(03-21-2018 08:47 AM)TribePride91 Wrote:  For basketball, we have never been anything close to any of the programs that were listed. For football, we are FCS for life and not at the top(or really near it). We might have a chance to make some significant inroads in the next 12-36 months. The gold rush game in basketball and Homecoming in football indicate that we are able to get a large number of fans out. But, those are not the dedicated fans. There has been a significant push at W&M for the students to try and support as many of their fellow classmates activities as possible. The students did a good job this season of supporting the basketball team when the students were actually in school. I think for football it was more of the significant down season especially for the offense that led to less support. I expect we will see a turnaround there. Having been a fan of both since I attended, I personally think basketball has the better current potential to yield significant positive exposure to the school. But, this is just a function of where things are currently. Had the 2009 team which was so fantastic won at Villanova and then defeated Montana in the championship, we possibly would be looking at a different scenario. But, maybe not. That 2009 championship did not really change the football program at Nova nor lead to better facilities or significantly better attendance. The Tribe saw great improvement in facilities after the successes of 2004 and 2009 without the championship.

In the case of men's basketball, the sustained success along with a CAA championship and an NCAA appearance might lead to something significant. I certainly would like to see it for the players, the staff(Tony especially), the current students and many of you. Let's just say that we think it would and we are ready to have arguments over whether it does. Let's plan to have the discussion in the fall of 2020(after our appearance in 2019).

The football team capitalized on their success in 2004 by getting donors to pay for lights and the Laycock center. By all accounts that didn't come from the school or the admin- it came from the program. The basketball program passed the hat to pay for a trip to Jamaica. You get what you fight for.

(03-21-2018 09:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

It should carry a lot of weight.

The difference between Tribe football and Cats football is minimal, and the Tribe is well-positioned to hold its own in this comparison.

Academically, the schools are equal as well.

W&M is public; Nova is Catholic. Not sure that means much in this discussion.

Now we come to hoops, and the gulf is vast. But does it have to be?

The first step is to emulate Gonzaga. Dominate the CAA.

The next step is to emulate Wichita ... maybe move up to a "better" conference.

Or just stay with the Gonzaga plan, and dominate the "lesser" conference.

Either way, after those two steps, the gulf with Nova has closed.

So, is there any will to take the first step ... domination of the CAA?

What would it take to dominate the CAA?

(03-21-2018 10:31 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 09:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

It should carry a lot of weight.

The difference between Tribe football and Cats football is minimal, and the Tribe is well-positioned to hold its own in this comparison.

Academically, the schools are equal as well.

W&M is public; Nova is Catholic. Not sure that means much in this discussion.

Now we come to hoops, and the gulf is vast. But does it have to be?

The first step is to emulate Gonzaga. Dominate the CAA.

The next step is to emulate Wichita ... maybe move up to a "better" conference.

Or just stay with the Gonzaga plan, and dominate the "lesser" conference.

Either way, after those two steps, the gulf with Nova has closed.

So, is there any will to take the first step ... domination of the CAA?

What would it take to dominate the CAA?

Gonzaga is a tough one to figure out. Other than the fact they play in a pretty weak league (historically speaking). They went to the NCAA tourney 4 times (3 in a row) BEFORE they pushed for and raised the money for their new facility. The old one seated around 4000 and the new one around 6000. They haven't missed the tourney since 98 and they were in the NIT that year.

(03-21-2018 10:00 AM)Rocco Wrote:  The football team capitalized on their success in 2004 by getting donors to pay for lights and the Laycock center. By all accounts that didn't come from the school or the admin- it came from the program. The basketball program passed the hat to pay for a trip to Jamaica. You get what you fight for.

There is some truth to this. Coach Laycock is tenacious advocate for the football program, and that just isn't Coach Shaver's style.

But I'm going to do a little fightin' this spring for something, and we'll see how it turns out. :)

(03-21-2018 10:44 AM)Got Ribe Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 10:00 AM)Rocco Wrote:  The football team capitalized on their success in 2004 by getting donors to pay for lights and the Laycock center. By all accounts that didn't come from the school or the admin- it came from the program. The basketball program passed the hat to pay for a trip to Jamaica. You get what you fight for.

