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Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

Its an interesting discussion, but the university president and faculty all voted to join the Big 10 less than 20 years ago. They felt it was in the university's best interest academically. At that point the alumni threw a fit and the board of trustees rejected it. All indications at the time were that the football fans wanting independence were the driving factors. Doesn't mean the media got it right, but that was the clear implication.

That president (Monk Malloy) became the first one in ND history to not be awarded another term in office when he desired it, largely because of his stance.

His nomination was soundly rejected. Last I heard, he was at the University of Portland.

The faculty vote was meaningless, as it was non-binding and had zero effect. The faculty wanted access to research dollars with the CIC. Nobody...absolutely nobody...outside of Malloy and the faculty wanted ND to join the Big Ten.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2018 12:02 PM by TerryD.)
01-09-2018 11:59 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 11:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

Its an interesting discussion, but the university president and faculty all voted to join the Big 10 less than 20 years ago. They felt it was in the university's best interest academically. At that point the alumni threw a fit and the board of trustees rejected it. All indications at the time were that the football fans wanting independence were the driving factors. Doesn't mean the media got it right, but that was the clear implication.

That president (Monk Malloy) became the first one in ND history to not be awarded another term in office when he desired it, largely because of his stance.

His nomination was soundly rejected. Last I heard, he was at the University of Portland.

The faculty vote was meaningless, as it was non-binding and had zero effect. The faculty wanted access to research dollars with the CIC. Nobody...absolutely nobody...outside of Malloy and the faculty wanted ND to join the Big Ten.

TerryD, I seem to recall, that the now defunct realignment board on ND Nation, was pretty evenly split between the B1G and the ACC when it looked like Notre Dame was going to have to make "the" move to full time conference membership.04-cheers
.........And those old goats are pretty hard core.
01-09-2018 12:30 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 12:30 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

Its an interesting discussion, but the university president and faculty all voted to join the Big 10 less than 20 years ago. They felt it was in the university's best interest academically. At that point the alumni threw a fit and the board of trustees rejected it. All indications at the time were that the football fans wanting independence were the driving factors. Doesn't mean the media got it right, but that was the clear implication.

That president (Monk Malloy) became the first one in ND history to not be awarded another term in office when he desired it, largely because of his stance.

His nomination was soundly rejected. Last I heard, he was at the University of Portland.

The faculty vote was meaningless, as it was non-binding and had zero effect. The faculty wanted access to research dollars with the CIC. Nobody...absolutely nobody...outside of Malloy and the faculty wanted ND to join the Big Ten.

TerryD, I seem to recall, that the now defunct realignment board on ND Nation, was pretty evenly split between the B1G and the ACC when it looked like Notre Dame was going to have to make "the" move to full time conference membership.04-cheers
.........And those old goats are pretty hard core.


Key word bolded.
01-09-2018 02:45 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

I don't think it's a cynical question to ask.

I don't underestimate at all that academic concerns come first or that they should come first. I just don't understand how independence would or could preserve academic integrity.

Of the schools in this country that field athletic programs, virtually all of them are in a conference. Would it be fair to assume then that those schools don't put academic concerns first? No, I don't think that would be fair at all. So the question is, what about Notre Dame would make them unique in that regard?

Perhaps there is an answer to that question, but I just haven't heard one yet.
01-09-2018 03:07 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 03:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

I don't think it's a cynical question to ask.

I don't underestimate at all that academic concerns come first or that they should come first. I just don't understand how independence would or could preserve academic integrity.

Of the schools in this country that field athletic programs, virtually all of them are in a conference. Would it be fair to assume then that those schools don't put academic concerns first? No, I don't think that would be fair at all. So the question is, what about Notre Dame would make them unique in that regard?

Perhaps there is an answer to that question, but I just haven't heard one yet.



I think that it is a marketing issue regarding independence, not an academic one.

Football independence has nothing to do with academics.

My only statement on academics was that ND will not lessen its internal academic standards for football players in order to try to compete for the playoffs. I think that is not in doubt.

