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Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-13-2017 07:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(11-13-2017 07:28 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  Threadjack, but on another forum someone posted that the Big South is planning on adding two new members. One, supposedly, plays football; the other is apparently being called a first for Division I. That's all I can say at this point, but the news should break this week.

What would that first possibly be? An all female D1 school like Converse College?

That could be. I didn't realize there were even any all-women's colleges at the D2 level, but Converse is and it's in the footprint.
11-13-2017 10:28 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
As we await the inevitable Presbyterian College announcement (probably right before the Thanksgiving break, since Presbyterian is playing their lats game Saturday) that they are dropping scholarships for football, I found perhaps the best single analysis of the true costs of Football and Athletics done by none other than two Presbyterian College Professors:

https://fee.org/articles/hiding-the-high...ge-sports/

They talked about how a school with just 700 students (Presbyterian has fewer than 1,100 undergraduates) was making a sensible move to D-III because they were too small for D-II. Hum. Anyway great analysis of the hidden costs. Unfortunately the paper is no longer up on Presbyterian's website. So I fired off an email to both men to see if one of them would send me a copy. But the article covers many of the basic points. It's from only a couple years ago.
11-14-2017 04:05 AM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #73
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-13-2017 07:28 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  Threadjack, but on another forum someone posted that the Big South is planning on adding two new members. One, supposedly, plays football; the other is apparently being called a first for Division I. That's all I can say at this point, but the news should break this week.

Wingate seems a likely school, though they probably have to go non-scholarship football. They have M&W lacrosse and a host of other sports. More than twice as big as Presbyterian and close to Charlotte. West Georgia might get a football place, but it's more likely conference is the Atlantic Sun.

So Converse would only have to sponsor eight sports? Right now they exceed that.
11-14-2017 07:41 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
With Campbell and Presbyterian essentially swapping places, is there anyway the big south can find another 6th member?
11-14-2017 07:45 AM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #75
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-14-2017 07:45 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Campbell and Presbyterian essentially swapping places, is there anyway the big south can find another 6th member?

If Wingate joins the Big South, it can sponsor a non-scholarship league too.

Pioneer League South
Davidson
Stetson
Jacksonville
Wingate
Presbyterian
either Marist or Moorhead St

If the A Sun takes in W Georgia, who has been talking DI for a decade, the scholarship Big South becomes:
Chuck South
Campbell
Monmouth
Kennesaw St
N Alabama
W Georgia

At that point in time, the scholarship league should be sponsored by the Atlantic Sun and the Big South sponsors non-scholarship.
11-14-2017 08:00 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-11-2017 11:41 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  It’s too bad America East coming couldn’t add Rhode Island and Monmouth for football only. With four of their full members playing CAA Football now, America East could hijack the Big South’s football conference with a purely northeastern league.

The CAA would be down to seven (five of their own plus Richmond and Villanova). They would probably pick up two more football affiliates to get to nine members.

(11-11-2017 02:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(11-11-2017 11:41 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  It’s too bad America East coming couldn’t add Rhode Island and Monmouth for football only. With four of their full members playing CAA Football now, America East could hijack the Big South’s football conference with a purely northeastern league.

The CAA would be down to seven (five of their own plus Richmond and Villanova). They would probably pick up two more football affiliates to get to nine members.

CAA currently only has 5 of their own in the football league 12 member football league--Delaware, Towson, JMU, Wm & Mary, and Elon.

What ultimately prevents America East football from happening is Hartford. they'd never let Central Connecticut St in and I think that's a critical school to switch over if America East is going to have football without flipping a CAA full member to their side.

Truthfully, the 4 America East football schools should have insisted on a football playing replacement for Boston U but instead they got saddled with UMass-Lowell.

(11-11-2017 02:55 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  ^^^Don't discount Vermont and Binghamton not wanting football, or CCSU just because, too.

Consider who's in AmEast...three NE flagships and three of the four SUNY flagships...Hartford might be a private school, but that doesn't make them the only snob in the conference.

If needing football mattered, Robert Morris has been fishing for a new home...