There is some truth to this. Coach Laycock is tenacious advocate for the football program, and that just isn't Coach Shaver's style.

But I'm going to do a little fightin' this spring for something, and we'll see how it turns out. :)

Fight on

I want to be the Ribes when I grow up. Just sayin'.

(03-21-2018 10:31 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 09:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

It should carry a lot of weight.

The difference between Tribe football and Cats football is minimal, and the Tribe is well-positioned to hold its own in this comparison.

Academically, the schools are equal as well.

W&M is public; Nova is Catholic. Not sure that means much in this discussion.

Now we come to hoops, and the gulf is vast. But does it have to be?

The first step is to emulate Gonzaga. Dominate the CAA.

The next step is to emulate Wichita ... maybe move up to a "better" conference.

Or just stay with the Gonzaga plan, and dominate the "lesser" conference.

Either way, after those two steps, the gulf with Nova has closed.

So, is there any will to take the first step ... domination of the CAA?

What would it take to dominate the CAA?

The difference between Villanova basketball and WM basketball is just a BIT more significant than we’re making it out to be. Villanova has nearly 100 years of distinguished basketball history, and as part of the Big Five in Philly was essentially a major program that “mattered” nationally right from the start. They have multiple national titles, and had built in advantages from the beginning that WM has never had. I agree the comparison of the two school’s is similar, but that’s not a history and prestige gap that we are going to close in the coming decades, no matter how good we get.

But beyond that, I agree with nj’s broader points.

And really – the VU example does point to the tremendous value of a solid basketball program. Villanova is a solid academic school – but does anyone think that school would be what it is today without it’s basketball program? No way. And that’s not a criticism – good for them, it’s a fantastic selling point.

While we won’t get to Villanova’s level before 30 years of sustained success, there is no reason we shouldn’t be turning ourselves into a top CAA program and it is a worthwhile athletic investment that will benefit the school as a whole more than anything else we could do in sports.

(03-21-2018 11:54 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  The difference between Villanova basketball and WM basketball is just a BIT more significant than we’re making it out to be. Villanova has nearly 100 years of distinguished basketball history, and as part of the Big Five in Philly was essentially a major program that “mattered” nationally right from the start. They have multiple national titles, and had built in advantages from the beginning that WM has never had. I agree the comparison of the two school’s is similar, but that’s not a history and prestige gap that we are going to close in the coming decades, no matter how good we get.

No question but that this is a valid point.

However :-)

Penn, LaSalle, Temple, St. Joe's and Nova all have the same starting point, the same history, etc. ... yet, they are not all at the same place currently ... far from it.

Despite having the iconic Palestra as its home, Penn has voluntarily ceded the higher ground (it used to be Penn and Princeton every year with both schools being able to slay bigger schools) to Harvard.

LaSalle has really struggled and has no football.

St. Joe's has more success than LaSalle, but also has no football.

Temple is Temple. They're really trying, but in some respects, W&M has more advantages than Temple.

My point? Nova has parleyed Philly / Big Five to its advantage in a massive way. The other four Big Five schools, for various reasons, have not.

The Tribe has its own advantages which it has not, IMO, parleyed into greater success.

Finally, W&M and Nova have football and hoops. That is important to remember. That is a factor. Nova has done well in both. We need to do better, especially in hoops. It can be done ... if there is a will to do it.

It won't be done in a year, or five years, or ten years ... but the last five years have been a good start.

I think we should focus on winning the CAA before we even dream about nova bb status.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

(03-21-2018 10:31 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 09:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

It should carry a lot of weight.

The difference between Tribe football and Cats football is minimal, and the Tribe is well-positioned to hold its own in this comparison.

Academically, the schools are equal as well.

W&M is public; Nova is Catholic. Not sure that means much in this discussion.

Now we come to hoops, and the gulf is vast. But does it have to be?

The first step is to emulate Gonzaga. Dominate the CAA.

The next step is to emulate Wichita ... maybe move up to a "better" conference.

Or just stay with the Gonzaga plan, and dominate the "lesser" conference.

