A constant theme in the 15 years of Shaver teams is trouble defending and poor rebounding. I get it that our student athletes may not be as athletic and long as some of our opponents, but defense and rebounding are almost 90% effort. Our defensive deficiencies are so consistent that I wonder if we spend meaningful time on it or teach it well. The mistakes I see are guys out of position, turning their heads to watch the ball, little communicating, and little knowledge as to whose block out is there responsibility. I was lucky in high school that every practice began with the shell drill - a player position and help drill. Everyone had to work in unison. All 5 guys have to do the correct thing. You did what you were supposed to and you knew where everyone else was. It was done everyday religiously to the point that it is unconsciously done. When a unit gets it, it is something to behold. It is a great drill for teaching and reinforcing responsibilities in man defense. Man responsibilities in the shell change to box out responsibilities on the shot. I remember getting ran to death by coaches if a guy got an offensive rebound without a body on him. That's what drove me nuts on that ODU final tip in. How in the world do you have 2 guys with an uncontested tip at such a crucial moment? Poor defensive fundamentals. When I got to college, it was much more relaxed on defensive concepts. It amazed me how hard it was for D1 guys to grasp fundamental concepts that I learned as a high school freshman. I guess that's my rant. It's not that I don't think the guys aren't willing defenders, I think that they don't practice it enough or don't know how to play team defense enough to be consistent as a unit.

(11-27-2017 11:40 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  A constant theme in the 15 years of Shaver teams is trouble defending and poor rebounding. I get it that our student athletes may not be as athletic and long as some of our opponents, but defense and rebounding are almost 90% effort. Our defensive deficiencies are so consistent that I wonder if we spend meaningful time on it or teach it well. The mistakes I see are guys out of position, turning their heads to watch the ball, little communicating, and little knowledge as to whose block out is there responsibility. I was lucky in high school that every practice began with the shell drill - a player position and help drill. Everyone had to work in unison. All 5 guys have to do the correct thing. You did what you were supposed to and you knew where everyone else was. It was done everyday religiously to the point that it is unconsciously done. When a unit gets it, it is something to behold. It is a great drill for teaching and reinforcing responsibilities in man defense. Man responsibilities in the shell change to box out responsibilities on the shot. I remember getting ran to death by coaches if a guy got an offensive rebound without a body on him. That's what drove me nuts on that ODU final tip in. How in the world do you have 2 guys with an uncontested tip at such a crucial moment? Poor defensive fundamentals. When I got to college, it was much more relaxed on defensive concepts. It amazed me how hard it was for D1 guys to grasp fundamental concepts that I learned as a high school freshman. I guess that's my rant. It's not that I don't think the guys aren't willing defenders, I think that they don't practice it enough or don't know how to play team defense enough to be consistent as a unit.

Were you also surprised that we did not put pressure on the player bring the ball up the court to at least make his trip into the lane more difficult? I will say this, however. I do not think that the defensive deficiencies of this year's team is do to a lack of effort. I think that this year's team really gets it and Saturday night's game made me as proud of a Tribe team as I can remember. If they can find that kind of effort and intensity on a nightly basis, I really believe that we will be the CAA surprise team this year.

It's definitely not an effort issue. It is ball watching and the lack of understanding of team defense concepts. On the final possession, When David was beat by their guard, there was no unified rotation. One guy slid over to help David and then the next guy got caught watching and didn't rotate. That leads to uncontested offensive rebounds- a W&M specialty. It's hard to play the team/help defense Shaver wants if all 5 players aren't on the same page. Even having 1 player out of sorts can muck up the defense. Guys need to know there responsibilities and be on the same page. Running a team defense correctly is as important as running an offensive set correctly. If guys don't do what they are supposed to do, it ain't gonna work consistently.

So is this on Tony? I had always heard that he was a defense first kind of coach but that isn't borne out by the play on the court.

Rocco in 3...2...1...

