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When PJ and his Tasmanian devil persona bowled into Kalamazoo you could tell IMMEDIATELY that something was going to change. Was it going to be for the better? For the worse? We didn't know... we just knew there was something firestorm about this guy... He wasn't going to be denied his goals!

He takes it on the chin first year during that 1-11 stint and yet it seemed to only stoke the his fire of motivation. His speeches an excitement seemed to be never ending... he was going to take us to the promised land even as we sat here and groaned about a near goose egg win column...

The rest is PJ history...

Enter Tim... kind of coasts in and gives a less than inspiring introduction to his players... talks about commitment and what its like to BE A BRONCO... with his LETS RIDE mantra... but delivery is so milk toast it seems like these are questions not battle cries...

My biggest concern... and what we witnessed with Cubit and even Darnell to a point... COMPLACENCY... It felt like during those tenures that we just kind of hoped for enough luck to make it to the MACC... LUCK! Took some fliers on some interesting kids and basically felt like we just hoped it would all come together. I am not sure COMPLACENCY was even a word with a definition to the previous staff. It just feels like nobody on this current staff is showing much concern for not only the poor game planning and game day team morale... but nobody is showing a concern for the unnatural amount of season ending injuries... I have it on good authority from individuals who were in the locker room during the Fleck years and this past year that Lester's post game to his team are the absolute OPPOSITE with regard to excitement and just plain snoozers... PJ drove me nuts but he always seemed to fire up his teams... Even little ole Lou Holtz had a fire in his belly and would get animated... There is a positive to having an even keel coach when it comes to staying focused... but come on... there's even keel... and then there's what I saw on the sidelines this season. Lester just seemed to laugh off mistakes and poor execution...

If we fall into complacency, its going to be a slow decent back into looking up at the NIU's and Toledo's of the MAC... Fleck seemed to want to pound the other teams into the ground... not just on the field, but on the recruiting trail... out working his fellow coaches daily and constantly stoking the fire in the team to have that same take no prisoners attitude... I don't see this from the current staff whatsoever..

I am NOT a fan of PJ... I am a fan of what he was able to accomplish here... and I merely am using what I saw from the previous staff in comparison to what I am seeing from this staff... and maybe there's a reason that PJ's demeanor and work ethic worked here... and its something that I just don't see currently... I REALLY HOPE I AM WRONG...

GO BRONCOS!

At some point, we have to let PJ go. You're never going to get a coach with that personality again. It has its downsides too, it can wear thin on people really quick. There's no reason a personality like Tony Dungy is doomed to failure.

No matter what the personality of the coach, everyone is quick to blame losing on that. Jim Caldwell is too nice. John L. Smith is too crazy. Lane Kiffin is too immature. Bobby Ross was too mean.

Lester is not PJ, we know that. At that end of the day there are many styles to being a successful coach. Nobody was more low key than George Allen of the Washington Redskins, circa 1970's. So what? He won

Lester's first year was a challenge for a lot of reasons we all know about. It's over with, let's move on. Let's see how our first recruiting class looks and then we'll evaluate how things are going in Spring Camp.

I expect to see vast improvement in our Offense after Spring Ball. WRers holding onto balls, QB's running the offense with all the complexities and wrinkles. We should be a much better program next season. No more excuses.

If we finish with another mediocre season in 2018 then I agree, it's time to start getting concerned. But I saw enough this season to give me assurance we're on the right path.

And Lester is going to have to recognize that a key reason PJ Fleck earned the top salary in the MAC is he was tasked to bring EXCITEMENT back to the program. There are a lot of ways to do that, but it's a requirement of the job. This is no longer Div III Elmhurst or Wheaton College where winning 7-8 games every season assured you security. That's why it pays so much better.

But, let's give him time to introduce HIS system for winning. It took PJ 2-3 years to get us to that level where we were dominating the Big Boys in the MAC west. Didn't happen overnight.

Winning cures all.

Hence my hope is that I am completely wrong about this... The intensity of the last staff was impressive... then again you need only head over the Minn boards to see what they think of that firebrand PJ... Literally mirror's our frustration with our new coach over here...

