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NMSU & GCU in Big West?
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #21
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:54 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:30 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:13 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 07:15 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Hey stugray, the Big West entered today as the 11th ranked conference in RP for men's basketballI. The WAC is currently 18th.
May I ask where you got this information? KenPom has the WAC as the 19th best conference and the BW at 25th (out of 32). Did you perhaps confuse the BW with the WCC?

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html
Thanks. I did not know you were referring to "live RPI" which fluctuates so much. Using live RPI then we can also say that UC Davis is currently the 18th best team in the nation (even though they lost to Utah Valley). I do not think college administrators would decide the quality of a basketball program on "live RPI" when discussing realignment possibilities.
http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-rpi.html

Perhaps, but it's nowhere near as bad as stu makes it out to be. The WAC is projected to finish 16th, the BW 17th. So much for a vast difference.
12-08-2017 02:07 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
JDGaucho,

The issue for NMSU is finances, and the Big West requires paying travel money. That kills it for them. They are already budget constrained. They don't have a big time football program like Boise State which was supposed to bring in an extra $10m a year (Big East promises not kept) to pay for Big West Olympics. This has always been the issue, and always will be. The RPI is very much secondary. And again look at a 5 or 6 year average rather than a single data point.

Yeah, I also don't see a hill of beans difference for the conference one is in if not the top 12 (6 majors, plus WCC, A10, AAC, with MWC and MVC on the verge of slipping out of the "upper mid-majors" category). They are all single bid.

But the WAC is weak, and you can see that by having some fun and moving GCU and NMSU to say the MVC or Horizon and then computing the changed Sagarin ratings. Those conferences move up a spot or two and the WAC falls several spots, almost to the bottom.

Jerry Coangelo has a vision of the best mid-major programs (we are talking those ranging from 60 to 120 in budget size but not in one of the six major conferences ... the AAC has almost all it's members in there ditto most of the A10 and WCC schools though a bit further down the scale, plus the likes of NMSU, GCU) forming conferences where they would be competing for more than one bid. The problem of course is these programs are scattered across different conferences. So I don't know how that ever happens beyond fan dreams.

JD, you are more a die-hard advocate for Big West expansion beyond California than an fair minded analyst of the reality. This thread is more about advocacy than reality.

The Big West is not an option for NMSU. Budget (travel fees) are the reason.

The Big West is not an option for GCU because of UC politics and for-profit schools, and frankly for faith based schools of any kind.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2017 06:26 PM by Stugray2.)
12-08-2017 04:09 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #23
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Well Stugray,
The Big West two years ago, 16th in RPI. Three years ago, 15th. It'll probably finish 16th or 17th this year. It's more than just a one year blip. Hawaii joining, Pacific leaving and Boise and SDSU's combined $3 million exit fees didn't come about until 2013.

NMSU would save some coin moving into the Big West with 10 California members and Hawaii. They'd certainly find it easier bribing their way back in than they did with the Sun Belt. In 2015 NMSU offered $2.4 million in travel subsidies over seven years to join the Sun Belt as a full member. Coastal Carolina was added instead. I know, the Belt is an FBS conference that gets a piece of the CFP pie, but it's telling nonetheless.

https://www.underdogdynasty.com/2015/9/1...sation-for

$2.4 million to the Big West could probably be spread out over a decade plus. $240k annually. Which might be what they pay right now with all those trips every year to Chicago, Kansas City, Edinburg, Seattle, Orem, Phoenix and Bakersfield.
12-08-2017 04:51 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 04:51 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Well Stugray,
The Big West two years ago, 16th in RPI. Three years ago, 15th. It'll probably finish 16th or 17th this year. It's more than just a one year blip. Hawaii joining, Pacific leaving and Boise and SDSU's combined $3 million exit fees didn't come about until 2013.

NMSU would save some coin moving into the Big West with 10 California members and Hawaii. They'd certainly find it easier bribing their way back in than they did with the Sun Belt. In 2015 NMSU offered $2.4 million in travel subsidies over seven years to join the Sun Belt as a full member. Coastal Carolina was added instead. I know, the Belt is an FBS conference that gets a piece of the CFP pie, but it's telling nonetheless.

https://www.underdogdynasty.com/2015/9/1...sation-for

$2.4 million to the Big West could probably be spread out over a decade plus. $240k annually. Which might be what they pay right now with all those trips every year to Chicago, Kansas City, Edinburg, Seattle, Orem, Phoenix and Bakersfield.

New Mexico State offered cash to take their FB. The Big West doesn't do that. So money to the Big West would be independent of that. And the fee the Big West would ask for is considerably higher, they asked for twice that from Boise State, plus an extra entry and exit fee (which they settled for $1m). When you calculate inflation, the figure today would be closer to $700,000 a year, and likely in perpetuity, not expiring.