:-)

(11-27-2017 12:51 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  So is this on Tony? I had always heard that he was a defense first kind of coach but that isn't borne out by the play on the court.

I really have no clue. My high school coach was a big Dean Smith guy and most of what we did mirrored UNC. I would imagine that Shaver's defensive upbringing would be very similar. I think Shaver and assistants are probably teaching them correctly. I'm not sure how much coaching the kids got coming in out of high school and I'm not sure how much emphasis it gets during a practice week.

(11-27-2017 12:51 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  So is this on Tony? I had always heard that he was a defense first kind of coach but that isn't borne out by the play on the court.

The players have changed, the assistants have changed, but W&M being at the bottom of the conference defensively hasn't changed. It has to be on Shaver by process of elimination. This year there's some mitigating circumstances. They only have one big man who can play at a high level, so he can't risk picking up cheap fouls which means he has to let people go instead of challenging them. Duke's done this in the past with Parker or Okafor because they need him on the floor which has hurt their defensive numbers. Part of why Kentucky usually rates highly defensively is their big men can afford to play physically and pick up fouls due to them having a crapton of big men available. If this were an isolated instance it would be one thing but this is a feature, not a bug.

Now if you can only be good on one side of the ball I'm fine being all-offense. If you aren't going to be great you should be entertaining, and 80-79 is more fun than 50-49 slugfests. I don't think you can reliably count on letting the opponent shoot over 60% and win.

I think the problem is due more to ability that effort.

The biggest problem is most of our backcourt players just don't have any lateral quickness (outside of maybe Pierce). This means that our players are going to be getting dribbled by constantly. Ballwatching and rotations have also been a huge problem. Also, too many guys trying to stop a layup has also been big problems. On that last layup ODU got with 1.5 seconds left, 3 or 4 of our guys went to block the first layup, leaving Cohn to have to boxout 3 people which is just impossible and led to an easy ODU putback.

When our defense learns to rotate correctly, I think the defense will be markedly improved. But dribble penetration will always be a problem with our teams, and odds are with all the rotations needed that either a) somebody will blow an assignment, or b) the team will grab an offensive rebound.

I agree guard penetration will always be an issue, but good rotations and help will close that direct path to the hoop for a layup & force the guards to make the correct pass or a contested shot. Having proper rotations and help D should help limit the chuck the ball at the hoop and chase the offensive rebound offense that teams like to use against us. I don't think the Tribe will ever be confused with a good defensive team, but if they can do even an average job their consistently efficient offense should be able to keep them with most anyone on their schedule.

The last time that we were really solid defensively was back when we were, because of talent, mostly using a Match-up Zone defense. One of the Schnieder years we were so good at that zone that I used to just chuckle when teams would have no clue where to move the ball with our shifting zone, because no one was open.

I still feel that is our best base defense, because of our lack of lateral quickness, but I know Tony does prefer a solid man-to-man. Maybe a good mix is in order man-to-man, matchup and our 1-2-2/3-2 zone. (Also, in my opinion, the 3-2 was much more effective on Saturday).

Athleticism covers up a lot of mistakes, but doesn't prevent you from playing good team D. It just takes an investment in and commitment to playing defense. I know that is easier said than done. Those better defensive Schneider teams weren't any more athletic than current teams.

(11-27-2017 03:40 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Athleticism covers up a lot of mistakes, but doesn't prevent you from playing good team D. It just takes an investment in and commitment to playing defense. I know that is easier said than done. Those better defensive Schneider teams weren't any more athletic than current teams.

+1...

Good man to man is all about moving your feet which we do not consistently do well. Elon is no more athletic than us, yet much stronger defensively. There are agility drills for improving lateral movement. I remember them ad nauseum from HS days where defense was 70 % of practice.

