The unofficial online home for fans of the Western Michigan University Broncos. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

Funny irony about Utah knocking off Alabama in the Sugar Bowl 8 years ago and completing a perfect season (13-0):
http://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?id=3815656

(01-05-2018 05:27 PM)induction Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 03:31 PM)george14 Wrote:  No, a G5 team, or a P5 champion who has multiple losses, does not deserve a chance to play for the National Championship.

Wholeheartedly disagree with this sentiment. Every single team deserves a chance to play for a championship. If a system allows a team to win every game and not be called champion, then that system is inadequate.

I would agree with you but it's more complex than that in CFB. You only have 12 games with 130+ teams. The teams the MAC plays vs. the teams the SEC plays are not equal at all. An 11-1 SEC team compared to a 12-0 MAC team is not equal at all. The level of competition is insanely different.

(01-08-2018 12:27 PM)george14 Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 05:27 PM)induction Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 03:31 PM)george14 Wrote:  No, a G5 team, or a P5 champion who has multiple losses, does not deserve a chance to play for the National Championship.

Wholeheartedly disagree with this sentiment. Every single team deserves a chance to play for a championship. If a system allows a team to win every game and not be called champion, then that system is inadequate.

I would agree with you but it's more complex than that in CFB. You only have 12 games with 130+ teams. The teams the MAC plays vs. the teams the SEC plays are not equal at all. An 11-1 SEC team compared to a 12-0 MAC team is not equal at all. The level of competition is insanely different.

Bull.

With your logic, Gonzaga would never have been able to participate in the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament. Or VCU, or George Mason, or Kent State....

Every conference champion deserves a chance and should receive an automatic bid to a legitimate playoff.

What we have now is entirely subjective, unprincipled and unethical.

(01-08-2018 12:27 PM)george14 Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 05:27 PM)induction Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 03:31 PM)george14 Wrote:  No, a G5 team, or a P5 champion who has multiple losses, does not deserve a chance to play for the National Championship.

Wholeheartedly disagree with this sentiment. Every single team deserves a chance to play for a championship. If a system allows a team to win every game and not be called champion, then that system is inadequate.

I would agree with you but it's more complex than that in CFB. You only have 12 games with 130+ teams. The teams the MAC plays vs. the teams the SEC plays are not equal at all. An 11-1 SEC team compared to a 12-0 MAC team is not equal at all. The level of competition is insanely different.

I think you're overstating the quality gap, but either way, it's an issue that exists in every level of college football and, for that matter, college sports. All other levels of CFB and college sport use an auto-bid system in the postseason championship tournament (with a few rare exceptions).

Legitimate question for you: do you dislike every other college sport postseason since the standard format provides auto-bids?

(01-08-2018 12:27 PM)george14 Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 05:27 PM)induction Wrote:  

(01-05-2018 03:31 PM)george14 Wrote:  No, a G5 team, or a P5 champion who has multiple losses, does not deserve a chance to play for the National Championship.

Wholeheartedly disagree with this sentiment. Every single team deserves a chance to play for a championship. If a system allows a team to win every game and not be called champion, then that system is inadequate.

I would agree with you but it's more complex than that in CFB. You only have 12 games with 130+ teams. The teams the MAC plays vs. the teams the SEC plays are not equal at all. An 11-1 SEC team compared to a 12-0 MAC team is not equal at all. The level of competition is insanely different.

Why not work to equal the playing field by treating all D1 schools and conferences as if they are all D1 schools and conferences; beginning with ending a system which says P5 schools are better than G5 schools when it comes to the playoff. This is why they dont have a real playoff with the champ of every D1 conference guaranteed a spot; because if they did the G5's would be able to gain ground on the P5's, just like in basketball. Its a fixed system, and anyone who doesnt see that is blind.

(01-08-2018 01:46 PM)induction Wrote:  I think you're overstating the quality gap, but either way, it's an issue that exists in every level of college football and, for that matter, college sports. All other levels of CFB and college sport use an auto-bid system in the postseason championship tournament (with a few rare exceptions).

Legitimate question for you: do you dislike every other college sport postseason since the standard format provides auto-bids?

I am a very big proponent of branching off and making G5 do their own thing while the P5 does theirs. It's inevitable. I don't see a point in hanging our hat on beating a P5 school once in a while and celebrating like it's something memorable. The only way a G5 team would make a 4 team playoff is if they ran the table and also had a respectable OOC schedule, much like WMU this season. If UCF beat USC and MSU, they would have the notable wins for the committee to recognize.

Yup....the G5 should stop playing the "victim" card and take matters into their own hands. When will they stop begging for table scraps?

The P5 will implode in the near future under the weight of its own greed. The coaching salary arms race, paying players, etc. etc. will catch up to these teams at some point. Let them continue down the semi-pro path to destruction on their own.

Why is it that every other sport at every other level rewards undefeated teams with the chance to play for a championship? There are horrible conferences relative to the rest of the playing field in FCS, Division II and Division III. The difference between Mount Union and a MIAA school like Hope, Kalamazoo, etc. is every bit as large as the perceived gap between the SEC champion and the Sun Belt champion, yet both winners are afforded the opportunity to play for the same championship. Why does this not apply to Division I football? What is it that makes Division I football above the rules that literally every other team championship at every level of collegiate competition follows?

