Toledo is not a P6 team but they seem to be always good despite spending a fraction of what we spend. They also continually lose coaches. IMO the Toledo team I am watching tonight would kick our butts all over the field. What is their secret.

1. Stronger football pedigree this millennium. They've firmly established themselves as a "football school".

2. Good coaching hires over the past decade.

3. Little competition for recruits in the MAC. Consistently are among the best recruiters in the conference giving them a talent edge in the league.

HOWEVER...

1. They haven't won a conference championship since 2004. They've never beaten a P5 team in a bowl game in the history of their school, which gives you an idea of the caliber of bowl games they've ever played in.

2. They went 9 years (2008 - 2017) between having players drafted into the NFL.

3. They'll never get a sniff of big time football unless they go undefeated (see NIU in 2012). The MAC is habitually bad and it's only a matter of time before the conference collapses.

Good coaching makes a big difference.

This is not a knock on Fickell (yet) as he must be given time to see what he can do.

Their secret is they also play mostly against teams that spend a fraction of what we spend. The difference is that they've been pulling coaches from the Tim Beckman tree since 2010 and have had continuity from their coaching staff during their period of winning. We've not had that luxury as the coaches we've lost have gone to major P5 programs and we have not retained any assistants, whether by choice or because they were taken.

None of our previous coaches left a system or foundation behind that could be perpetuated (outside of Dantonio).

I've never considered them at the level of Boise State or anything, but a nice solid MAC program.

I think it starts at the top, the program recruits itself as an upper tier MAC program, which allows them to consistently get better recruits than Akron, Miami, OU, BGSU, etc. Who they are competing against.

They can lose a coach and I don't think it's that big of a deal, the players know going in they might not have the same coach for 4 or 5 years, but the program won't fall off when that coach leaves.

Is that true they haven't won MAC title since 2004?!?!?! Wow, I thought they would have won like 4 or 5.

I think for abiut 10 years UC subscribed to the same philosophy, until they went out of the bix and hired Tubberville. People don't realize how badly TT crushed our program. Just an awful hire all the way around.

(11-03-2017 06:18 AM)jarr Wrote:  I've never considered them at the level of Boise State or anything, but a nice solid MAC program.

I think it starts at the top, the program recruits itself as an upper tier MAC program, which allows them to consistently get better recruits than Akron, Miami, OU, BGSU, etc. Who they are competing against.

They can lose a coach and I don't think it's that big of a deal, the players know going in they might not have the same coach for 4 or 5 years, but the program won't fall off when that coach leaves.

Is that true they haven't won MAC title since 2004?!?!?! Wow, I thought they would have won like 4 or 5.

I think for abiut 10 years UC subscribed to the same philosophy, until they went out of the bix and hired Tubberville. People don't realize how badly TT crushed our program. Just an awful hire all the way around.

This. If Babcock didn't hire TT we would basically have one of the best resumes in the country (including P5 schools) from 2000-present. People forget we had winning records and went to bowls in 2000-2002 and 2004 (we also shared the C-USA championship with TCU in 2002). The 2004 team 10 guys go to the NFL.

Level of competition is a big thing. They are not striving to beat the P5, they are striving to beat the MAC and they recruit that way. They consistently win and that helps sway MAC level recruits and lower tiered P5 recruits that see the ability to play early and often at a winning program.

We did that with a higher level of recruit until TT's vacation. I do think the AAC gets a bum wrap and the difference between the AAC and the MAC is huge!

They also have had some great coaches and made great hires (Though some moved on quickly). But I believe that the advantage they have built in recruiting makes a huge difference in conference play. They do have some decent OOC wins over the years. But the talent level between them and their fellow MAC schools I think makes the big difference.

(11-03-2017 08:13 AM)BigDawg Wrote:  Level of competition is a big thing. They are not striving to beat the P5, they are striving to beat the MAC and they recruit that way. They consistently win and that helps sway MAC level recruits and lower tiered P5 recruits that see the ability to play early and often at a winning program.

