I'm surprised no one has talked about this yet - 17 dead and I think 17 are still missing in Montecito, CA in Santa Barbara County. It's a pretty affluent area along the coast and I believe I've read some celebrities live out there. It could end up being California's deadliest mudslide ever (but not the worst in U.S. history - 40-plus people died in Washington in 2014).

I think I read parts of that area got up to 4 inches of rain in 24 hours (most got less - 1 to 3 inches tops) but the problem is that the area that was affected the worst had been hit by a fire earlier last year so the ground was pretty barren to begin with.

The other problem is that people in the area didn't heed the warnings. Some were under voluntary evacuation and others were under mandatory evacuation, but many had evacuated for the fires late last year and didn't suffer any damage so they ignored the warnings this time.

It has been a crazy winter weather year already. The thing that perplexes me the most is they said La Nina would mean we're in for a dry and warmer winter than normal for most of the southern United States. It hasn't been incredibly wet but it's not been dry either, and temperature wise, it's been colder than normal in Texas for sure.

Where do mudslides fit in the insurance umbrella? Are they covered under your standard homeowners insurance, or do you need a separate flood insurance-type policy?

One of the issues that causes this to be dramatically worse are left wingers who keep fighting the government on prescribed controlled burns to keep woody material down. The area needs a fast burn every few years. Without it, the area gets overgrown with woody brushes which shade out grasses. During drier times, these overgrown woody plants cause super heated wildfires that burns the area so extensively that it can be some time before anything grows back. The natural grasses would buffet the rain, and the roots would help prevent erosion. But since the grasses were overgrown by the woody material, rainfall that hits a hard burned area on a hill becomes cutting fluid to etch into the side of the hill, causing the massive failures and mudslides.

(01-10-2018 09:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I'm surprised no one has talked about this yet - 17 dead and I think 17 are still missing in Montecito, CA in Santa Barbara County. It's a pretty affluent area along the coast and I believe I've read some celebrities live out there. It could end up being California's deadliest mudslide ever (but not the worst in U.S. history - 40-plus people died in Washington in 2014).

I think I read parts of that area got up to 4 inches of rain in 24 hours (most got less - 1 to 3 inches tops) but the problem is that the area that was affected the worst had been hit by a fire earlier last year so the ground was pretty barren to begin with.

The other problem is that people in the area didn't heed the warnings. Some were under voluntary evacuation and others were under mandatory evacuation, but many had evacuated for the fires late last year and didn't suffer any damage so they ignored the warnings this time.

It has been a crazy winter weather year already. The thing that perplexes me the most is they said La Nina would mean we're in for a dry and warmer winter than normal for most of the southern United States. It hasn't been incredibly wet but it's not been dry either, and temperature wise, it's been colder than normal in Texas for sure.

Where do mudslides fit in the insurance umbrella? Are they covered under your standard homeowners insurance, or do you need a separate flood insurance-type policy?

I was in LA last week. The area around the Getty Museum looked primed for a mudslide after the burns in that area. Santa Barbara got hit worse with the fires.

(01-10-2018 10:11 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  One of the issues that causes this to be dramatically worse are left wingers who keep fighting the government on prescribed controlled burns to keep woody material down. The area needs a fast burn every few years. Without it, the area gets overgrown with woody brushes which shade out grasses. During drier times, these overgrown woody plants cause super heated wildfires that burns the area so extensively that it can be some time before anything grows back. The natural grasses would buffet the rain, and the roots would help prevent erosion. But since the grasses were overgrown by the woody material, rainfall that hits a hard burned area on a hill becomes cutting fluid to etch into the side of the hill, causing the massive failures and mudslides.

Exactly! The leftist fight against prescribed fire has never made sense to me since fire is a natural part of the environment.