The one major difference I see in Lester & Co compared to Cubit is recruiting. I was student during the Cubit era. It seemed like recruiting was average to above average. I'm seeing the current coaching staff work hard and getting results up to this point. Can't wait to see how the 2018 class ends up.

Maybe the new players Lester brings are more responsive to his personality and style. I think it was a big culture shock to some of the players who were use to Fleck. Same thing happened with Cubit players adjusting to Fleck.

Ultimately, there are still questions about this current coaching staff. Next year will be telling.

So any coach who doesn’t go 13-0 is a return to Cubit? Is that the 9-4, 9-4, 7-4 Cubit, or just the 4-8 Cubit? And Cubit couldn’t recruit???? Biggers, Demas, Scheffler, Hiller, Beavers, Carder, Terrell, Currie, Zamora, Celiscar, Moten. Nope, couldn’t recruit

Peej’s #1 classes were sketchy. He lost 34 recruits before the end of their first season.

(12-05-2017 10:05 AM)RunningGame Wrote:  At some point, we have to let PJ go. You're never going to get a coach with that personality again. It has its downsides too, it can wear thin on people really quick. There's no reason a personality like Tony Dungy is doomed to failure.

No matter what the personality of the coach, everyone is quick to blame losing on that. Jim Caldwell is too nice. John L. Smith is too crazy. Lane Kiffin is too immature. Bobby Ross was too mean.

Small children respond well to catchy cliches, and cool acronyms. But at some point it’s all white noise, and the adult has to emerge and lead. Peej rode into Minni and tried a rinse and repeat with a group of veterans who had won 9 games being coached by an adult. His schtick didn’t play, and the results are obvious. Unlike Lester he didn’t lose a gaggle of starters, and contrary to his new narrative, it wasn’t a rebuild nor a culture in need of change.

Lester isn’t a phony dick weed, and these young men will figure that out if they haven’t already. Next year is a rebuild for much of the MAC West. Western will be fine, and all the doom and gloom and Fleck love will quickly fade.

(12-05-2017 11:32 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  So any coach who doesn’t go 13-0 is a return to Cubit? Is that the 9-4, 9-4, 7-4 Cubit, or just the 4-8 Cubit? And Cubit couldn’t recruit???? Biggers, Demas, Scheffler, Hiller, Beavers, Carder, Terrell, Currie, Zamora, Celiscar, Moten. Nope, couldn’t recruit

Peej’s #1 classes were sketchy. He lost 34 recruits before the end of their first season.

How many MAC Championships did Cubit win?

How many MAC Championship Games did Cubit lead WMU to?

What was Cubit's record against Central Michigan?

Under Bill Cubit WMU = We're Mediocre University.

Gotta compete for championships and beat your rival for survival.

Results matter.

(12-05-2017 11:53 AM)GullLake Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:32 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  So any coach who doesn’t go 13-0 is a return to Cubit? Is that the 9-4, 9-4, 7-4 Cubit, or just the 4-8 Cubit? And Cubit couldn’t recruit???? Biggers, Demas, Scheffler, Hiller, Beavers, Carder, Terrell, Currie, Zamora, Celiscar, Moten. Nope, couldn’t recruit

Peej’s #1 classes were sketchy. He lost 34 recruits before the end of their first season.

How many MAC Championships did Cubit win?

How many MAC Championship Games did Cubit lead WMU to?

What was Cubit's record against Central Michigan?

Under Bill Cubit WMU = We're Mediocre University.

Gotta compete for championships and beat your rival for survival.

Results matter.