Should MLB not allow the Nationals into the postseason because they get to disproportionally beat up on the Braves, Marlins, Phillies and Mets (all horrible teams) all year? Should the NFL allow more NFC teams into the playoffs if the AFC is trash?

My dream scenario, which will never happen because of money and name-brand elitism, would be a 10-game regular season, a weekend of conference championships and a 16-team playoff with 10 AQs and six at-larges. It won't happen because money and what will happen to the Generic Regional Chain Grocery Store Bowls?

As for UCF, the NCAA officially lists 30 seasons with multiple claims to National Championships and I know there are many other seasons where schools have claims that are unofficially recognized. What's one more?

(01-10-2018 10:18 AM)dunkface Wrote:  Why is it that every other sport at every other level rewards undefeated teams with the chance to play for a championship? There are horrible conferences relative to the rest of the playing field in FCS, Division II and Division III. The difference between Mount Union and a MIAA school like Hope, Kalamazoo, etc. is every bit as large as the perceived gap between the SEC champion and the Sun Belt champion, yet both winners are afforded the opportunity to play for the same championship. Why does this not apply to Division I football? What is it that makes Division I football above the rules that literally every other team championship at every level of collegiate competition follows?

Should MLB not allow the Nationals into the postseason because they get to disproportionally beat up on the Braves, Marlins, Phillies and Mets (all horrible teams) all year? Should the NFL allow more NFC teams into the playoffs if the AFC is trash?

My dream scenario, which will never happen because of money and name-brand elitism, would be a 10-game regular season, a weekend of conference championships and a 16-team playoff with 10 AQs and six at-larges. It won't happen because money and what will happen to the Generic Regional Chain Grocery Store Bowls?

I don't disagree with this. My opinion on all of this is relative to what we have now. I think anyone who follows CFB understands this is a pipe dream and a long way away from happening.

The only problem is the at-large bids. Take this year for instance with the auto-bids:
OSU, UGA, CLEM, OU, USC, UCF, TOL, FAU, BSU, and TROY/ASU (no sun belt CCG)

Who are the at-large teams? You would think the runner-up would get it. But when you look at this season, that means AUB or BAMA would not even get an at-large? If they do, now that leaves 4 more spots open for the other P5 conferences. WIS, MIAMI, STAN, TCU all lost their CCG. That essentially means a team like MSU, ND, or WSH will be left out in favor of a team like Toledo or App State? I think this will cause a ton of problems down the line. You will see teams ranked in the top 12 not get into a 16 team playoff but a conference winning G5 team will. Obviously we have seen "meh" P5 winners in big bowl games, which I don't like either. I just think the gap is way bigger. College basketball is a different because there are 351 teams and 68 teams make the tournament.

It's very easy to say "just win your conference bro" but that is significantly easier to do in the Sun Belt than it is in the B10 or SEC. That is where the argument lies. It's basically saying you think Toledo > #3 team of a P5 conference.

(01-10-2018 03:49 PM)george14 Wrote:  It's very easy to say "just win your conference bro" but that is significantly easier to do in the Sun Belt than it is in the B10 or SEC. That is where the argument lies. It's basically saying you think Toledo > #3 team of a P5 conference.

This is my biggest problem with the CFP: it's defined as the 4 "best" teams and that mindset has become entrenched to the point that we frame all playoff discussion around making sure the "best" teams get in. Auto-bids say nothing about the quality of teams involved, even relative to teams who don't qualify. It's simply the objective way that teams become eligible for the postseason tournament.

That does mean that some "better" teams are left out while "worse" ones get in, but who cares? Why is that system good enough for every other sport and yet violates the sanctity of FBS?

We should anoint ourselves National Champs for 1922.

Wasn't that the year that we not only went undefeated, but un-scored upon all season?

(01-10-2018 06:25 PM)Bronco XXVIII Wrote:  We should anoint ourselves National Champs for 1922.

Wasn't that the year that we not only went undefeated, but un-scored upon all season?

Why not? The NCAA already officially recognizes three "champions" from that season.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/articl...ip-history

(01-10-2018 03:49 PM)george14 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 10:18 AM)dunkface Wrote:  Why is it that every other sport at every other level rewards undefeated teams with the chance to play for a championship? There are horrible conferences relative to the rest of the playing field in FCS, Division II and Division III. The difference between Mount Union and a MIAA school like Hope, Kalamazoo, etc. is every bit as large as the perceived gap between the SEC champion and the Sun Belt champion, yet both winners are afforded the opportunity to play for the same championship. Why does this not apply to Division I football? What is it that makes Division I football above the rules that literally every other team championship at every level of collegiate competition follows?

Should MLB not allow the Nationals into the postseason because they get to disproportionally beat up on the Braves, Marlins, Phillies and Mets (all horrible teams) all year? Should the NFL allow more NFC teams into the playoffs if the AFC is trash?