We enrolled in the WHIP (wildlife habitat improvement program) in conjunction with our landowner on our deer club. Because we did regular burns on a rotational basis when a neighboring property got burnt to a crisp destroying a couple hundred acres of marketable timber the local FD & SC Forestry Commission was able to stop it at our property line by reinforcing existing fire breaks. Our property owner lost minimal timber while the neighbor pretty much lost everything he couldn't salvage into mulch.

The insanity of fighting against controlled burns and clearing has got to stop.

Quote:LOS ANGELES — California's seemingly endless cycle of wildfires is prompting authorities to make plans to set more "controlled burns" to thin forests choked with dead trees and withered underbrush that serves as kindling to feed monster blazes that force entire communities to flee, destroy homes and take lives.

Fighting wildfires that burn out of control is extremely expensive and even when authorities make mammoth efforts to put out the blazes, they can still cause expensive property and infrastructure losses when the flames reach populated areas. In October, thousands of California homes burned and 44 people died from wildfires in the state's most renowned wine region north of San Francisco.

This week, while a fire northwest of Los Angeles still raged after destroying more than 700 homes, the U.S. Forest Service and the state fire agency warned that the threat will remain high even after that blaze is put out because of an estimated 129 million trees that died in California over the last year from drought and beetle infestation.


"It's fuel just waiting to go up in flames," said Daniel Berlant, assistant deputy director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The agencies are planning more aggressive use of so-called prescribed burns, when fire prevention experts identify areas with bone dry "surface fuels" and send in crews to burn it or clear it away using chain saws and heavy equipment.

The state since July 1 has burned 13 square miles (37 square kilometres) of surface fuels such as dry needles, leaves and bark that accumulated over the years and can easily ignite, turning forests into powder kegs, Berlant said. That's more than double the amount cleared three years ago.

The goal for 2018 is to burn at least 31 square miles (80 square kilometres) and for the clearing crews to clean up another 31 square miles. To protect population centres, state and local authorities are also increasing inspections to make sure residential and commercial property owners are maintaining cleared spaces required by law between their properties and forestland.

California to Employ Controlled Burns to Help Fight Wildfires

I can't find any information about controlled burns preventing mudslides. Does anyone have any source information on that? Thanks.

(01-11-2018 12:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Quote:LOS ANGELES — California's seemingly endless cycle of wildfires is prompting authorities to make plans to set more "controlled burns" to thin forests choked with dead trees and withered underbrush that serves as kindling to feed monster blazes that force entire communities to flee, destroy homes and take lives.

Fighting wildfires that burn out of control is extremely expensive and even when authorities make mammoth efforts to put out the blazes, they can still cause expensive property and infrastructure losses when the flames reach populated areas. In October, thousands of California homes burned and 44 people died from wildfires in the state's most renowned wine region north of San Francisco.

This week, while a fire northwest of Los Angeles still raged after destroying more than 700 homes, the U.S. Forest Service and the state fire agency warned that the threat will remain high even after that blaze is put out because of an estimated 129 million trees that died in California over the last year from drought and beetle infestation.


"It's fuel just waiting to go up in flames," said Daniel Berlant, assistant deputy director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The agencies are planning more aggressive use of so-called prescribed burns, when fire prevention experts identify areas with bone dry "surface fuels" and send in crews to burn it or clear it away using chain saws and heavy equipment.

The state since July 1 has burned 13 square miles (37 square kilometres) of surface fuels such as dry needles, leaves and bark that accumulated over the years and can easily ignite, turning forests into powder kegs, Berlant said. That's more than double the amount cleared three years ago.

The goal for 2018 is to burn at least 31 square miles (80 square kilometres) and for the clearing crews to clean up another 31 square miles. To protect population centres, state and local authorities are also increasing inspections to make sure residential and commercial property owners are maintaining cleared spaces required by law between their properties and forestland.

California to Employ Controlled Burns to Help Fight Wildfires

I can't find any information about controlled burns preventing mudslides. Does anyone have any source information on that? Thanks.

Yes. I just gave it to you.