ND thinks being independent and playing in stadiums (some of them NFL stadiums in large cities)all over the country is a better way to market the school than to be "regionalized" in a football conference and be required to play 8-9 conference games.

Other schools think being in conference is the best method to use their football teams to market their schools.

Same goal but different strategies, thats all.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2018 04:44 PM by TerryD.)
01-09-2018 04:43 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 02:45 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 12:30 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

Its an interesting discussion, but the university president and faculty all voted to join the Big 10 less than 20 years ago. They felt it was in the university's best interest academically. At that point the alumni threw a fit and the board of trustees rejected it. All indications at the time were that the football fans wanting independence were the driving factors. Doesn't mean the media got it right, but that was the clear implication.

That president (Monk Malloy) became the first one in ND history to not be awarded another term in office when he desired it, largely because of his stance.

His nomination was soundly rejected. Last I heard, he was at the University of Portland.

The faculty vote was meaningless, as it was non-binding and had zero effect. The faculty wanted access to research dollars with the CIC. Nobody...absolutely nobody...outside of Malloy and the faculty wanted ND to join the Big Ten.

TerryD, I seem to recall, that the now defunct realignment board on ND Nation, was pretty evenly split between the B1G and the ACC when it looked like Notre Dame was going to have to make "the" move to full time conference membership.04-cheers
.........And those old goats are pretty hard core.


Key word bolded.

The point is; that there were many posters that favored a move to the B1G over the ACC.
That may not be the case now that Notre Dame fans have been able so see how wonderful the ACC is (except for State), but at the time it was about a 50-50 split.
01-10-2018 07:57 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-10-2018 07:57 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 02:45 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 12:30 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its an interesting discussion, but the university president and faculty all voted to join the Big 10 less than 20 years ago. They felt it was in the university's best interest academically. At that point the alumni threw a fit and the board of trustees rejected it. All indications at the time were that the football fans wanting independence were the driving factors. Doesn't mean the media got it right, but that was the clear implication.

That president (Monk Malloy) became the first one in ND history to not be awarded another term in office when he desired it, largely because of his stance.

His nomination was soundly rejected. Last I heard, he was at the University of Portland.

The faculty vote was meaningless, as it was non-binding and had zero effect. The faculty wanted access to research dollars with the CIC. Nobody...absolutely nobody...outside of Malloy and the faculty wanted ND to join the Big Ten.

TerryD, I seem to recall, that the now defunct realignment board on ND Nation, was pretty evenly split between the B1G and the ACC when it looked like Notre Dame was going to have to make "the" move to full time conference membership.04-cheers
.........And those old goats are pretty hard core.


Key word bolded.

The point is; that there were many posters that favored a move to the B1G over the ACC.
That may not be the case now that Notre Dame fans have been able so see how wonderful the ACC is (except for State), but at the time it was about a 50-50 split.

Maybe on that one board (taking your word for it), not the entire ND fan base. The premise on that board (as you stated) was that football was going to have to join a conference, as well.

Now, CR has run its course and ND fans know that ND will never be forced at gunpoint to join the Big Ten. Life is good.

If you don't think that the ND fan base collectively mostly despises the Big Ten, then you don't know the ND fan base very well.
01-10-2018 11:12 AM
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Post: #88
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 11:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

Its an interesting discussion, but the university president and faculty all voted to join the Big 10 less than 20 years ago. They felt it was in the university's best interest academically. At that point the alumni threw a fit and the board of trustees rejected it. All indications at the time were that the football fans wanting independence were the driving factors. Doesn't mean the media got it right, but that was the clear implication.

That president (Monk Malloy) became the first one in ND history to not be awarded another term in office when he desired it, largely because of his stance.

His nomination was soundly rejected. Last I heard, he was at the University of Portland.

The faculty vote was meaningless, as it was non-binding and had zero effect. The faculty wanted access to research dollars with the CIC. Nobody...absolutely nobody...outside of Malloy and the faculty wanted ND to join the Big Ten.