Again for a sideways move and not solving football, and still adding travel costs to Hawai'i (while paying Hawai'i's expense to come to Las Cruces; so you are paying for a team trip to Honolulu and back whether you are hosting or visiting for every sport) is a back breaker.

Again you are advocating something that is not happening. And yes I understand you really really really truly want it to happen. I get that.

But it's not going to happen, and you know it. It's a non-starter.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 03:23 PM by Stugray2.)
12-08-2017 06:35 PM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #25
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-08-2017 12:37 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.

In fairness, GCU is fully accredited and is a doctorate-granting university. The comment that GCU has poor academic credentials is based on its low ranking among institutions classified as National Universities by U.S. News & World Report and on its lack of reported research spending.

Seven current and future Big West members and GCU are among the 300 institutions included in the National University rankings for 2018. The notable difference is that all seven of the Big West schools are Tier 1, that is, they are among the top 230 and have been been given specific individual rankings as follows:

37 UC Santa Barbara
42 UC Irvine
42 UC San Diego
46 UC Davis
124 UC Riverside
159 UH Manoa
202 CSU Fullerton

GCU by comparison is Tier 2, which means it is among the bottom 70 universities for which individual rankings are not disclosed.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/gra...rsity-1074

With respect to research spending, an important metric for determining the academic prestige of doctoral universities, all 11 of the Big West's current and future members are in the upper half of the 899 U.S. colleges and universities identified by the National Science Foundation as having spent at least $150,000 on research in 2016. Six of the 11 spent over $100 million and are ranked as follows:

7 UC San Diego
27 UC Davis
67 UC Irvine
77 UH Manoa
98 UC Santa Barbara
127 UC Riverside

The remaining five spent between $5 million and $100 million and are ranked as follows:

280 Cal Poly
289 CSU Long Beach
290 CSU Northridge
322 CSU Bakersfield
384 CSU Fullerton

GCU on the other hand is nowhere to be found on the list.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

GCU does tout on its website that the Carnegie Foundation has classified it as a "Doctoral - Moderate Research Activity" university. However a close reading of the Carnegie Foundation's criteria for assigning classifications reveals that this label is applied to any university that grants at least 20 doctorates per year but for which research spending is comparatively low or indeterminable.

http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/me.../basic.php
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 01:56 PM by HawaiiMongoose.)
12-09-2017 01:34 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
The research is the key thing with the UCs. And as with BYU being opposed to a point of rabid insanity by P12 public schools, including Cal and UCLA, says that the politics of the UCs will not accept a religious school. They would have to be like UOP or TCU, where the affiliation is barely coincidental and historical (as it is for say Rutgers, Princeton and Harvard), which is to say something in the past.

So GCU is facing 5 hard no votes from the UC schools, before even speculating about the Cal State's (one or two surely have attitudes similar to the UC Chancellors, but I suspect most are indifferent) or Hawai'i (probably indifferent given their long standing association with BYU). In short there is no way GCU could get an invite off the ground.

The Big Sky presents many fewer problems because those are mostly "Red State" schools, and otherwise regional schools who like the Cal States (CSUB was fine with GCU and CBU, and supposedly Sac State pitched GCU to the Big Sky) are not philosophically opposed to GCU. So a Big Sky invite is possible if GCU were interested. There is no stigma like the UCs would feel, so nothing like the same level of opposition.

For what it's worth the Big Sky would likely consider either GCU or NMSU. But I have seen nothing to indicate even the faintest interest in Seattle or anyone beyond those two.
12-09-2017 03:33 PM
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ProfScott Offline
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Post: #27
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-09-2017 01:34 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:37 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.

In fairness, GCU is fully accredited and is a doctorate-granting university. The comment that GCU has poor academic credentials is based on its low ranking among institutions classified as National Universities by U.S. News & World Report and on its lack of reported research spending.

Seven current and future Big West members and GCU are among the 300 institutions included in the National University rankings for 2018. The notable difference is that all seven of the Big West schools are Tier 1, that is, they are among the top 230 and have been been given specific individual rankings as follows:

37 UC Santa Barbara
42 UC Irvine
42 UC San Diego
46 UC Davis
124 UC Riverside
159 UH Manoa
202 CSU Fullerton

GCU by comparison is Tier 2, which means it is among the bottom 70 universities for which individual rankings are not disclosed.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/gra...rsity-1074

With respect to research spending, an important metric for determining the academic prestige of doctoral universities, all 11 of the Big West's current and future members are in the upper half of the 899 U.S. colleges and universities identified by the National Science Foundation as having spent at least $150,000 on research in 2016. Six of the 11 spent over $100 million and are ranked as follows:

7 UC San Diego
27 UC Davis
67 UC Irvine
77 UH Manoa
98 UC Santa Barbara
127 UC Riverside

The remaining five spent between $5 million and $100 million and are ranked as follows:

280 Cal Poly
289 CSU Long Beach
290 CSU Northridge
322 CSU Bakersfield
384 CSU Fullerton

GCU on the other hand is nowhere to be found on the list.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