Either way, after those two steps, the gulf with Nova has closed.

So, is there any will to take the first step ... domination of the CAA?

What would it take to dominate the CAA?

Start by winning the CAA tournament(sorry, it was just sitting there...)? Every midmajor school has this exact conversation. It's easier said than done. Gonzaga almost has to be thrown out the window in this discussion. Mark Few is one of a kind in his refusal to go elsewhere, despite what I am sure are loads of cash being thrown his way to leave. And once you move away from Gonzaga, who do you model?

VCU is the closest I can see to a mid making the leap and staying there. And VCU has done it the only way it can be done. Have a very specific style that can work in the mid major realm(press) and stick with that style in new coaches to assure continuity. I honestly thought UNCW was on that path with Keatts, but we abandoned ship for some unknown reason. So now we get to hope for the best with no real plan in place to "dominate" the CAA. I don't see us in any better position than the Tribe with the exception of a singular focus on basketball, and I don't know if that's the magic ticket. Anyhow, here's to William and Mary joining the rest of the mids seeking mid major basketball glory....

(03-21-2018 12:48 PM)82hawk Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 10:31 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 09:26 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 06:13 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Villanova has won a national football title at the FCS level.

Did they? I will never give Villanova credit for 2009. I don't think that example carries a lot of weight on this board.

It should carry a lot of weight.

The difference between Tribe football and Cats football is minimal, and the Tribe is well-positioned to hold its own in this comparison.

Academically, the schools are equal as well.

W&M is public; Nova is Catholic. Not sure that means much in this discussion.

Now we come to hoops, and the gulf is vast. But does it have to be?

The first step is to emulate Gonzaga. Dominate the CAA.

The next step is to emulate Wichita ... maybe move up to a "better" conference.

Or just stay with the Gonzaga plan, and dominate the "lesser" conference.

Either way, after those two steps, the gulf with Nova has closed.

So, is there any will to take the first step ... domination of the CAA?

What would it take to dominate the CAA?

Start by winning the CAA tournament(sorry, it was just sitting there...)? Every midmajor school has this exact conversation. It's easier said than done. Gonzaga almost has to be thrown out the window in this discussion. Mark Few is one of a kind in his refusal to go elsewhere, despite what I am sure are loads of cash being thrown his way to leave. And once you move away from Gonzaga, who do you model?

VCU is the closest I can see to a mid making the leap and staying there. And VCU has done it the only way it can be done. Have a very specific style that can work in the mid major realm(press) and stick with that style in new coaches to assure continuity. I honestly thought UNCW was on that path with Keatts, but we abandoned ship for some unknown reason. So now we get to hope for the best with no real plan in place to "dominate" the CAA. I don't see us in any better position than the Tribe with the exception of a singular focus on basketball, and I don't know if that's the magic ticket. Anyhow, here's to William and Mary joining the rest of the mids seeking mid major basketball glory....

VCU is also one of the few ‘build it and they will come’ examples. They highly leveraged student fees to build the Siegel Center (and other facilities) and that will never happen again, especially in Virginia.

(03-21-2018 07:55 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  To me, increased visibility from making waves in the NCAAT isn't about increasing student application rates. It means increased fan & student interest home and away. Increased alumni interest and giving. Increased respect for the program and conference. NCAAT share money which is invaluable to grow the program. All of these lead to an infusion of $$ which leads to better recruiting budgets, $$ for arena renovation and practice facilities, and the clout to attract sexier home opponents.

This is how I feel, too. I think that NCAA tournament exposure will lead to more alumni giving across the board, not just to athletics. When people hear about their school, they're more open to strengthening their connection with a donation.

(03-21-2018 06:31 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-21-2018 07:55 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  To me, increased visibility from making waves in the NCAAT isn't about increasing student application rates. It means increased fan & student interest home and away. Increased alumni interest and giving. Increased respect for the program and conference. NCAAT share money which is invaluable to grow the program. All of these lead to an infusion of $$ which leads to better recruiting budgets, $$ for arena renovation and practice facilities, and the clout to attract sexier home opponents.