We did that with a higher level of recruit until TT's vacation. I do think the AAC gets a bum wrap and the difference between the AAC and the MAC is huge!

They also have had some great coaches and made great hires (Though some moved on quickly). But I believe that the advantage they have built in recruiting makes a huge difference in conference play. They do have some decent OOC wins over the years. But the talent level between them and their fellow MAC schools I think makes the big difference.

Good summary; I agree. Overall, the American has done about as good a job as we might have hoped for with some big time bowl wins and three teams ranked for at least the second time in the AAC's short history. It's just a shame that UC had to take a dive during this period.

I do wonder about the long-term viability of the MAC given their lack of exposure and resources. The G5 herd will get thinned in the next decade I'm sure.

I know it's popular with some to bash Butch but I looked at highlights this week from Tuberville's blowout win over Rutgers (his first season I believe) and there was some talent on the field along with great play calling and execution. Clearly, no quality recruiting was going on behind the scenes then or in Tub's ensuing years, hence today's mess. I don't expect Fickell to lose many recruiting battles with Toledo or any MAC school.

(11-03-2017 06:08 AM)BrooklynRocket Wrote:  1. Stronger football pedigree this millennium. They've firmly established themselves as a "football school".

2. Good coaching hires over the past decade.

3. Little competition for recruits in the MAC. Consistently are among the best recruiters in the conference giving them a talent edge in the league.

HOWEVER...

1. They haven't won a conference championship since 2004. They've never beaten a P5 team in a bowl game in the history of their school, which gives you an idea of the caliber of bowl games they've ever played in.

2. They went 9 years (2008 - 2017) between having players drafted into the NFL.

3. They'll never get a sniff of big time football unless they go undefeated (see NIU in 2012). The MAC is habitually bad and it's only a matter of time before the conference collapses.

Not the main reason they're good but it doesn't hurt that for a long time they were one of the few decent football programs in the region that accepted non-qualifiers.

Amstutz Toledo Tom had 3 consecutive losing seasons, 2006-2008. Beckman was 5-7 and 8-5.
From 2012-2016 5 consecutive winning seasons. Saban/Pinkel 1990-2000 very consistent.

(11-03-2017 10:53 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Amstutz Toledo Tom had 3 consecutive losing seasons, 2006-2008. Beckman was 5-7 and 8-5.
From 2012-2016 5 consecutive winning seasons. Saban/Pinkel 1990-2000 very consistent.

Yep...outside of Beckman, that team has been 'solid' for the better part of thirty years. Hell, even with how the end of his tenure went. arguably the best team they've had and the biggest win in their history (take your pick between their upset of #10 Pitt at home or being the only MAC team to beat Michigan...and doing it AT the Big House) were overseen by Amstutz, who is one of the best men I've ever met.

I've spent many a night in the Glass Bowl growing up, and Toledo signs my paychecks now, so I can't really trash them if I wanted to...but they're definitely a shining example of how to deliver a quality product in a lower level conference every stinking year. Mike O'Brien is a phenomenal AD who has made great hires consistently throughout his tenure here on the football side, and he even somehow convinces schools like Purdue, Pitt, Miami (FL), BYU, etc. to come to Toledo every other year or so. They do it right up here, and a lot of that has to do with the leadership from the top...not to mention, they were one of the first schools to really look at premium seating to drive revenue. The luxury seating tower they built in the early 90's is still one of the largest press box/suite complexes in the country and paid itself off in less than 10 years. they also consistently have good attendance because the city is always and fully behind them. I think they average around 21,000/season in a 25,000 seat stadium in the MAC, which is crazy to even consider.

Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

(11-03-2017 11:20 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-03-2017 10:53 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Amstutz Toledo Tom had 3 consecutive losing seasons, 2006-2008. Beckman was 5-7 and 8-5.
From 2012-2016 5 consecutive winning seasons. Saban/Pinkel 1990-2000 very consistent.