And the implication, faulty or not, is that the president got removed because of football. BMD for football wanted him out for suggesting an end to independence.
01-10-2018 11:41 AM
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Post: #89
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-09-2018 04:43 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

I don't think it's a cynical question to ask.

I don't underestimate at all that academic concerns come first or that they should come first. I just don't understand how independence would or could preserve academic integrity.

Of the schools in this country that field athletic programs, virtually all of them are in a conference. Would it be fair to assume then that those schools don't put academic concerns first? No, I don't think that would be fair at all. So the question is, what about Notre Dame would make them unique in that regard?

Perhaps there is an answer to that question, but I just haven't heard one yet.



I think that it is a marketing issue regarding independence, not an academic one.

Football independence has nothing to do with academics.

My only statement on academics was that ND will not lessen its internal academic standards for football players in order to try to compete for the playoffs. I think that is not in doubt.

ND thinks being independent and playing in stadiums (some of them NFL stadiums in large cities)all over the country is a better way to market the school than to be "regionalized" in a football conference and be required to play 8-9 conference games.

Other schools think being in conference is the best method to use their football teams to market their schools.

Same goal but different strategies, thats all.

I've always felt the "regional" aspect was specious and ignored reality. Yes, Notre Dame has tended to play a more national schedule than just about anyone else. But that mostly meant they took a long train trip to play USC and play someone in the South. In reality their schedule in the 60s and 70s was still pretty regional. 6 to 8 of their 10 or 11 games were in the Chicago to Boston corridor, geographically, the Big 10 region.

The truly national schedule Notre Dame plays now didn't happen until Notre Dame got the NBC TV contract. The schedule looks like a made for TV model. Now that still can be considered "marketing," but its also about money.
01-10-2018 11:46 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-10-2018 11:46 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:43 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

I don't think it's a cynical question to ask.

I don't underestimate at all that academic concerns come first or that they should come first. I just don't understand how independence would or could preserve academic integrity.

Of the schools in this country that field athletic programs, virtually all of them are in a conference. Would it be fair to assume then that those schools don't put academic concerns first? No, I don't think that would be fair at all. So the question is, what about Notre Dame would make them unique in that regard?

Perhaps there is an answer to that question, but I just haven't heard one yet.



I think that it is a marketing issue regarding independence, not an academic one.

Football independence has nothing to do with academics.

My only statement on academics was that ND will not lessen its internal academic standards for football players in order to try to compete for the playoffs. I think that is not in doubt.

ND thinks being independent and playing in stadiums (some of them NFL stadiums in large cities)all over the country is a better way to market the school than to be "regionalized" in a football conference and be required to play 8-9 conference games.

Other schools think being in conference is the best method to use their football teams to market their schools.

Same goal but different strategies, thats all.

I've always felt the "regional" aspect was specious and ignored reality. Yes, Notre Dame has tended to play a more national schedule than just about anyone else. But that mostly meant they took a long train trip to play USC and play someone in the South. In reality their schedule in the 60s and 70s was still pretty regional. 6 to 8 of their 10 or 11 games were in the Chicago to Boston corridor, geographically, the Big 10 region.

The truly national schedule Notre Dame plays now didn't happen until Notre Dame got the NBC TV contract. The schedule looks like a made for TV model. Now that still can be considered "marketing," but its also about money.

Less money than if it joined a football conference.....
01-10-2018 04:32 PM
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Post: #91
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-10-2018 11:46 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:43 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

I don't think it's a cynical question to ask.

I don't underestimate at all that academic concerns come first or that they should come first. I just don't understand how independence would or could preserve academic integrity.

Of the schools in this country that field athletic programs, virtually all of them are in a conference. Would it be fair to assume then that those schools don't put academic concerns first? No, I don't think that would be fair at all. So the question is, what about Notre Dame would make them unique in that regard?

Perhaps there is an answer to that question, but I just haven't heard one yet.



I think that it is a marketing issue regarding independence, not an academic one.

Football independence has nothing to do with academics.

My only statement on academics was that ND will not lessen its internal academic standards for football players in order to try to compete for the playoffs. I think that is not in doubt.