Hard to be good offensively, as well as, defensively. Boils down to players being able to stay focused on every single possession, one at a time. Rotating a lot of players can, also, dilute that focus and team defense. It's really why Schneider and McCurdy's senior year run was so exceptional because of that team's ability to focus on every possession at both ends. Not sure if we're still utilizing the same sports psychologist that helped them with that mantra.

ODU's last play was actually very well executed by them with respect to player position, the Stith pick on the ball pressure at halfcourt, giving their guard the opportunity to penetrate and dish inside or back out beyond the arc, or attempt the layup with time for secondary follow-up. Tough to do well within the time constraints, but give their experienced team credit. That was not their first rodeo attempt at that play. First rule is always stop the ball which we failed to do. Players got caught in limbo and were late with their choices. Can always second guess those scenarios, but fortune shined and hopefully they will learn from it.

Was encouraged by Justin's post game comments that Tony is pushing him to take a far more active rebounding role with his athleticism and hops, and that he is embracing that challenge. We will need it.

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(11-27-2017 03:13 PM)billymac Wrote:  The last time that we were really solid defensively was back when we were, because of talent, mostly using a Match-up Zone defense. One of the Schnieder years we were so good at that zone that I used to just chuckle when teams would have no clue where to move the ball with our shifting zone, because no one was open.

I still feel that is our best base defense, because of our lack of lateral quickness, but I know Tony does prefer a solid man-to-man. Maybe a good mix is in order man-to-man, matchup and our 1-2-2/3-2 zone. (Also, in my opinion, the 3-2 was much more effective on Saturday).

The 2010 team was 5th in scoring defense and field goal percentage in the conference, 71st in scoring defense nationally, 81st nationally in FG% allowed, 7th in conference in3 point % defense, 5th in the CAA in rebounding defense, 8th in the conference in KenPom, 185th nationally. They weren't great on defense but they tried and ended up being respectable. Their defense didn't lose them the CAA title game so much as it was Schneider just having a terrible game at the worst possible time. Last year's team was 296th in scoring defense. We won't revisit their defensive numbers against UNCW in the tourney because I don't want to make anyone sick. They're playing at a higher tempo now (partially because of Cohn, partially because of the shorter shot clock) so that explains some of why they give up more points now but not all of it. If you believe at all in advanced metrics (I like them, though I'm not going to claim them as gospel) no one last year provided 1 defensive Win Share. 2010 had Schneider and Kitts. 2015 had Tarpey and Prewitt. This season so far no one other than Mustafa has a positive defensive box score plus/minus.

On Saturday the zone worked pretty well because ODU isn't a great shooting team from distance so they couldn't just shoot W&M out of the zone.

The 2010 team also was painful to watch offensively for long periods of time. The semifinal game in the tourney that year against Northeastern was one of the worst offensive performances in Tribe history, but we won.

But that team overall was still one of the best of the Shaver era and I think Danny Sumner was another reason why. He was a vital player in that zone with great length and athleticism.

I would love for us to be in the top 3 in rebounding and defense in the CAA, but I don't remember us being in that group back during the 80's or 90's either(save if we were in Charlie's great 98' team). During most of the big wins we have in the last 13 years, we have scored our way to victory. Clearly, we all know that some defense must be played, especially in a 3 games in 3 days scenario. Hofstra proved that theory as much as we have. They play little to no defense at all and took UNCW to overtime 2 years ago in the title game. So, they almost proved you can win with no D(but they didn't finish). If Knight did not need to stay on the floor, I think he could be very effective defensively and Pierce can too. Dixon and Tarpey were the best 2 defenders we had in the last 4-5 years. I think we played enough defense to win in 2014, but the refs failed to call a charge in the critical moment.
I am excited over the effort in the UCF and ODU games, but am still expecting this to be a transition(rebuilding) year. It can get better though. We have long lamented on these boards about missed foul shots and so far that appears to be much, much better this season. Clearly a lot of work and emphasis has occurred on that, so there is hope for defense too. Not sure how we will rebound with our size. I never look forward to the Towson games for that reason.

