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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 01:39 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You wonder if this is a nudge to Fox to give them some numbers on what adding Gonzaga would do to a share, and whether there could be some extra change made for all to have to consider the geographic challenges for conference travel.

Like, we know we're a good match for each other, but help this work.

I think the travel issue can be a little overstated. Because of lacrosse, the footprint extends to Denver (and I think DU could be a good bet for member #12 if it means getting Gonzaga aboard).

Missed classroom time for the other sports is still a huge issue.
12-12-2017 04:21 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
Go to 16 with Zags, SMC, BYU, SLU, WSU and VCU. BOOM! Coast to coast big time basketball conference.
12-12-2017 08:24 PM
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BigHouston Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
The new big east has change so drastically... It has dropped to almost zero interest for me now.

I guess no more football has force me to view them small time now.
12-12-2017 10:52 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 01:39 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You wonder if this is a nudge to Fox to give them some numbers on what adding Gonzaga would do to a share, and whether there could be some extra change made for all to have to consider the geographic challenges for conference travel.

Like, we know we're a good match for each other, but help this work.

I think the travel issue can be a little overstated. Because of lacrosse, the footprint extends to Denver (and I think DU could be a good bet for member #12 if it means getting Gonzaga aboard).

I actually think that the travel issue is being understated and willfully/wishfully ignored by a lot of fans. You state that Big East lacrosse is in Denver... but note that Spokane is over 1000 miles further west from *Denver*. Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis are actually all closer to Denver than Spokane is to Denver. Plus, Denver is a top airport hub with easy direct flights to and from virtually everywhere in the US, while Spokane has limited flights and non-revenue sports might have to be routed through places like Seattle and then bus over (which would exacerbate the travel issues even more than many people are thinking).

From what I've seen in conference realignment over the years, fans seem to waaaaaay overstate the distances between the East Coast and Midwest and then totally understate the distances of places west of the Mississippi. I had people whining on my blog for years about things like "Why does a Midwestern league like the Big Ten want Rutgers and Maryland?" and "Why is the ACC footprint soooooo large?", yet those are rounding error distances compared to where Gonzaga is in comparison with the rest of the Big East.

There are few people that believe that conferences need to be made up of institutional fits combined with revenue maximization potential more than me . However, there "bad geography" (e.g. the stretch from Nebraska to the East Coast that you see in the Big Ten and Big East)... and then there's TERRIBLE, HORRIFIC, UNSUSTAINABLE geography (which is Gonzaga compared to the rest of the Big East).

To be sure, Gonzaga is an unbelievable program with a ton of value. This is just a matter of geography and nothing more.
12-12-2017 11:10 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 10:52 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  The new big east has change so drastically... It has dropped to almost zero interest for me now.

I guess no more football has force me to view them small time now.

Yet that "small time" league makes more TV money from just basketball than any of the G5 leagues do from both football and basketball. Seems like the Big East knows a heck of a lot more about return on investment at the very least.
12-12-2017 11:12 PM
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BigHouston Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 11:12 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 10:52 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  The new big east has change so drastically... It has dropped to almost zero interest for me now.

I guess no more football has force me to view them small time now.

Yet that "small time" league makes more TV money from just basketball than any of the G5 leagues do from both football and basketball. Seems like the Big East knows a heck of a lot more about return on investment at the very least.

LOL... Your reply doesn't change anything.
12-12-2017 11:15 PM
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kmdhoya Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 10:52 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  The new big east has change so drastically... It has dropped to almost zero interest for me now.

I guess no more football has force me to view them small time now.

But that doesn't stop you from posting in the various Big East threads.
12-12-2017 11:29 PM
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BigHouston Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 11:29 PM)kmdhoya Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 10:52 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  The new big east has change so drastically... It has dropped to almost zero interest for me now.

I guess no more football has force me to view them small time now.

But that doesn't stop you from posting in the various Big East threads.

Every thread made is viewed by everyone here... But I guess you weren't aware of it. My
12-12-2017 11:42 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-12-2017 11:10 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 01:39 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You wonder if this is a nudge to Fox to give them some numbers on what adding Gonzaga would do to a share, and whether there could be some extra change made for all to have to consider the geographic challenges for conference travel.

Like, we know we're a good match for each other, but help this work.

I think the travel issue can be a little overstated. Because of lacrosse, the footprint extends to Denver (and I think DU could be a good bet for member #12 if it means getting Gonzaga aboard).