This is how I feel, too. I think that NCAA tournament exposure will lead to more alumni giving across the board, not just to athletics. When people hear about their school, they're more open to strengthening their connection with a donation.

Spot on, Mr.J.

(03-21-2018 12:29 PM)nj alum Wrote:  My point? Nova has parleyed Philly / Big Five to its advantage in a massive way. The other four Big Five schools, for various reasons, have not.

Um, it is not the Big Five relationship that Villanova has used to get to and stay at the top. It is its Big East relationship ($$$$$$$$$$$$) that it has used to stay at the top. That ($$$$) is how all the top schools stay at the top and is why they guard their NCAA shares (and TV exposure) so zealously and jealously.

Nova was the only Big Five school in the Eastern 8.

They then went to the Big East, and Temple took their Eastern 8 spot.

Temple's been chasing Nova ever since, and for one brief moment, had landed its hoops program with Nova before the split happened.

Five schools in the Big Five. Nova's made the most of it with their conference affiliation, etc, etc.

Wake forest, though private, has a smaller enrollment and lower tuition than W&M. Yet they find a way to support football and basketball at the highest level. The reason is ACC membership.

So, ya'll are saying that conference membership matters? Who's been talking about conference realignment since ... forever?

So, we should join the ACC ... which I have been in support of since ... forever!

Of course, the response is "be realistic".

We can't try to be Nova ... we can't try to be Gonzaga ... we can't try to be Wichita ... we can't try to be VCU ... we can't try to be Navy (football side). Our new mantra- WCT - we can't try!

Folks, instead of focusing on what we can't do, and what we don't have, let's focus on what we can do, and what we have.

We are in a conference that, if we choose, we can dominate. Top campus. Top academics. One of the best home atmospheres in the CAA. Excellent seating capacity. Nice facility.

So far, we've chosen to compete, but not dominate.

Tony, what do you need to dominate the CAA? Let's get it done.

If we dominate our conference, doors to other conferences may open.

Too much "can't do" around here, too much nitpicking, and not enough "can do".

(03-22-2018 01:46 PM)nj alum Wrote:  So, ya'll are saying that conference membership matters? Who's been talking about conference realignment since ... forever?

So, we should join the ACC ... which I have been in support of since ... forever!

Of course, the response is "be realistic".

We can't try to be Nova ... we can't try to be Gonzaga ... we can't try to be Wichita ... we can't try to be VCU ... we can't try to be Navy (football side). Our new mantra- WCT - we can't try!

Folks, instead of focusing on what we can't do, and what we don't have, let's focus on what we can do, and what we have.

We are in a conference that, if we choose, we can dominate. Top campus. Top academics. One of the best home atmospheres in the CAA. Excellent seating capacity. Nice facility.

So far, we've chosen to compete, but not dominate.

Tony, what do you need to dominate the CAA? Let's get it done.

If we dominate our conference, doors to other conferences may open.

Too much "can't do" around here, too much nitpicking, and not enough "can do".

You certainly have me pumped up!!

(03-22-2018 01:46 PM)nj alum Wrote:  So far, we've chosen to compete, but not dominate.

NJ alum I am in full agreement with your goal and prescription, but have we really chosen to compete? Choosing to compete means funding your program at equitable levels - at a minimum in the mid-portion of the conference and ideally at one of the higher levels. It means not nickel and diming your program by backing out of a cheap pre-season overseas trip that had been promised to players - something that is the bare minimum at the majority of D1 athletic departments that give a crap about their basketball program.

It does not mean getting lucky with an excellent coach who works miracles on a tiny budget and with poor facilities and decides to stick around far longer than we deserve him.

Let's have this discussion on the proper terms - the next step for us is not choosing to dominate the conference (which we've never won a single time). It is merely CHOOSING TO COMPETE for the first time. To date, we have not done so.

And I suspect that if we do not do so now, we are headed right back where we came from after Tony retires.

Shaver has given us an incredible opportunity and we can use it to get up into the upper echelon of the conference consistently, IF we properly support the program. To date, I see no evidence that is going to happen though. I hope I am wrong.

The last 5 pages of this thread could be subtitled "champagne wishes, caviar dreams, Steel Reserve budget".