(01-11-2018 12:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Quote:LOS ANGELES — California's seemingly endless cycle of wildfires is prompting authorities to make plans to set more "controlled burns" to thin forests choked with dead trees and withered underbrush that serves as kindling to feed monster blazes that force entire communities to flee, destroy homes and take lives.

Fighting wildfires that burn out of control is extremely expensive and even when authorities make mammoth efforts to put out the blazes, they can still cause expensive property and infrastructure losses when the flames reach populated areas. In October, thousands of California homes burned and 44 people died from wildfires in the state's most renowned wine region north of San Francisco.

This week, while a fire northwest of Los Angeles still raged after destroying more than 700 homes, the U.S. Forest Service and the state fire agency warned that the threat will remain high even after that blaze is put out because of an estimated 129 million trees that died in California over the last year from drought and beetle infestation.


"It's fuel just waiting to go up in flames," said Daniel Berlant, assistant deputy director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The agencies are planning more aggressive use of so-called prescribed burns, when fire prevention experts identify areas with bone dry "surface fuels" and send in crews to burn it or clear it away using chain saws and heavy equipment.

The state since July 1 has burned 13 square miles (37 square kilometres) of surface fuels such as dry needles, leaves and bark that accumulated over the years and can easily ignite, turning forests into powder kegs, Berlant said. That's more than double the amount cleared three years ago.

The goal for 2018 is to burn at least 31 square miles (80 square kilometres) and for the clearing crews to clean up another 31 square miles. To protect population centres, state and local authorities are also increasing inspections to make sure residential and commercial property owners are maintaining cleared spaces required by law between their properties and forestland.

California to Employ Controlled Burns to Help Fight Wildfires

I can't find any information about controlled burns preventing mudslides. Does anyone have any source information on that? Thanks.

No but controlled fires in less windy conditions when more moisture is available will reduce the chances for these huge almost annual fires to flourish with the under brush, thus reducing the chance of mudslides when the heavy rains do return.

(01-11-2018 12:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 12:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Quote:LOS ANGELES — California's seemingly endless cycle of wildfires is prompting authorities to make plans to set more "controlled burns" to thin forests choked with dead trees and withered underbrush that serves as kindling to feed monster blazes that force entire communities to flee, destroy homes and take lives.

Fighting wildfires that burn out of control is extremely expensive and even when authorities make mammoth efforts to put out the blazes, they can still cause expensive property and infrastructure losses when the flames reach populated areas. In October, thousands of California homes burned and 44 people died from wildfires in the state's most renowned wine region north of San Francisco.

This week, while a fire northwest of Los Angeles still raged after destroying more than 700 homes, the U.S. Forest Service and the state fire agency warned that the threat will remain high even after that blaze is put out because of an estimated 129 million trees that died in California over the last year from drought and beetle infestation.


"It's fuel just waiting to go up in flames," said Daniel Berlant, assistant deputy director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The agencies are planning more aggressive use of so-called prescribed burns, when fire prevention experts identify areas with bone dry "surface fuels" and send in crews to burn it or clear it away using chain saws and heavy equipment.

The state since July 1 has burned 13 square miles (37 square kilometres) of surface fuels such as dry needles, leaves and bark that accumulated over the years and can easily ignite, turning forests into powder kegs, Berlant said. That's more than double the amount cleared three years ago.

The goal for 2018 is to burn at least 31 square miles (80 square kilometres) and for the clearing crews to clean up another 31 square miles. To protect population centres, state and local authorities are also increasing inspections to make sure residential and commercial property owners are maintaining cleared spaces required by law between their properties and forestland.

California to Employ Controlled Burns to Help Fight Wildfires

I can't find any information about controlled burns preventing mudslides. Does anyone have any source information on that? Thanks.

Yes. I just gave it to you.

I asked for sourced information...such as a study or the opinion of an expert, that's all. What you posted seems reasonable, but I was hoping to read something with a little more information.