ND thinks being independent and playing in stadiums (some of them NFL stadiums in large cities)all over the country is a better way to market the school than to be "regionalized" in a football conference and be required to play 8-9 conference games.

Other schools think being in conference is the best method to use their football teams to market their schools.

Same goal but different strategies, thats all.

I've always felt the "regional" aspect was specious and ignored reality. Yes, Notre Dame has tended to play a more national schedule than just about anyone else. But that mostly meant they took a long train trip to play USC and play someone in the South. In reality their schedule in the 60s and 70s was still pretty regional. 6 to 8 of their 10 or 11 games were in the Chicago to Boston corridor, geographically, the Big 10 region.

The truly national schedule Notre Dame plays now didn't happen until Notre Dame got the NBC TV contract. The schedule looks like a made for TV model. Now that still can be considered "marketing," but its also about money.

Two things. First, the "Chicago to Boston corridor" was not "the Big 10 region" in 1960. The "Big 10 region" stopped about 6 hours from Chicago, at the OH/PA border. Games against Pitt, Temple, Syracuse, Army, and BC were outside Big 10 territory.

Even today, the "Big 10 region" still doesn't include New England (which may be "the North" but is as different from NY State as Miami is from Tallahassee).

Second, ND did play a national schedule back then.
1960 Notre Dame schedule (6 of the 10 games are outside the Big 10 region)
California
Purdue
North Carolina
Michigan State
Northwestern
Navy
Pitt
Miami (FL)
Iowa
USC
(no bowl game)
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2018 12:01 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
01-11-2018 12:01 PM
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Post: #92
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-11-2018 12:01 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 11:46 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 04:43 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(01-09-2018 03:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-08-2018 06:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  In most discussions about the future of Notre Dame football, I see a consistent theme. Many posters look at ND's stance and assume that it could, and inevitably would, change if the money was right. They also assume that pursuit of national championships in football is the foremost consideration.

But as someone pointed out, the priests at ND have their own agenda, and it might not consider either of those things to be at or near the top of their list. People have underestimated the resolve of those leaders to put academic interests first for as long as I have heard the cynics.

When you have been saying something for fifty years, and backed your words with your actions, maybe you deserve to be believed and not cynically questioned.

I don't think it's a cynical question to ask.

I don't underestimate at all that academic concerns come first or that they should come first. I just don't understand how independence would or could preserve academic integrity.

Of the schools in this country that field athletic programs, virtually all of them are in a conference. Would it be fair to assume then that those schools don't put academic concerns first? No, I don't think that would be fair at all. So the question is, what about Notre Dame would make them unique in that regard?

Perhaps there is an answer to that question, but I just haven't heard one yet.



I think that it is a marketing issue regarding independence, not an academic one.

Football independence has nothing to do with academics.

My only statement on academics was that ND will not lessen its internal academic standards for football players in order to try to compete for the playoffs. I think that is not in doubt.

ND thinks being independent and playing in stadiums (some of them NFL stadiums in large cities)all over the country is a better way to market the school than to be "regionalized" in a football conference and be required to play 8-9 conference games.

Other schools think being in conference is the best method to use their football teams to market their schools.

Same goal but different strategies, thats all.

I've always felt the "regional" aspect was specious and ignored reality. Yes, Notre Dame has tended to play a more national schedule than just about anyone else. But that mostly meant they took a long train trip to play USC and play someone in the South. In reality their schedule in the 60s and 70s was still pretty regional. 6 to 8 of their 10 or 11 games were in the Chicago to Boston corridor, geographically, the Big 10 region.

The truly national schedule Notre Dame plays now didn't happen until Notre Dame got the NBC TV contract. The schedule looks like a made for TV model. Now that still can be considered "marketing," but its also about money.

Two things. First, the "Chicago to Boston corridor" was not "the Big 10 region" in 1960. The "Big 10 region" stopped about 6 hours from Chicago, at the OH/PA border. Games against Pitt, Temple, Syracuse, Army, and BC were outside Big 10 territory.

Even today, the "Big 10 region" still doesn't include New England (which may be "the North" but is as different from NY State as Miami is from Tallahassee).