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would anyone involved want a break away America East football conference? If I'm an AE school that's really committed to my football program I want to maintain my connection to the mid-Atlantic states for recruiting purposes, given the way the future of football looks. If I'm an AE school that isn't particularly committed to my football program then a 6-team AE football conference makes it way more problematic politically if at some point you looked to move football to non-scholarship/Pioneer or drop it entirely. I just don't see whose purpose it serves. It doesn't really matter whose name is on the door, a mishmash CAAF made up of schools from various conferences is the best available solution, much like the MVFC further out west.
11-14-2017 11:40 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-14-2017 11:40 AM)Bogg Wrote:  Maybe I'm missing something, but why would anyone involved want a break away America East football conference?

I agree, considering, at this point, CAAF is among FCS' best, and whatever parts you assemble for an AmEast version of it, I can't imagine quality matching CAAF, let alone exceeding it.

That being said, though, this is a good piece to frame what happened up there back in the late 90's ahead of Delaware, Towson, Hofstra, and Drexel all jumping off. Boston was a known pain in the *** in AmEast, but, they had help from Vermont and Hartford over expansion and football.

There were the doomsday scenario whispers were there some FBS and Patriot League peel-off's within both CAA and CAAF that keep the AmEast conversations around. But, considering those speculated to going other places include current AmEast members (UNH was approached by Patriot, Stony Brook athletic plan for FBS viability), it doesn't make much sense. There would likely be more backfilling by CAA at AmEast's expense were anything to really happen to CAA/F (Albany).
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2017 02:54 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
11-14-2017 02:53 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
What I am seeing is that there seems to be a rift between the football schools and non-football schools. It happened in the Big East/AAc split. There are signs of trouble with the CAA as schools all have been looking elsewhere.

Villanova Patriot
William and Mary Patriot
James Madison FBS
Delaware FBS
Richmond Patriot
Stony Brook FBS
Towson FBS

CAA already lost Old Dominion
Charlotte
Georgia State
UMass.

Hofstra and Northeaster dropped football.

VCU and George Mason leaving.

All of this happened within the last 10 years or so.

I am also seeing the same thing happening to the MVC right now between the football and non-football schools, or mainly between the private and public schools.

I do think that the big expansion would be non football schools could join together and football schools could be together as an all sports conference. That may mean playing musical chairs among the FCS schools.

The Big South schools on the other hand all are looking for something better, and would not be stable for a long time.
11-14-2017 04:52 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
(11-14-2017 02:53 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(11-14-2017 11:40 AM)Bogg Wrote:  Maybe I'm missing something, but why would anyone involved want a break away America East football conference?

I agree, considering, at this point, CAAF is among FCS' best, and whatever parts you assemble for an AmEast version of it, I can't imagine quality matching CAAF, let alone exceeding it.

That being said, though, this is a good piece to frame what happened up there back in the late 90's ahead of Delaware, Towson, Hofstra, and Drexel all jumping off. Boston was a known pain in the *** in AmEast, but, they had help from Vermont and Hartford over expansion and football.

There were the doomsday scenario whispers were there some FBS and Patriot League peel-off's within both CAA and CAAF that keep the AmEast conversations around. But, considering those speculated to going other places include current AmEast members (UNH was approached by Patriot, Stony Brook athletic plan for FBS viability), it doesn't make much sense. There would likely be more backfilling by CAA at AmEast's expense were anything to really happen to CAA/F (Albany).

Yea, I just don't see what the point would be outside of people who really want to see a particular name on the wall. It's not even like the AE schools are in a situation where they're affiliates who want a conference where they have a full voice - CAAF is a standalone single-sport conference where everyone's a full member. Why blow apart a conference you're a full member of to start a new, almost-certainly-inferior conference (technically a new sport under an existing conference, yes) that actually is less stable due to the lower membership number?
11-14-2017 04:56 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Presbyterian Football in trouble? (may drop, go Pioneer
I would like to see the CAA non-football schools move over to the AE and the football schools move over as full members in the CAA. CAA could lose the Richmond/Villanova/William & Mary to the Patriot, and the CAA could then petition as a whole to become an FBS conference. They could easily go to 12 by getting UMass., Eastern Kentucky, Youngstown State and maybe Liberty as full members.
11-14-2017 05:01 PM
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