(01-11-2018 12:49 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 12:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 12:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Quote:LOS ANGELES — California's seemingly endless cycle of wildfires is prompting authorities to make plans to set more "controlled burns" to thin forests choked with dead trees and withered underbrush that serves as kindling to feed monster blazes that force entire communities to flee, destroy homes and take lives.

Fighting wildfires that burn out of control is extremely expensive and even when authorities make mammoth efforts to put out the blazes, they can still cause expensive property and infrastructure losses when the flames reach populated areas. In October, thousands of California homes burned and 44 people died from wildfires in the state's most renowned wine region north of San Francisco.

This week, while a fire northwest of Los Angeles still raged after destroying more than 700 homes, the U.S. Forest Service and the state fire agency warned that the threat will remain high even after that blaze is put out because of an estimated 129 million trees that died in California over the last year from drought and beetle infestation.


"It's fuel just waiting to go up in flames," said Daniel Berlant, assistant deputy director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The agencies are planning more aggressive use of so-called prescribed burns, when fire prevention experts identify areas with bone dry "surface fuels" and send in crews to burn it or clear it away using chain saws and heavy equipment.

The state since July 1 has burned 13 square miles (37 square kilometres) of surface fuels such as dry needles, leaves and bark that accumulated over the years and can easily ignite, turning forests into powder kegs, Berlant said. That's more than double the amount cleared three years ago.

The goal for 2018 is to burn at least 31 square miles (80 square kilometres) and for the clearing crews to clean up another 31 square miles. To protect population centres, state and local authorities are also increasing inspections to make sure residential and commercial property owners are maintaining cleared spaces required by law between their properties and forestland.

California to Employ Controlled Burns to Help Fight Wildfires

I can't find any information about controlled burns preventing mudslides. Does anyone have any source information on that? Thanks.

Yes. I just gave it to you.

I asked for sourced information...such as a study or the opinion of an expert, that's all. What you posted seems reasonable, but I was hoping to read something with a little more information.

I have worked with TNC Alabama and their controlled burns. They have asked me my opinion on certain prescribed burns because I AM the expert on certain endangered plant species in their state.

(01-11-2018 12:52 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 12:49 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 12:45 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(01-11-2018 12:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Quote:LOS ANGELES — California's seemingly endless cycle of wildfires is prompting authorities to make plans to set more "controlled burns" to thin forests choked with dead trees and withered underbrush that serves as kindling to feed monster blazes that force entire communities to flee, destroy homes and take lives.

Fighting wildfires that burn out of control is extremely expensive and even when authorities make mammoth efforts to put out the blazes, they can still cause expensive property and infrastructure losses when the flames reach populated areas. In October, thousands of California homes burned and 44 people died from wildfires in the state's most renowned wine region north of San Francisco.

This week, while a fire northwest of Los Angeles still raged after destroying more than 700 homes, the U.S. Forest Service and the state fire agency warned that the threat will remain high even after that blaze is put out because of an estimated 129 million trees that died in California over the last year from drought and beetle infestation.


"It's fuel just waiting to go up in flames," said Daniel Berlant, assistant deputy director of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The agencies are planning more aggressive use of so-called prescribed burns, when fire prevention experts identify areas with bone dry "surface fuels" and send in crews to burn it or clear it away using chain saws and heavy equipment.

The state since July 1 has burned 13 square miles (37 square kilometres) of surface fuels such as dry needles, leaves and bark that accumulated over the years and can easily ignite, turning forests into powder kegs, Berlant said. That's more than double the amount cleared three years ago.

The goal for 2018 is to burn at least 31 square miles (80 square kilometres) and for the clearing crews to clean up another 31 square miles. To protect population centres, state and local authorities are also increasing inspections to make sure residential and commercial property owners are maintaining cleared spaces required by law between their properties and forestland.

California to Employ Controlled Burns to Help Fight Wildfires

I can't find any information about controlled burns preventing mudslides. Does anyone have any source information on that? Thanks.