I actually think that the travel issue is being understated and willfully/wishfully ignored by a lot of fans. You state that Big East lacrosse is in Denver... but note that Spokane is over 1000 miles further west from *Denver*. Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis are actually all closer to Denver than Spokane is to Denver. Plus, Denver is a top airport hub with easy direct flights to and from virtually everywhere in the US, while Spokane has limited flights and non-revenue sports might have to be routed through places like Seattle and then bus over (which would exacerbate the travel issues even more than many people are thinking).

From what I've seen in conference realignment over the years, fans seem to waaaaaay overstate the distances between the East Coast and Midwest and then totally understate the distances of places west of the Mississippi. I had people whining on my blog for years about things like "Why does a Midwestern league like the Big Ten want Rutgers and Maryland?" and "Why is the ACC footprint soooooo large?", yet those are rounding error distances compared to where Gonzaga is in comparison with the rest of the Big East.

There are few people that believe that conferences need to be made up of institutional fits combined with revenue maximization potential more than me . However, there "bad geography" (e.g. the stretch from Nebraska to the East Coast that you see in the Big Ten and Big East)... and then there's TERRIBLE, HORRIFIC, UNSUSTAINABLE geography (which is Gonzaga compared to the rest of the Big East).

To be sure, Gonzaga is an unbelievable program with a ton of value. This is just a matter of geography and nothing more.

I'm sorry, man, and spin it any way you want, but, when you have schools that are already 1.4K miles apart, like Providence is to Creighton, there may be "sponges" for easier travel on both sides (for Provy, at least; there's some driving to do for Creighton to Marquette and DePaul), but distance considerations have already been marginalized. Plus, we seem to forget that there is no real denial Gonzaga and the Big East talk about this. So, if they don't drop it, why should other fans?

Fans look at the same maps we all do. This speculation wouldn't be a thing if there weren't tentpoles in Nebraska or Colorado already. It probably doesn't help any that Creighton is so far to the west, games with Gonzaga are closer for the Jays than games for the Jays in Provy, and comparable travel to St. John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova. And, what's crazy...Creighton fans don't seem to mind...still travel to the coasts to represent. Probably why many could stomach the add. It's no less a burden; those fans just go anywhere. Same may be true for Gonzaga, who goes all over the country in the non-conference anyway to compete at a top level. It's kind of already in their blood.

I don't disagree. Don't disagree that St. Louis is still out there looking to relieve DePaul's spot in the basement, and that would help ease the travel for the western front of the conference. SLU was a more travel-friendly candidate when it was overlooked for Creighton then, too. The Big East chose quality. Travel hub or no, again, quality add with Denver lax when others were out there.
12-13-2017 05:59 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
Gonzaga does just fine without a major conference tie-in, are we forgetting their loss in the national championship? Heyday UNLV didn’t need a major conference either. The argument that Gonzaga would benefit from being in a better conference is invalid, because being in a lesser conference has not prohibited championship level success.

What Gonzaga should do is try to secure a TV package with their Pacific time-zone conference mates and own the late night games like the PCC and WAC used to. No sense in making Gonzaga students travel across three time zones for four/five months a year.

I was laughed at for suggesting Creighton to the “catholic conference”, as it was then known as. I called this before anyone, look up my posts. Gonzaga is two time zones away from Omaha! Not gonna happen, folks!

Also, the Big East does just fine without Gonzaga and they are known as the Power 6 Conference, not the American.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2017 09:31 AM by esayem.)
12-13-2017 09:29 AM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 05:59 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 11:10 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 01:39 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You wonder if this is a nudge to Fox to give them some numbers on what adding Gonzaga would do to a share, and whether there could be some extra change made for all to have to consider the geographic challenges for conference travel.

Like, we know we're a good match for each other, but help this work.

I think the travel issue can be a little overstated. Because of lacrosse, the footprint extends to Denver (and I think DU could be a good bet for member #12 if it means getting Gonzaga aboard).

I actually think that the travel issue is being understated and willfully/wishfully ignored by a lot of fans. You state that Big East lacrosse is in Denver... but note that Spokane is over 1000 miles further west from *Denver*. Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis are actually all closer to Denver than Spokane is to Denver. Plus, Denver is a top airport hub with easy direct flights to and from virtually everywhere in the US, while Spokane has limited flights and non-revenue sports might have to be routed through places like Seattle and then bus over (which would exacerbate the travel issues even more than many people are thinking).