Second, ND did play a national schedule back then.
1960 Notre Dame schedule (6 of the 10 games are outside the Big 10 region)
California
Purdue
North Carolina
Michigan State
Northwestern
Navy
Pitt
Miami (FL)
Iowa
USC
(no bowl game)

6 of 10 in what is now Big 10 territory. And Chicago to Boston is as regional as Baton Rouge to Lexington to Gainesville or Seattle to Los Angeles to Boulder.

During that era they played Northwestern (later replaced by Michigan), Purdue, Michigan St., Pitt and Navy every year (or nearly) along with USC. Army also showed up on their schedule along with other Big 10 teams and BC later became a regular.

Their 1966 championship team had those 6 regulars + Army, Oklahoma, Duke and North Carolina. Only Oklahoma and USC were played outside IL, IN or MI.

In 2006, they had Michigan St., Purdue, Penn St., Navy, Michigan, and Army, but 6 games outside the region-USC, Air Force, UCLA, Stanford, North Carolina and Georgia Tech, so they had made it more "national" and they did play in Los Angeles, Atlanta and Colorado Springs, in addition to playing in IN, MI and Baltimore for the Navy game.
01-11-2018 10:12 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
Well, whether it was a national schedule then (I, like Captain Bearcat think it was), it is one now.

ND doesn't want to change that for any reason unless a double barrel shotgun is placed between their eyes (P4 champs only playoff).
01-12-2018 11:56 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
Change is coming (finally)

https://twitter.com/wilnerhotline/status...4218934272
Jon Wilner‏ Verified account @wilnerhotline

Source: struggling @Pac12Network informs staff of cost-cutting, restructuring plan, (moves incld elimination of several positions)
3:17 PM - 23 Jan 2018
01-23-2018 06:56 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #95
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
I really have to wonder at what point the California schools would seek Big Ten membership.

On the other side I also have to wonder how the Big Ten would respond. Who, if anyone, from the Pac 12 would they want? Is this a move they'd entertain doing sooner rather than later or is this openly an option if the SEC changes the game first by grabbing Oklahoma and potentially others and changing the definition of a collegiate conference.
01-30-2018 05:23 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(12-12-2017 08:44 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 08:26 PM)megadrone Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 07:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...gnment-lol

Maybe it will be the PAC that gets picked apart and maybe Texas and Oklahoma will do some of the poaching. Arizona & Arizona State have already expressed some angst as has U.C.L.A.

Is this just speculation or has USC expressed any interest in leaving?

The tweet posted in the article is from someone who is apparently a large backer. It's probably a talking point to try to force change with the PACN. Nothing like a threat to leave to force an issue like deciding to get FOX or ESPN backing for the PACN. Then the PAC might pursue Texa-homa or something similar again. But if not, I don't think the thought is necessarily a hollow threat.

I think it could get really interesting. Consider that if the current FOX / Disney deals go through that ESPN will wind up holding the T3 of the Big 12 and would be in a perfect position to handle the changing of the LHN into a viable Big 12N. That would create an even bigger gap in revenue between the PAC and the Big 12 making movement conceivable. Let's say Arizona and Arizona State were interested as well and U.C.L.A. decided to throw in with U.S.C.. That would put California and Stanford on the clock so to speak. The present PAC has 12 schools. If they dropped to 7 they would have a year to get back up to 8 or lose conference status. Remember their contracts are up in 2024-5 as well.

While not likely, it has, if the Disney/FOX deal goes through, moved into the realm of possibility. Besides when a conference, or one of its schools, doesn't want to accept the responsibility for making a potential threat they usually have one of their boosters do the talking, or a local beat writer. It's an effective way to send a message. So we'll see.

If the four Cali schools and the two Arizona schools want to leave to seek greener pastures, I believe their only viable option in the short term would be to join the Big 12. And, I think those six teams would have enough leverage to negotiate terms that meet most, if not all, their needs.

If, somehow, egos could be put aside long enough to merge two poorly performing networks (the PACN and the BTN) into a single profitable entity, it could work.