Yep...outside of Beckman, that team has been 'solid' for the better part of thirty years. Hell, even with how the end of his tenure went. arguably the best team they've had and the biggest win in their history (take your pick between their upset of #10 Pitt at home or being the only MAC team to beat Michigan...and doing it AT the Big House) were overseen by Amstutz, who is one of the best men I've ever met.

I've spent many a night in the Glass Bowl growing up, and Toledo signs my paychecks now, so I can't really trash them if I wanted to...but they're definitely a shining example of how to deliver a quality product in a lower level conference every stinking year. Mike O'Brien is a phenomenal AD who has made great hires consistently throughout his tenure here on the football side, and he even somehow convinces schools like Purdue, Pitt, Miami (FL), BYU, etc. to come to Toledo every other year or so. They do it right up here, and a lot of that has to do with the leadership from the top...not to mention, they were one of the first schools to really look at premium seating to drive revenue. The luxury seating tower they built in the early 90's is still one of the largest press box/suite complexes in the country and paid itself off in less than 10 years. they also consistently have good attendance because the city is always and fully behind them. I think they average around 21,000/season in a 25,000 seat stadium in the MAC, which is crazy to even consider.

Could it also be that they play a schedule commensurate with their strength?

Great run of head coaches coupled with a university and community supportive and passionate about football. A good coach finds success no matter what level he is at.

(11-03-2017 01:50 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

1921 UC 20 UT 0
1049 UC 33 UT 13
1953 UC 47 UT 7
1993 UC 31 UT 24
1995 UT 45 UC 31
2001 UT 23 UC 16
2012 UT 29 UC 23
2014 UC 58 UT 34

(11-04-2017 08:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(11-03-2017 01:50 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

1921 UC 20 UT 0
1049 UC 33 UT 13
1953 UC 47 UT 7
1993 UC 31 UT 24
1995 UT 45 UC 31
2001 UT 23 UC 16
2012 UT 29 UC 23
2014 UC 58 UT 34

A very old series indeed...not much game footage from the game from 1049.

(11-04-2017 08:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(11-03-2017 01:50 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

1921 UC 20 UT 0
1049 UC 33 UT 13
1953 UC 47 UT 7
1993 UC 31 UT 24
1995 UT 45 UC 31
2001 UT 23 UC 16
2012 UT 29 UC 23
2014 UC 58 UT 34

Can we not mention that 2012 game?

(11-04-2017 11:17 AM)cpawfan Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 08:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(11-03-2017 01:50 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

1921 UC 20 UT 0
1049 UC 33 UT 13
1953 UC 47 UT 7
1993 UC 31 UT 24
1995 UT 45 UC 31
2001 UT 23 UC 16
2012 UT 29 UC 23
2014 UC 58 UT 34

Can we not mention that 2012 game?

Should be 6-2 ... Lyle botched that 2012 game.

(11-04-2017 11:57 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:17 AM)cpawfan Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 08:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(11-03-2017 01:50 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

1921 UC 20 UT 0
1049 UC 33 UT 13
1953 UC 47 UT 7
1993 UC 31 UT 24
1995 UT 45 UC 31
2001 UT 23 UC 16
2012 UT 29 UC 23
2014 UC 58 UT 34

Can we not mention that 2012 game?

Should be 6-2 ... Lyle botched that 2012 game.

Yes he did. If he plays Kay in the Toledo and Louisville games, we have a very special season.

(11-04-2017 12:01 PM)rosewater Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:57 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:17 AM)cpawfan Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 08:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(11-03-2017 01:50 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Just for the record UC leads series 5-3

Just sayin!

1921 UC 20 UT 0
1049 UC 33 UT 13
1953 UC 47 UT 7
1993 UC 31 UT 24
1995 UT 45 UC 31
2001 UT 23 UC 16
2012 UT 29 UC 23
2014 UC 58 UT 34

Can we not mention that 2012 game?

Should be 6-2 ... Lyle botched that 2012 game.

Yes he did. If he plays Kay in the Toledo and Louisville games, we have a very special season.

Wasn't that the year he called the TO when Loserville missed the FG?