From what I've seen in conference realignment over the years, fans seem to waaaaaay overstate the distances between the East Coast and Midwest and then totally understate the distances of places west of the Mississippi. I had people whining on my blog for years about things like "Why does a Midwestern league like the Big Ten want Rutgers and Maryland?" and "Why is the ACC footprint soooooo large?", yet those are rounding error distances compared to where Gonzaga is in comparison with the rest of the Big East.

There are few people that believe that conferences need to be made up of institutional fits combined with revenue maximization potential more than me . However, there "bad geography" (e.g. the stretch from Nebraska to the East Coast that you see in the Big Ten and Big East)... and then there's TERRIBLE, HORRIFIC, UNSUSTAINABLE geography (which is Gonzaga compared to the rest of the Big East).

To be sure, Gonzaga is an unbelievable program with a ton of value. This is just a matter of geography and nothing more.

I'm sorry, man, and spin it any way you want, but, when you have schools that are already 1.4K miles apart, like Providence is to Creighton, there may be "sponges" for easier travel on both sides (for Provy, at least; there's some driving to do for Creighton to Marquette and DePaul), but distance considerations have already been marginalized. Plus, we seem to forget that there is no real denial Gonzaga and the Big East talk about this. So, if they don't drop it, why should other fans?

Fans look at the same maps we all do. This speculation wouldn't be a thing if there weren't tentpoles in Nebraska or Colorado already. It probably doesn't help any that Creighton is so far to the west, games with Gonzaga are closer for the Jays than games for the Jays in Provy, and comparable travel to St. John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova. And, what's crazy...Creighton fans don't seem to mind...still travel to the coasts to represent. Probably why many could stomach the add. It's no less a burden; those fans just go anywhere. Same may be true for Gonzaga, who goes all over the country in the non-conference anyway to compete at a top level. It's kind of already in their blood.

I don't disagree. Don't disagree that St. Louis is still out there looking to relieve DePaul's spot in the basement, and that would help ease the travel for the western front of the conference. SLU was a more travel-friendly candidate when it was overlooked for Creighton then, too. The Big East chose quality. Travel hub or no, again, quality add with Denver lax when others were out there.

There's also a bit of a difference in adding Denver for lacrosse only while Gonzaga would have to be all sports that both they and the Big East sponsor (since all conferences in div 1 sponsor basketball, Gonzaga can't have basketball in a different conference than its other sports without an exemption).
12-13-2017 09:32 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 09:32 AM)megadrone Wrote:  There's also a bit of a difference in adding Denver for lacrosse only while Gonzaga would have to be all sports that both they and the Big East sponsor (since all conferences in div 1 sponsor basketball, Gonzaga can't have basketball in a different conference than its other sports without an exemption).

I agree. However, it's not like Gonzaga's athletic department is that deep. Yeah, there are some budget busters in there, but it could be worse.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall during these conversations. I wonder if Gonzaga would dump a program to make it work.

Quote:Gonzaga does just fine without a major conference tie-in, are we forgetting their loss in the national championship? Heyday UNLV didn’t need a major conference either. The argument that Gonzaga would benefit from being in a better conference is invalid, because being in a lesser conference has not prohibited championship level success.

Within reason. And Gonzaga has teetered toward missing bids throughout their tournament appearance run. You can thank a weak conference for that around the conference final (with Gonzaga finding a way most years), but you can also thank that same weak conference for doing nothing to prop up Gonzaga's resume, too. And that happened to UNLV in the Big West, iirc; ranked one year and still snubbed a bid.

There is a benefit trading up for a better conference. Yeah, who knows how Gonzaga does with a consistently difficult schedule, but, play enough tough teams and win those games and you never have to worry. That's how it is across the P6. Not to mention, the recruitment benefits of playing in a major conference.

You also have to think long-term. Few isn't going to be coaching at Gonzaga forever. But, once he goes, what does the program do then? Hope that it makes the right hire; gets the right guy to continue on with the school and never look at other offers? Few is one in a million. You don't see guys stay on programs like that anymore unless they are the top programs in all of NCAA and can recruit anyone they want. Upgrade your conference, and now some of that risk is addressed. Still across the map, though.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2017 11:17 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
12-13-2017 11:09 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
I think Gonzaga is seriously watching what happens with Wichita in the AAC.
12-13-2017 11:22 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think Gonzaga is seriously watching what happens with Wichita in the AAC.

