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College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
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Post: #31
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:48 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:46 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It would be equally as unfair to put a 12-0 team that had the easiest schedule in college football in the mix.

I'm not alluding to UCF in that statement but speaking generally.

There isn't a "fair" way to do it that everybody in college football would call fair.
Yes, there is. All conference champions get playoff spots like any real sport.

So if Ark-State wins its conference with a 7-5 record and makes the playoffs, while 12-1 Clemson doesn't win its conference so doesn't make the playoffs, that's "fair"?

In most every other sport, that's the status quo. It's not exactly uncommon for undeserving teams to make the playoffs over more deserving teams, look at MLB, where about a quarter century ago a 103-win team missed the playoffs and most years a good team is left out in favor of a weaker one. The same holds true in the NFL many, many times over the years and even the NBA has suffered this because the conferences aren't balanced.
01-05-2018 11:12 AM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
With all of that said, if we get 8 teams, ii think a compromise position would be in. Independents or Group of 5 champions would be in automatically if ranked higher than a power 5 champion or in the top 14 overall (similar to the BCS).
01-05-2018 11:13 AM
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ark30inf Online
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Post: #33
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 11:01 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I guess guys this is how I differ. Winning the national title does not matter to me half as much as how I enjoy the season and I absolutely love the college football set-up. Start having any conference with an auto bid or go beyind 4 teams (2 or none was better) and much of the things I lovr about the season are downplayed and this is just like any other sport. I get other perspectives, but this is the sport i fell in love with.
See, for us, playoff access would make the regular season much more important than it is now.

Our fans who adopt our state's P5 team would be much more likely stay home and help us grow rather than adopt a school they didn't attend because of alleged "relevancy".

I'm sure Ohio State fans are emotionally tied to the way its always been done, but its not all that great for fans of about half of FBS.

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01-05-2018 11:16 AM
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ark30inf Online
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Post: #34
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 11:13 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  With all of that said, if we get 8 teams, ii think a compromise position would be in. Independents or Group of 5 champions would be in automatically if ranked higher than a power 5 champion or in the top 14 overall (similar to the BCS).

I'm a G5 guy. But even I wince at leaving out a P5 conference champ for a G5 because of a "ranking".

Rankings are subjective. Thats why I prefer a set path. Win your conference and you are in and get your shot. All about what the players do...not pollsters.



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01-05-2018 11:20 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Online
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Post: #35
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 11:10 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 10:52 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  All conference champs in is only "fair" if comparable schedules.

What i would really like is a de-emphasis on the national title and more emphasis on the major bowls. We are at risking of hurting a lot of thinga that make college football sppecial

This doesn't sound right coming from a fan of a team in the conference which...
...broke up the Pitt/Penn State rivalry
...then broke up the Nebraska / Oklahoma rivalry
...then pulled Maryland from it's50-year conference home

With all those disruptions to OTHER conferences, pardon me if I just don't see the Big Ten as the champions of college football tradition.
07-coffee3

Maryland was actually in the ACC even longer: 61 years from 1953 to 2014. They were affiliated in the same conference with the four NC schools, Clemson, and Virginia (except for the very first year of the ACC) for an additional 32 years dating to 1921 in the old SoCon.
01-05-2018 11:25 AM
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_C2_ Online
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Post: #36
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 10:55 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 10:44 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:48 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:46 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It would be equally as unfair to put a 12-0 team that had the easiest schedule in college football in the mix.

I'm not alluding to UCF in that statement but speaking generally.

There isn't a "fair" way to do it that everybody in college football would call fair.
Yes, there is. All conference champions get playoff spots like any real sport.

So if Ark-State wins its conference with a 7-5 record and makes the playoffs, while 12-1 Clemson doesn't win its conference so doesn't make the playoffs, that's "fair"?

In real sports you generally have division champions and a couple of wildcards. This is not unusual or "unfair".

What makes it seem "unfair" in college football is that the cartel structure has stunted any potential parity between conferences and widened the gap.

LSU, Bama, and the rest of the elites have extreme institutionalized recruiting advantages, one of which is the fact that they have playoff access and others do not.

If FBS football became like any other sports league in the world then the "have-nots" would recruit better due to playoff access, increased attention, and relevancy. With this, the perception of "unfair" would decrease.

How sports leagues should operate is pretty straightforward. Half the league having no championship access before a game is played is not how they are supposed to work.



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You act as if those advantages are unearned, as if one or two things were changed certain programs would become equals.

That's just not true.

It is situation to situation. Some earned or inherited it. Some were just lucky or unlucky when the game of musical chairs stopped and they did or didn't have a chair. Houston has earned everything it's gotten the last 50 years. Baylor was granted a spot at the table due to politics and the same for Tech to a lesser extent. Wake Forest and Duke joined the right club at the right time, when it could just as easily be Davidson as a big boy when the SoCon split. Rutgers obviously had academic prowess because I scratch my head thinking of what else they offer.
01-05-2018 11:27 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #37
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 10:44 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:48 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:46 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It would be equally as unfair to put a 12-0 team that had the easiest schedule in college football in the mix.

I'm not alluding to UCF in that statement but speaking generally.

There isn't a "fair" way to do it that everybody in college football would call fair.
Yes, there is. All conference champions get playoff spots like any real sport.

So if Ark-State wins its conference with a 7-5 record and makes the playoffs, while 12-1 Clemson doesn't win its conference so doesn't make the playoffs, that's "fair"?

In real sports you generally have division champions and a couple of wildcards. This is not unusual or "unfair".

What makes it seem "unfair" in college football is that the cartel structure has stunted any potential parity between conferences and widened the gap.