As for the remnants of the PAC, they would need to attract valuable teams to bring them back to the 8 team minimum required to maintain their status as a conference. Actually, with the Cali schools no longer voting members, I think the door would be open to bringing on board Boise State, San Diego State and BYU. That's not a bad 9 member league.

And here's an even more radical idea. If the PAC split could be negotiated amicably, the new 9-team PAC might even remain part of the new network, which would then include 25 schools (16 B12 and 9 PAC) and a huge swath of the nation's geography and demographics. The west coast teams from the B12 would have, and could commit to, maintaining their PAC rivalries OOC, giving them all solid schedules throughout the year.

Using Sagarin ratings, the five power conferences after realigning would have the following 3 year average ratings:

SEC 79
ACC 78
B12 77
B1G 76
PAC 75

The AAC would continue to stand alone as a tweener conference with a 3 year average power rating of 67. The remaining four conferences (including a depleted MWC) are bunched between CUSA's 57 rating and the MWC's 60.

If all of this could be negotiated amicably, it could even be done before existing media contracts and GoRs expire. But what are the odds of getting 25 university presidents to agree on something like this?
01-31-2018 08:25 AM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-30-2018 05:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I really have to wonder at what point the California schools would seek Big Ten membership.

On the other side I also have to wonder how the Big Ten would respond. Who, if anyone, from the Pac 12 would they want? Is this a move they'd entertain doing sooner rather than later or is this openly an option if the SEC changes the game first by grabbing Oklahoma and potentially others and changing the definition of a collegiate conference.

My guess is those "discussions" have quietly been happening already.

Considering the PACN is having issues, it might be cheaper and easier to merge with the BTN. The PACN would provide programming and support for the west coast schools which would be incorporated into the BTN and it's current distribution.

The question would then be what would happen to the PAC. If there's mutual interest between the B1G and several PAC schools, I could see the B1G making the preemptive strike which would most likely mean adding 4-6 schools. If they went 4 it would probably be UCLA, USC, Cal, and Stanford. It they went 6, add Colorado and Oregon.

That in turn would probably work out VERY well for the XII because they could add Arizona, ASU, Utah, Oregon St, and the two Washington schools. In exchange for adding those, Texas could negotiate turning the LHN into the XII network.

Pipe dream? Maybe, but it could be a case of being crazy like a Fox.
01-31-2018 09:36 AM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #98
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
Carving up the Pac 12 between the Big Ten and Big 12 would be a solid move that could help out both conferences.

My guess is the Big Ten's plan A is Kansas and Oklahoma with an open door available for Texas and Notre Dame.

The Pac 12 raid seems like a halfway decent back up especially if it means getting the rights to the California schools. An inroads into states like Colorado, Washington, Oregon, and Arizona wouldn't be terrible too.

If someone is gutsy enough to pull the trigger it will be interesting to see how things play out.

Another option out there is that the California schools join forces with the Texlahoma schools to create a new conference of 14-16 teams, bringing the strongest elements of both leagues into a conference that would hopefully be able to keep pace with their more prosperous eastern neighbors.
01-31-2018 04:52 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #99
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
(01-31-2018 08:25 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 08:44 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 08:26 PM)megadrone Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 07:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...gnment-lol

Maybe it will be the PAC that gets picked apart and maybe Texas and Oklahoma will do some of the poaching. Arizona & Arizona State have already expressed some angst as has U.C.L.A.

Is this just speculation or has USC expressed any interest in leaving?

The tweet posted in the article is from someone who is apparently a large backer. It's probably a talking point to try to force change with the PACN. Nothing like a threat to leave to force an issue like deciding to get FOX or ESPN backing for the PACN. Then the PAC might pursue Texa-homa or something similar again. But if not, I don't think the thought is necessarily a hollow threat.