So Gonzaga to the MWC?
12-13-2017 11:27 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 11:27 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(12-13-2017 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think Gonzaga is seriously watching what happens with Wichita in the AAC.

So Gonzaga to the MWC?

I think it's very possible. I think they're going to be watching what happens with St Mary's this year. Also, lets say Gonzaga goes like 26-5(losing to say San Diego St and then 2x in WCC play). Their RPI for the year is only 28.8. What kind of seed do they get? Only like a 6 or 7? Meanwhile, Wichita goes 25-5. Their RPI is 9.5. They get a 2 or 3 seed. Things like that will force Gonzaga to do something.
12-13-2017 11:34 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 11:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-13-2017 11:27 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(12-13-2017 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think Gonzaga is seriously watching what happens with Wichita in the AAC.

So Gonzaga to the MWC?

I think it's very possible. I think they're going to be watching what happens with St Mary's this year. Also, lets say Gonzaga goes like 26-5(losing to say San Diego St and then 2x in WCC play). Their RPI for the year is only 28.8. What kind of seed do they get? Only like a 6 or 7? Meanwhile, Wichita goes 25-5. Their RPI is 9.5. They get a 2 or 3 seed. Things like that will force Gonzaga to do something.

MWC is currently #9 in Conference RPI
WCC is #19

MWC has a top 25 RPI team, WCC has zero
MWC has 3 top 50, WCC has 1
MWC has 5 top 75, WCC has 2
MWC has 6 top 100, WCC has 4
12-13-2017 11:41 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 11:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-13-2017 11:27 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(12-13-2017 11:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think Gonzaga is seriously watching what happens with Wichita in the AAC.

So Gonzaga to the MWC?

I think it's very possible. I think they're going to be watching what happens with St Mary's this year. Also, lets say Gonzaga goes like 26-5(losing to say San Diego St and then 2x in WCC play). Their RPI for the year is only 28.8. What kind of seed do they get? Only like a 6 or 7? Meanwhile, Wichita goes 25-5. Their RPI is 9.5. They get a 2 or 3 seed. Things like that will force Gonzaga to do something.

Yeah, it's kind of a no-win situation for them in the WCC even when they plough through the season. Are they deserving of a 1 or 2-seed when the majority of the schedule is mediocre or worse? When they look "human," and lose a few, they drop into that 6-line or the 7-10 stew...that HAS to get old very fast.

There's more relief going to a place like MWC, even if they stick out there. But, if Gonzaga went there, what's going on in Provo?
12-13-2017 11:42 AM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
thing is, if they go 28-3(so only losing to either SDSU or 1 game in the WCC)- their RPI is still only 18.4. That's still only like a 4 or 5 seed.

Even 29-2- with losses only to Florida and Villanova- gets them a RPI of 14.5.
12-13-2017 11:46 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 05:59 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 11:10 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-12-2017 01:39 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You wonder if this is a nudge to Fox to give them some numbers on what adding Gonzaga would do to a share, and whether there could be some extra change made for all to have to consider the geographic challenges for conference travel.

Like, we know we're a good match for each other, but help this work.

I think the travel issue can be a little overstated. Because of lacrosse, the footprint extends to Denver (and I think DU could be a good bet for member #12 if it means getting Gonzaga aboard).

I actually think that the travel issue is being understated and willfully/wishfully ignored by a lot of fans. You state that Big East lacrosse is in Denver... but note that Spokane is over 1000 miles further west from *Denver*. Chicago, Milwaukee and Indianapolis are actually all closer to Denver than Spokane is to Denver. Plus, Denver is a top airport hub with easy direct flights to and from virtually everywhere in the US, while Spokane has limited flights and non-revenue sports might have to be routed through places like Seattle and then bus over (which would exacerbate the travel issues even more than many people are thinking).

From what I've seen in conference realignment over the years, fans seem to waaaaaay overstate the distances between the East Coast and Midwest and then totally understate the distances of places west of the Mississippi. I had people whining on my blog for years about things like "Why does a Midwestern league like the Big Ten want Rutgers and Maryland?" and "Why is the ACC footprint soooooo large?", yet those are rounding error distances compared to where Gonzaga is in comparison with the rest of the Big East.

There are few people that believe that conferences need to be made up of institutional fits combined with revenue maximization potential more than me . However, there "bad geography" (e.g. the stretch from Nebraska to the East Coast that you see in the Big Ten and Big East)... and then there's TERRIBLE, HORRIFIC, UNSUSTAINABLE geography (which is Gonzaga compared to the rest of the Big East).