GCU does tout on its website that the Carnegie Foundation has classified it as a "Doctoral - Moderate Research Activity" university. However a close reading of the Carnegie Foundation's criteria for assigning classifications reveals that this label is applied to any university that grants at least 20 doctorates per year but for which research spending is comparatively low or indeterminable.

http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/me.../basic.php
Thanks! Your information here is helpful since it defines what the UC schools determine as academically sound institutions, namely the US News and World Report. I 100% agree that GCU is not yet one of those institutions since we are in the infant stages of our doctoral programs and in doing major research. We are also predominantly a teaching institution and not a research institution. However, I would also 100% disagree that the measurements used by US News and World Report are what defines a quality education, especially at the undergraduate level.
12-09-2017 05:45 PM
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RunnerBall Offline
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Post: #28
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
(12-09-2017 01:34 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 12:37 PM)ProfScott Wrote:  
(12-08-2017 02:34 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(12-07-2017 09:13 PM)RunnerBall Wrote:  

I follow UH athletics very closely but don't have any insider-type connections that would give me insights into UH's voting tendencies or influence on other Big West conference members.

Nonetheless I'm pretty confident UH would oppose adding GCU or NMSU to the conference. In GCU's case the issue would be institutional incompatibility stemming from GCU's for-profit status and poor academic credentials. In NMSU's case the issue would be travel; Honolulu to Las Cruces is a tough road trip.

I think UH would be fine with the Big West expanding to 12 with any academically respected university in Washington, Oregon or California with direct air service to and from Honolulu. Seattle would be acceptable, as would Portland State or Sac State if football were not an obstacle.
Numerous times people have mentioned GCU's poor academic credentials on this site. Would someone please provide documentation for this? As I understand it, the average incoming GPA for students at GCU is around 3.4 with a very high graduating rate. In terms of online, I admit this is lower. However, all universities that start increasing their online presence tend to have a lower GPA and graduation rate for their non-traditional online students. It is the nature of the beast that these career students come and go. If we only compare apples to apples (traditional campus based students) how are GCU's academic credentials any different? Documentation please. Thanks.
Also please do not provide data that is 5+ years old. GCU is not the same university it was even 5 years ago. There are now 19,000+ students attending on campus. 5 years ago (2012) it was only about 4,000. In five years we have added state of the art STEM programs, improved the number and quality of full-time faculty, and raised the incoming GPA every single year. All while increasing enrollment tremendously.

In fairness, GCU is fully accredited and is a doctorate-granting university. The comment that GCU has poor academic credentials is based on its low ranking among institutions classified as National Universities by U.S. News & World Report and on its lack of reported research spending.

Seven current and future Big West members and GCU are among the 300 institutions included in the National University rankings for 2018. The notable difference is that all seven of the Big West schools are Tier 1, that is, they are among the top 230 and have been been given specific individual rankings as follows:

37 UC Santa Barbara
42 UC Irvine
42 UC San Diego
46 UC Davis
124 UC Riverside
159 UH Manoa
202 CSU Fullerton

GCU by comparison is Tier 2, which means it is among the bottom 70 universities for which individual rankings are not disclosed.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ran...iversities
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/gra...rsity-1074

With respect to research spending, an important metric for determining the academic prestige of doctoral universities, all 11 of the Big West's current and future members are in the upper half of the 899 U.S. colleges and universities identified by the National Science Foundation as having spent at least $150,000 on research in 2016. Six of the 11 spent over $100 million and are ranked as follows:

7 UC San Diego
27 UC Davis
67 UC Irvine
77 UH Manoa
98 UC Santa Barbara
127 UC Riverside

The remaining five spent between $5 million and $100 million and are ranked as follows:

280 Cal Poly
289 CSU Long Beach
290 CSU Northridge
322 CSU Bakersfield
384 CSU Fullerton

GCU on the other hand is nowhere to be found on the list.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

GCU does tout on its website that the Carnegie Foundation has classified it as a "Doctoral - Moderate Research Activity" university. However a close reading of the Carnegie Foundation's criteria for assigning classifications reveals that this label is applied to any university that grants at least 20 doctorates per year but for which research spending is comparatively low or indeterminable.

http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/me.../basic.php

Slight correction. CSUB is actually 455.
12-09-2017 09:13 PM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #29
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Oops, my bad, I reported the ranking for CSUSB instead of CSUB. 05-footinmouth

I do know the difference. Sorry about that.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 11:29 PM by HawaiiMongoose.)
12-09-2017 09:35 PM
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SDHornet Offline
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Post: #30
RE: NMSU & GCU in Big West?
Curious what the metrics on that data are. Sac State (2016) is listed at 267...I have a hard time seeing Sac doing that much research...a lot must have changed since I was stumbling around the quad after a liquid lunch over 10 years ago...
12-10-2017 12:09 AM
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