It’s the MAC not the SEC. since going to two divisions only two teams haven’t played for a MAC Championship. It’s a parity league. You’re way to hung up on hardware. There is no BAMA or OSU in the MAC.

lncluding this year and thru 2019 I'll bet Lester has more wins than PJ does at Minnesota. His 2018 Minny recruiting class is a few notches above Lesters. It only takes a couple Rival "stars" to move the needle 20 points. Truth be told Minny 2017 and 2018 is bringing in mid range P5/upper range G5 talent. With Frost at Nebraska the Cornhuskers will be on par with Wisc and Iowa State dominating the Minn/Iowa/Wisc state high school recruiting areas. Frost will clean house in Neb. Unless Iowa steps it up they fight for the rest with Minny. I don't see Minny at the top of the B10 West. This isn't WMU going against CMU, NW, Ball State, Toledo, Purdue, Ill for recruits, different ballgame.

(12-05-2017 11:02 AM)WesternSkillet Wrote:  I was student during the Cubit era. It seemed like recruiting was average to above average. I'm seeing the current coaching staff work hard and getting results up to this point. Can't wait to see how the 2018 class ends up.

Decided to look up and compare recruiting rankings. My memory was right about having average or above average recruiting rankings.

Recruit rankings via 247

2005 Natl Rank: 81 MAC Rank: 2
2006 Natl Rank: 90 MAC Rank: 8
2007 Natl Rank: 101 MAC Rank: 7
2008 Natl Rank: 89 MAC Rank: 3
2009 Natl Rank: 98 MAC Rank: 7
2010 Natl Rank: 88 MAC Rank: 2
2011 Natl Rank: 82 MAC Rank: 2
2012 Natl Rank: 91 MAC Rank: 4


2017 Natl Rank: 89 MAC Rank: 3 (TL finishing it off late)
2018 Natl Rank: 70 MAC Rank: 2 (as of 12-5)
Recruiting is strong right now.

(12-05-2017 12:00 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:53 AM)GullLake Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:32 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  So any coach who doesn’t go 13-0 is a return to Cubit? Is that the 9-4, 9-4, 7-4 Cubit, or just the 4-8 Cubit? And Cubit couldn’t recruit???? Biggers, Demas, Scheffler, Hiller, Beavers, Carder, Terrell, Currie, Zamora, Celiscar, Moten. Nope, couldn’t recruit

Peej’s #1 classes were sketchy. He lost 34 recruits before the end of their first season.

How many MAC Championships did Cubit win?

How many MAC Championship Games did Cubit lead WMU to?

What was Cubit's record against Central Michigan?

Under Bill Cubit WMU = We're Mediocre University.

Gotta compete for championships and beat your rival for survival.

Results matter.

It’s the MAC not the SEC. since going to two divisions only two teams haven’t played for a MAC Championship. It’s a parity league. You’re way to hung up on hardware. There is no BAMA or OSU in the MAC.

While I'm glad we got the MAC championship monkey off our back last year, I agree in that having a consistent winning program is key.

Ask any observer who the strongest MAC programs have been during the past decade or two, people would say NIU and Toledo. Yet Toledo hadn't won the MAC in over a dozen years until last weekend. It's that they consistently put in 8- and 9-win seasons and strike fear in the hearts of opponents (they beat scUM in Ann Arbor during their "bad" year in which Amstutz got fired, oddly enough). That, in the long run, is more satisfying than some one-off championship like Buffalo and Akron had.

Too hung up on hardware...

Wow.

Lowered expectations will produce lower results. I hope Lester and co. turn it around. They have the resources to consistently be a MACC contender and bowl participant. Expecting any less is silly. Like I've said before, our fan base makes/accepts excuses that they don't in Toledo or NIU. The results follow.

The hardware is important. It's why the Cannon exists. It's why the Michigan MAC exists. We actually have a trophy room for a reason.

(12-05-2017 12:00 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:53 AM)GullLake Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:32 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  So any coach who doesn’t go 13-0 is a return to Cubit? Is that the 9-4, 9-4, 7-4 Cubit, or just the 4-8 Cubit? And Cubit couldn’t recruit???? Biggers, Demas, Scheffler, Hiller, Beavers, Carder, Terrell, Currie, Zamora, Celiscar, Moten. Nope, couldn’t recruit

Peej’s #1 classes were sketchy. He lost 34 recruits before the end of their first season.

How many MAC Championships did Cubit win?

How many MAC Championship Games did Cubit lead WMU to?