My dream scenario, which will never happen because of money and name-brand elitism, would be a 10-game regular season, a weekend of conference championships and a 16-team playoff with 10 AQs and six at-larges. It won't happen because money and what will happen to the Generic Regional Chain Grocery Store Bowls?

I don't disagree with this. My opinion on all of this is relative to what we have now. I think anyone who follows CFB understands this is a pipe dream and a long way away from happening.

The only problem is the at-large bids. Take this year for instance with the auto-bids:
OSU, UGA, CLEM, OU, USC, UCF, TOL, FAU, BSU, and TROY/ASU (no sun belt CCG)

Who are the at-large teams? You would think the runner-up would get it. But when you look at this season, that means AUB or BAMA would not even get an at-large? If they do, now that leaves 4 more spots open for the other P5 conferences. WIS, MIAMI, STAN, TCU all lost their CCG. That essentially means a team like MSU, ND, or WSH will be left out in favor of a team like Toledo or App State? I think this will cause a ton of problems down the line. You will see teams ranked in the top 12 not get into a 16 team playoff but a conference winning G5 team will. Obviously we have seen "meh" P5 winners in big bowl games, which I don't like either. I just think the gap is way bigger. College basketball is a different because there are 351 teams and 68 teams make the tournament.

It's very easy to say "just win your conference bro" but that is significantly easier to do in the Sun Belt than it is in the B10 or SEC. That is where the argument lies. It's basically saying you think Toledo > #3 team of a P5 conference.

So what? Win your conference. Because, at times, a "Toledo" IS better than the #3 team of a P5 conference.

And, at the heart of it all, the current CFP system isn't about who's best, it's about money.

Indeed, it would be exciting if FBS implemented a playoff like FCS, whereas all conference champions got an auto bid with some extra at-larges (presumably from P5 conferences). FCS currently invites 24 teams.

Here's the rub: Under such a scenario, I'm assuming all the 'minor' bowls would go away. It would be difficult going back to the pre-2000 days of "win the whole MACC or you get nothing." 1988-2016 would've been a long stretch of not going anywhere.

I think with an 8 team field, where 1 spot is given to the highest ranked G5 team, is a good start, and would keep the minor, fun bowls still intact.

(01-11-2018 10:23 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  Indeed, it would be exciting if FBS implemented a playoff like FCS, whereas all conference champions got an auto bid with some extra at-larges (presumably from P5 conferences). FCS currently invites 24 teams.

Here's the rub: Under such a scenario, I'm assuming all the 'minor' bowls would go away. It would be difficult going back to the pre-2000 days of "win the whole MACC or you get nothing." 1988-2016 would've been a long stretch of not going anywhere.

I think with an 8 team field, where 1 spot is given to the highest ranked G5 team, is a good start, and would keep the minor, fun bowls still intact.

12 TEAMS! Committee's top 2 non-champs (P5 or G5...hey, don't rule it out) get auto bids! Top 4 get byes! SO ******* EASY!!!!

(01-11-2018 10:23 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  Indeed, it would be exciting if FBS implemented a playoff like FCS, whereas all conference champions got an auto bid with some extra at-larges (presumably from P5 conferences). FCS currently invites 24 teams.

Here's the rub: Under such a scenario, I'm assuming all the 'minor' bowls would go away. It would be difficult going back to the pre-2000 days of "win the whole MACC or you get nothing." 1988-2016 would've been a long stretch of not going anywhere.

I think with an 8 team field, where 1 spot is given to the highest ranked G5 team, is a good start, and would keep the minor, fun bowls still intact.

You can still keep a lot of bowls. You do the playoffs in December, then have a slimmer bowl season around New Year's Eve after the semis, giving the two champions a break like before the Super Bowl, then you have the championship in it's current slot.

It's a chance to maybe slim down the bowls to 10 or so, so basically a team will have to go 8-4 to have a realistic shot.

Everything would be more manageable, easy to sell, and you could probably get as many viewers.

For the G5 teams, it means you get a chance to hang with the big dogs and no more shenanigans about disrespect. I would totally rather have that then watching us slug it out with a 6-6 team in the Beef O' Brady's Bowl. Is that still a thing? Or the Bitcoin Bowl? Whatever the heck it is now?

I also wouldn't mind seeing some additional postseason tournaments that award trophies. Maybe do one each for P5 (Bill Snyder Cup) and G5 (Frank Solich Cup) as a consolation for those teams that had pretty good, but not great years. Bascially the NIT for football.

I heard the contract is good thru 2025. G5's (schools and fans) better band together quick. By 2025 half the P5 coaches will make >$50M, P5 revenue will be twice what it is today (top SEC schools like LSU are bringing in $85M for football alone). The only hope is a at- large and UCF made a pretty good bid this season. G5's have actually beat P5's more often than not in post BCS New Years bowl games.

There is negative interest or chance in giving the G5 a guaranteed slot. UCF getting the last spot on their own merits is one thing, being forced to give a 2 loss 2015 Boise State a bid is completely different. That's also why P5's didn't give conference playoff auto bids so far