LSU, Bama, and the rest of the elites have extreme institutionalized recruiting advantages, one of which is the fact that they have playoff access and others do not.

How many wild cards? Not enough to cover the disparity. The NCAA hoops tourney works because there are enough "wild cards" to let all reasonably deserving non-champs in. Football can't do that so auto-bids for champs is a no-go.

Recruiting? LSU and Bama have massive recruiting advantages over Ark-State not because of CFP or BCS, they've always had it, because they have built up huge fan bases over 120 years of playing football and thus have created an extremely attractive platform - in terms of home attendance, TV, and media attention - for players to play on.

Nobody gave that to them. Heck, you go to LSU's Tiger Stadium, which now seats 103,000, and you can see the outline of the original stadium built in the 1920s that seated 12,000.

And that 12,000-seater was built 30+ years after they started playing football. Before then, they played in a place that was even smaller.
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2018 11:39 AM by quo vadis.)
01-05-2018 11:30 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #38
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 11:01 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I guess guys this is how I differ. Winning the national title does not matter to me half as much as how I enjoy the season and I absolutely love the college football set-up. Start having any conference with an auto bid or go beyind 4 teams (2 or none was better) and much of the things I lovr about the season are downplayed and this is just like any other sport. I get other perspectives, but this is the sport i fell in love with.

Lots of truth in that. E.g., when i compare the FCS post-season and the FBS post-season, I just like FBS lots more. It's a lot more fun watching all those bowl games than watching the FCS playoffs. I don't watch any FCS playoffs until the semis and maybe not then, the only one i watch for sure is the final.

Any playoff expansion that wipes out bowl season is IMO too high a price to pay to create more 'fairness' or whatever. Bottom line is that the current setup produces the best team as champ anyway.
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2018 11:34 AM by quo vadis.)
01-05-2018 11:33 AM
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Zombiewoof Offline
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Post: #39
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 10:57 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  All relevant points. But you also cannot ignore the institutionalized advantages that an Alabama has over a UCF.

Due to the system Alabama has a recruiting advantage over UCF because it has playoff access and UCF does not.

Due to the system Alabama generally has additional home games against ranked foes built-in that UCF does not enjoy.

There are others.

So yes, Alabama is a much better team than UCF is, there is no denying it. But the system is set up to make it easy for Alabama to be a much better team than UCF...in fact almost certain to be a much better team than UCF...every year...no matter what UCF does.

So you have to take that into account when you judge their relative accomplishments.

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So, if I understand you correctly, you believe UCF should be judged on some sort of sliding scale because of inherent disadvantages created by "the system?"

Yes, Alabama has advantages over G5 schools. Do you believe that began with the advent of the playoff structure? Do you sincerely believe the Arkansas State would magically recruit as well as Arkansas if ASU had a legitimate path to the playoffs?

Alabama does not have a recruiting advantage over UCF because it has playoff access and UCF does not. It has a recruiting advantage because of many factors, including having played big boy championship football long before UCF started competing in Division I in 1996. Gifting the G5 schools a playoff spot doesn't change the fact that most highly recruited players are going to want to play in the SEC, Big 10, or ACC instead of the Sun Belt, AAC, or CUSA.

The notion that Western Michigan would somehow begin to recruit on the same level as Michigan if they only had a path to the national championship is patently absurd.

Your assertion about home games against ranked opponents is another straw man. That is a direct result of conference membership. Why do you think any G5 school would jump at the chance to move up to a P5 conference? It isn't because they would have a shot at the national title.

By virtue of their time as major conference football programs (as well as things like flagship status), most P5 schools will maintain recruiting advantages over G5 schools and "the system" won't have anything to do with it. Even when UCF and or USF join a P5 conference (which I expect within the next 7-8 years), they will still have Florida, Florida State and Miami to recruit against, plus all of the other P5 schools that recruit Florida. I would guess that they would still be years away from recruiting at the same level as those schools.

I think very highly of the things that UCF and USF have accomplished in their short time in Division I football. IMO, they will one day be national forces to contend with and "the system" will work in their favor. These schools have played DI football for around 20 years or less, so a little patience seems to be in order.
01-05-2018 11:35 AM
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Post: #40
RE: College football doesn't fairly name a national champion
(01-05-2018 11:30 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 10:44 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 10:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:48 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  
(01-05-2018 09:46 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  It would be equally as unfair to put a 12-0 team that had the easiest schedule in college football in the mix.

I'm not alluding to UCF in that statement but speaking generally.

There isn't a "fair" way to do it that everybody in college football would call fair.
Yes, there is. All conference champions get playoff spots like any real sport.

So if Ark-State wins its conference with a 7-5 record and makes the playoffs, while 12-1 Clemson doesn't win its conference so doesn't make the playoffs, that's "fair"?

In real sports you generally have division champions and a couple of wildcards. This is not unusual or "unfair".

What makes it seem "unfair" in college football is that the cartel structure has stunted any potential parity between conferences and widened the gap.

LSU, Bama, and the rest of the elites have extreme institutionalized recruiting advantages, one of which is the fact that they have playoff access and others do not.

How many wild cards? Not enough to cover the disparity. The NCAA hoops tourney works because there are enough "wild cards" to let all reasonably deserving non-champs in. Football can't do that so auto-bids for champs is a no-go.

Recruiting? LSU and Bama have massive recruiting advantages over Ark-State because they have built up huge fan bases over 120 years of playing football and thus have created an extremely attractive platform - in terms of home attendance, TV, and media attention - for players to play on.

And they maintain those advantages by having a cartel that freezes those advantages in place and limits others from following and acheving the same level of success.

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01-05-2018 11:35 AM
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