Yes. I just gave it to you.

I asked for sourced information...such as a study or the opinion of an expert, that's all. What you posted seems reasonable, but I was hoping to read something with a little more information.

I have worked with TNC Alabama and their controlled burns. They have asked me my opinion on certain prescribed burns because I AM the expert on certain endangered plant species in their state.

Well then.

(01-10-2018 09:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Where do mudslides fit in the insurance umbrella? Are they covered under your standard homeowners insurance, or do you need a separate flood insurance-type policy?

Mudslides are a peril that is not usually covered by a normal Homeowners policy. You would need a DIC policy that names mudslide specifically.

However there are a lot of other factors that go into the cause of the mudslide, and that could cause some HO policies to respond to losses. Quite a tough situation.

For the poster who tried to make 1+1 =3

https://www.army.mil/article/183980/pres..._ecosystem

Quote:Allen Braswell, installation forester and wildland fire manager, Natural Resources Branch, Directorate of Public Works, defined prescribed burns as "a fire that we put in the woods under a prescribed set of weather conditions and other factors to meet a prescription for a task we're trying to accomplish in the woods, such as reducing fuels."

Braswell said that reducing fuels is the most important objective of prescribed burns. By reducing fuels, controlled burns reduce the risk of a wildfire breaking out in military training areas that are inherently a fire risk.

"From a safety concern, the No. 1 thing is that the fuel loads would build up so that if there was a wildfire, it would be a lot harder to control," Braswell said. "Us burning this stuff and reducing the fuel lowers that risk that if we have a wildfire that it will turn into a catastrophic wildfire."

http://extension.colostate.edu/soil-eros...ire-6-308/

Quote:The potential for severe soil erosion is a consequence of wildfire because as a fire burns it destroys plant material and the litter layer. Shrubs, forbs, grasses, trees, and the litter layer break up the intensity of severe rainstorms. Plant roots stabilize the soil, and stems and leaves slow the water to give it time to percolate into the soil profile. Fire can destroy this soil protection.

Quote:In severe, slow-moving fires, the combustion of vegetative materials creates a gas that penetrates the soil profile. As the soil cools, this gas condenses and forms a waxy coating.
This causes the soil to repel water – a phenomena called hydrophobicity. This hydrophobic condition increases the rate of water runoff. Percolation of water into the soil profile is
reduced, making it difficult for seeds to germinate and for the roots of surviving plants to obtain moisture.

Hydrophobic soils do not form in every instance. Factors contributing to their formation are: a thick layer of litter before the fire; a severe slow-moving surface and crown fire;
and coarse textured soils such as sand or decomposed granite. (Finely textured soils such as clay are less prone to hydrophobicity.)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...021555001/

Quote:A perfect storm of land development, fire, wind and then rain conspired to create the deadly avalanche of mud and debris that leveled homes in Southern California this week.

The area was recently ravaged by wind-driven wildfires that included the Thomas Fire, the state's biggest on record, that left hillsides in places like Montecito vulnerable for the destruction brought by the first downpours of the region's rainy season.

Landslides, mudslides and debris flows are caused by disturbances in the natural stability of a slope. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warns what may seem obvious — the slides can accompany heavy rains or follow droughts, earthquakes or volcanic eruptions.

"Areas where wildfires or human modification of the land have destroyed vegetation on slopes are particularly vulnerable to landslides during and after heavy rains," the CDC warns in its fact sheet on the events. The CDC says such flows result in 25 to 50 deaths each year.

The U.S. Geological Survey, in a study of wildfires and debris flows in Southern California, notes that post-fire debris flows are most common within two years of a fire and are usually triggered by heavy rainfall.

Quote:The flows are triggered either by surface erosion resulting from rainfall runoff or by landsliding that results from infiltration of rainfall into the ground, USGS says. The former is more common, USGS says, because fires actually reduce the infiltration capacity of soils, which increases runoff and erosion.