What was Cubit's record against Central Michigan?

Under Bill Cubit WMU = We're Mediocre University.

Gotta compete for championships and beat your rival for survival.

Results matter.

It’s the MAC not the SEC. since going to two divisions only two teams haven’t played for a MAC Championship. It’s a parity league. You’re way to hung up on hardware. There is no BAMA or OSU in the MAC.

Never said there was.

When your coach loses 5-in-a-row to your arch-rival, and never gets within a sniff of the MAC Championship Game, you know you have a significant problem. It is not a "hardware" issue, it is a competence issue.

I never said WMU had to WIN the MAC Championship annually, but be in contention for it and beat CMU.

Results matter.

(12-05-2017 01:43 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Too hung up on hardware...

Wow.

Lowered expectations will produce lower results. I hope Lester and co. turn it around. They have the resources to consistently be a MACC contender and bowl participant. Expecting any less is silly. Like I've said before, our fan base makes/accepts excuses that they don't in Toledo or NIU. The results follow.

(DE) you seriously think the degree to which fans make/accept excuses make the slightest difference in anything?

The hardware is important. It's why the Cannon exists. It's why the Michigan MAC exists. We actually have a trophy room for a reason.

We all admit WMU isn’t Boise. Nor do we expect to go even 11-2 every year. However anyone that thinks Toledo/NIU are the same as Buffalo and Akron are delusional. You may not win it every year but you should clearly be in the top tier. Believe it or not there is actually great divide between the top and bottom of the MAC.

9 win seasons should be an expectation for the amount of money being put into the program. Otherwise invest it in hockey/basketball where that kind of money will buy you a lot more.

Yes, yes, Cubit was just as successful as Fleck. Forget the overall winning %. Forget that he won 8+ games twice in 8 years compared to 3 in 4. It's about a CONSISTENT winner (????)

(12-05-2017 02:06 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 01:43 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  Too hung up on hardware...

Wow.

Lowered expectations will produce lower results. I hope Lester and co. turn it around. They have the resources to consistently be a MACC contender and bowl participant. Expecting any less is silly. Like I've said before, our fan base makes/accepts excuses that they don't in Toledo or NIU. The results follow.

(DE) you seriously think the degree to which fans make/accept excuses make the slightest difference in anything?

The hardware is important. It's why the Cannon exists. It's why the Michigan MAC exists. We actually have a trophy room for a reason.

DE: Yes. Fans either spend or don't spend their $$ on the program. How do you think Admin decided to move on from Cubit? Fans and donors were sick of mediocrity. Sick of losing to our rivals.

(12-05-2017 01:46 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 12:00 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:53 AM)GullLake Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 11:32 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  So any coach who doesn’t go 13-0 is a return to Cubit? Is that the 9-4, 9-4, 7-4 Cubit, or just the 4-8 Cubit? And Cubit couldn’t recruit???? Biggers, Demas, Scheffler, Hiller, Beavers, Carder, Terrell, Currie, Zamora, Celiscar, Moten. Nope, couldn’t recruit

Peej’s #1 classes were sketchy. He lost 34 recruits before the end of their first season.

How many MAC Championships did Cubit win?

How many MAC Championship Games did Cubit lead WMU to?

What was Cubit's record against Central Michigan?

Under Bill Cubit WMU = We're Mediocre University.

Gotta compete for championships and beat your rival for survival.

Results matter.

It’s the MAC not the SEC. since going to two divisions only two teams haven’t played for a MAC Championship. It’s a parity league. You’re way to hung up on hardware. There is no BAMA or OSU in the MAC.

Never said there was.

When your coach loses 5-in-a-row to your arch-rival, and never gets within a sniff of the MAC Championship Game, you know you have a significant problem. It is not a "hardware" issue, it is a competence issue.

I never said WMU had to WIN the MAC Championship annually, but be in contention for it and beat CMU.

Results matter.

Cubit won his last two vs his rival, and his teams weren’t good. That 5 in a row was during the pinnacle of Chimp football, and even then all but 1 of those went to the wire.