To be sure, Gonzaga is an unbelievable program with a ton of value. This is just a matter of geography and nothing more.

I'm sorry, man, and spin it any way you want, but, when you have schools that are already 1.4K miles apart, like Providence is to Creighton, there may be "sponges" for easier travel on both sides (for Provy, at least; there's some driving to do for Creighton to Marquette and DePaul), but distance considerations have already been marginalized. Plus, we seem to forget that there is no real denial Gonzaga and the Big East talk about this. So, if they don't drop it, why should other fans?

Fans look at the same maps we all do. This speculation wouldn't be a thing if there weren't tentpoles in Nebraska or Colorado already. It probably doesn't help any that Creighton is so far to the west, games with Gonzaga are closer for the Jays than games for the Jays in Provy, and comparable travel to St. John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova. And, what's crazy...Creighton fans don't seem to mind...still travel to the coasts to represent. Probably why many could stomach the add. It's no less a burden; those fans just go anywhere. Same may be true for Gonzaga, who goes all over the country in the non-conference anyway to compete at a top level. It's kind of already in their blood.

I don't disagree. Don't disagree that St. Louis is still out there looking to relieve DePaul's spot in the basement, and that would help ease the travel for the western front of the conference. SLU was a more travel-friendly candidate when it was overlooked for Creighton then, too. The Big East chose quality. Travel hub or no, again, quality add with Denver lax when others were out there.

Which is easier to fly into, Providence RI or Spokane WA? Also Creighton is the outlier not the median. For Marquette, Butler, Xavier and Depaul it's easier to fly to the north east and for Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Georgetown and Providence it's easier to fly to Omaha than Spokane.
12-13-2017 12:23 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Gonzaga/Big East
(12-13-2017 12:23 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(12-13-2017 05:59 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm sorry, man, and spin it any way you want, but, when you have schools that are already 1.4K miles apart, like Providence is to Creighton, there may be "sponges" for easier travel on both sides (for Provy, at least; there's some driving to do for Creighton to Marquette and DePaul), but distance considerations have already been marginalized. Plus, we seem to forget that there is no real denial Gonzaga and the Big East talk about this. So, if they don't drop it, why should other fans?

Fans look at the same maps we all do. This speculation wouldn't be a thing if there weren't tentpoles in Nebraska or Colorado already. It probably doesn't help any that Creighton is so far to the west, games with Gonzaga are closer for the Jays than games for the Jays in Provy, and comparable travel to St. John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova. And, what's crazy...Creighton fans don't seem to mind...still travel to the coasts to represent. Probably why many could stomach the add. It's no less a burden; those fans just go anywhere. Same may be true for Gonzaga, who goes all over the country in the non-conference anyway to compete at a top level. It's kind of already in their blood.

I don't disagree. Don't disagree that St. Louis is still out there looking to relieve DePaul's spot in the basement, and that would help ease the travel for the western front of the conference. SLU was a more travel-friendly candidate when it was overlooked for Creighton then, too. The Big East chose quality. Travel hub or no, again, quality add with Denver lax when others were out there.

Which is easier to fly into, Providence RI or Spokane WA? Also Creighton is the outlier not the median. For Marquette, Butler, Xavier and Depaul it's easier to fly to the north east and for Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Georgetown and Providence it's easier to fly to Omaha than Spokane.

BYU and San Diego were "travel partners" in the low-budget WCC. It wouldn't be a big deal for the Big East if they were to add two programs. You could set up Creighton and Gonzaga as travel partners such that teams visit Creighton and Gonzaga in a single road trip.

For instance, Villanova's Big East 9-game road schedule could look like this:

Road Trip 1
at Georgetown

Road Trip 2
at St. John's
at Seton Hall

Road Trip 3
at Providence
at UConn

Road Trip 4
at Xavier
at Butler

Road Trip 5
at DePaul
at Marquette

OR

at Gonzaga
at Creighton

Spokane has an airport to which visiting teams directly fly. They don't fly to Seattle and then bus to Spokane. 3-hour flight from Omaha to Spokane.

However, the travel for Gonzaga could get tiresome. 3.5-4 hour flights to Omaha, Chicago, Indiana/Ohio. At least TWO road trips to the East Coast with likely 5+ hours of travel on either end. Compared to 2-hour flights to the Bay Area and Utah; 3-hour flights to LA and San Diego.
12-13-2017 01:47 PM
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