Surprised to see Prewitt on the positive side of the defensive ledger in 2015. Kudos to Omar. One thing I did know and that he and Daniel are the only 2 Tribe players to reach the semifinals of the CAA tournament every year of their 4 year careers. But, Tot and Burchfield can join that list this year.

(11-27-2017 03:13 PM)billymac Wrote:  The last time that we were really solid defensively was back when we were, because of talent, mostly using a Match-up Zone defense. One of the Schnieder years we were so good at that zone that I used to just chuckle when teams would have no clue where to move the ball with our shifting zone, because no one was open.

I still feel that is our best base defense, because of our lack of lateral quickness, but I know Tony does prefer a solid man-to-man. Maybe a good mix is in order man-to-man, matchup and our 1-2-2/3-2 zone. (Also, in my opinion, the 3-2 was much more effective on Saturday).

The 3-2 zone was for the most part effective against ODU because they don't have any good shooters. Once they started making them though, the 3-2 was practically as useless as the man defense

(11-27-2017 03:40 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Athleticism covers up a lot of mistakes, but doesn't prevent you from playing good team D. It just takes an investment in and commitment to playing defense. I know that is easier said than done. Those better defensive Schneider teams weren't any more athletic than current teams.

Sumner was probably the best athlete I can recall being on a W&M team in a good while, although Knight might have an argument. His length and agility made it tough for opposing offenses to find a rhythm. Kitts was a force down low and did a great job at blocking shots and making layups tough for opponents. That made it easier for the others to defend and allowed the guards (Schneider & McCurdy) to jump passing lanes. It also helped that Schneider always seemed to make those hustle plays that energized the rest of the team, something that has been missing since Tarpey graduated.

Sumner and Tarpey were players that were able to play at the top of the zone to make it work. Bazemore did the same for ODU. Omar and Daniel were good defensive players for different reasons. Daniel was better at denying the ball and preventing shots (I think) and Omar was great at jumping passing lanes, blocking shots, and stealing the ball on double-teams.

I'm not sure that there's a defensive scheme we can play to make up for the ball watching and poor rotations the current team has. Tot played a lot of minutes vs. ODU because he was a better defender and because he guarded 2-4. Rowley missing a game (hopefully not too many more?) might be the best thing that's happened to Tot's playing time going forward.

Random thoughts:

(1). As fundamentally sound as I think Tot is, his footwork on that last play was troubling. He didn’t seem to bend his knees and slide at all. Maybe the moment caught up with him.
(2). Bruce Parkhill’s teams always played good D although they weren’t particularly athletic (no one was back then). I remember the players walking around like old men the first couple weeks of practice from the intense workouts. A defense first team has to be very well-conditioned especially in the thighs.
(3). The point has been made before that coaches don’t have unlimited time for practice and have to pick their poison. Our offense is sophisticated and requires time to learn. Shaver has also stated he wants his players to spend time on their individual skills (“better players make better coaches”). This limits time spent on defense.
(4). I believe Shaver spent his first three years trying to implement the Dean Smith system he learned at UNC and used at H-SC. He just couldn’t get the athletes to make it work here.
(5). I think we had an assistant here who schemed that very complex match-up zone we used for a few years. We moved away from it when he left.
(6). Even more important than rotation and techique is intensity. I do believe Shaver is trying to install it into this team. This team seems to want to improve so there is hope there.
(6). That said, this team is extremely limited athletically in the senior and junior classes. That puts an upper limit on how effective we can be defensively.

I am a Shaver fan and I like the attitude of this team. There is hope that we can improve just enough on defense that on any given night we can shoot our way to victory. My comments on the last defensive possession were not so much criticism as pointing out the rough road ahead.

I love defense and wish we could notch it up enough to get stops when we need it, but not to the expense of being UVA vs Wisconsin butt ugly with no offense...Shoot me now watching that kind of basketball, much less having to play in it.

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