I think it could get really interesting. Consider that if the current FOX / Disney deals go through that ESPN will wind up holding the T3 of the Big 12 and would be in a perfect position to handle the changing of the LHN into a viable Big 12N. That would create an even bigger gap in revenue between the PAC and the Big 12 making movement conceivable. Let's say Arizona and Arizona State were interested as well and U.C.L.A. decided to throw in with U.S.C.. That would put California and Stanford on the clock so to speak. The present PAC has 12 schools. If they dropped to 7 they would have a year to get back up to 8 or lose conference status. Remember their contracts are up in 2024-5 as well.

While not likely, it has, if the Disney/FOX deal goes through, moved into the realm of possibility. Besides when a conference, or one of its schools, doesn't want to accept the responsibility for making a potential threat they usually have one of their boosters do the talking, or a local beat writer. It's an effective way to send a message. So we'll see.

If the four Cali schools and the two Arizona schools want to leave to seek greener pastures, I believe their only viable option in the short term would be to join the Big 12. And, I think those six teams would have enough leverage to negotiate terms that meet most, if not all, their needs.

If, somehow, egos could be put aside long enough to merge two poorly performing networks (the PACN and the BTN) into a single profitable entity, it could work.

As for the remnants of the PAC, they would need to attract valuable teams to bring them back to the 8 team minimum required to maintain their status as a conference. Actually, with the Cali schools no longer voting members, I think the door would be open to bringing on board Boise State, San Diego State and BYU. That's not a bad 9 member league.

And here's an even more radical idea. If the PAC split could be negotiated amicably, the new 9-team PAC might even remain part of the new network, which would then include 25 schools (16 B12 and 9 PAC) and a huge swath of the nation's geography and demographics. The west coast teams from the B12 would have, and could commit to, maintaining their PAC rivalries OOC, giving them all solid schedules throughout the year.

Using Sagarin ratings, the five power conferences after realigning would have the following 3 year average ratings:

SEC 79
ACC 78
B12 77
B1G 76
PAC 75

The AAC would continue to stand alone as a tweener conference with a 3 year average power rating of 67. The remaining four conferences (including a depleted MWC) are bunched between CUSA's 57 rating and the MWC's 60.

If all of this could be negotiated amicably, it could even be done before existing media contracts and GoRs expire. But what are the odds of getting 25 university presidents to agree on something like this?

The PACN is actually a collection of 6 networks together. This means that every job is replicated 6 times. All of their "networks" are paired. Arizona & ASU share a network, UCLA and USC share a network, etc. That's why their overhead is so high and it would be hard to sell off just a part or separate schools (i..e. Washington/Washington State, Oregon/Oregon State).
02-01-2018 05:45 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #100
RE: Is All Well in PAC Land? Just How Disgruntled Are the Trojans? Stay Tuned......
[/quote]
The PACN is actually a collection of 6 networks together. This means that every job is replicated 6 times. All of their "networks" are paired. Arizona & ASU share a network, UCLA and USC share a network, etc. That's why their overhead is so high and it would be hard to sell off just a part or separate schools (i..e. Washington/Washington State, Oregon/Oregon State).
[/quote]



What I would envision is that all the networks, from the PAC, the LHN and BYU's proprietary network, be merged into a single legal entity. I would further envision that the new B12 and the new PAC form a joint venture to manage the network, provide and supervise all officials, and even handle the scheduling for both leagues to facilitate and optimize the value of OOC games between the two leagues. I'd consider letting the MWC contract for their officiating so there is as little duplication of effort as possible in the western states.

Each conference would negotiate its own media contracts outside the network.

One more tweak I would recommend is for the new PAC to invite Gonzaga to join for all sports except football. That's a better geographic fit for the Zags, and gives their SOS a huge boost, while they likewise give the PAC's SOS a boost. Now the PAC would have a perfect 4 home/4 away football schedule, plus a full double round robin of 18 basketball games.

The B12 would still play a 9 game league schedule in football (7 division, 2 rotating crossovers with no protected rivalries). In hoops, everyone plays five opponents twice (the former PAC schools are always each other's five) and everybody else once, alternating home and away, for a 20 game league schedule most of the bigs seem to be moving toward.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2018 09:35 AM by ken d.)
02-01-2018 09:13 AM
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