(10-25-2017 09:19 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Except you see the SEC has had more than just Kentucky. And it has been pretty much Nova and everyone else in the Big East....

Kentucky last 4 years 59-13 in SEC play
Villanova last 4 years 63-9 in BE play

Florida made F4 in 2014, Tennessee S16 in 2014
Texas A&M made S16 in 2016
Florida made E8 in 2017, S Carolina F4 in 2017
So 2 other final 4's, an elite 8, and 2 S16.

now look at BE outside of Nova....
Xavier made S16 in 2015
Butler made S16 in 2017, Xavier E8
So 1 other elite 8 and 2 other S16's.

So which conference is 1 top team and then everyone else?

Big East has by far the worst arrangement in terms of a conference challenge that has one. Gavitt games are skewed so far towards B10's favor it's not funny. I mean, Michigan St hasn't even participated once yet. So I don't know that I would say AD's exactly recognize the Big East as a power conference. Definitely not on the same level as the P5.

But they have one with the B1G the most powerful conference in college sports so that tells you all you need to know.

Whats clear is you really really HATE the Big East.

(10-25-2017 09:25 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 09:19 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Except you see the SEC has had more than just Kentucky. And it has been pretty much Nova and everyone else in the Big East....

Kentucky last 4 years 59-13 in SEC play
Villanova last 4 years 63-9 in BE play

Florida made F4 in 2014, Tennessee S16 in 2014
Texas A&M made S16 in 2016
Florida made E8 in 2017, S Carolina F4 in 2017
So 2 other final 4's, an elite 8, and 2 S16.

now look at BE outside of Nova....
Xavier made S16 in 2015
Butler made S16 in 2017, Xavier E8
So 1 other elite 8 and 2 other S16's.

So which conference is 1 top team and then everyone else?

Big East has by far the worst arrangement in terms of a conference challenge that has one. Gavitt games are skewed so far towards B10's favor it's not funny. I mean, Michigan St hasn't even participated once yet. So I don't know that I would say AD's exactly recognize the Big East as a power conference. Definitely not on the same level as the P5.

But they have one with the B1G the most powerful conference in college sports so that tells you all you need to know.

Whats clear is you really really HATE the Big East.

And they're treated like 2nd class citizens in that challenge.... There's been 4 teams after this year who haven't been in the challenge 2x. Michigan St at 0. Michigan, Ohio St are 2 of the 1's with 1(Penn St is the other). It's hardly an equal challenge.

And no comment on Villanova vs Kentucky. Fascinating.

(10-25-2017 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 09:25 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 09:19 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Except you see the SEC has had more than just Kentucky. And it has been pretty much Nova and everyone else in the Big East....

Kentucky last 4 years 59-13 in SEC play
Villanova last 4 years 63-9 in BE play

Florida made F4 in 2014, Tennessee S16 in 2014
Texas A&M made S16 in 2016
Florida made E8 in 2017, S Carolina F4 in 2017
So 2 other final 4's, an elite 8, and 2 S16.

now look at BE outside of Nova....
Xavier made S16 in 2015
Butler made S16 in 2017, Xavier E8
So 1 other elite 8 and 2 other S16's.

So which conference is 1 top team and then everyone else?

Big East has by far the worst arrangement in terms of a conference challenge that has one. Gavitt games are skewed so far towards B10's favor it's not funny. I mean, Michigan St hasn't even participated once yet. So I don't know that I would say AD's exactly recognize the Big East as a power conference. Definitely not on the same level as the P5.

But they have one with the B1G the most powerful conference in college sports so that tells you all you need to know.

Whats clear is you really really HATE the Big East.

And they're treated like 2nd class citizens in that challenge.... There's been 4 teams after this year who haven't been in the challenge 2x. Michigan St at 0. Michigan, Ohio St are 2 of the 1's with 1(Penn St is the other). It's hardly an equal challenge.

And no comment on Villanova vs Kentucky. Fascinating.

No comment on your hate of the Big East and their fans. Fascinating.

Just to recap:

In a thread started by Stever criticizing the Big East's decision to not only continue with the round-robin format, but criticize Big East's fans support of it, we have been led to the following counterpoints by Stever:

1. The Big East having multiple bids per year is actually not a good thing, because the seedings are not high.

2. The Big East has actually been, in fact, lucky - not good - because every break has gone their way.

3. The Big East is not an "elite" or "power" conference, because a conference's postseason success is what truly defines itself.

On page 3 of a thread he started does he propose his "solution" - expansion; however, he does not want to suggest any teams - just more critiques - which lead to:

4. Recruiting in the Big East is not as strong as other top conferences.

5. KenPom's ranking of the Big East as #2 this year should not be taken into account because it is a preseason.

6. The Big East has a terrible conference challenge with the B1G.

In summary, no matter what counterpoint is made to Stever's responses, the goal posts are shifted into an argument as to why the Big East should not be considered an "elite", "power" or "top" conference, and any perceptions or arguments against that are just wrong. If you add into the account of Stever's description of other BE fans on this site (and another), you can only come up with one clear conclusion: there is a clear preconceived dislike and contempt by him for the league and its fans, and any argument he does make does feeds into his animosity towards the Big East.

I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

Stever, you’re always critical of the Big East’s exclusive contract with FOX, its NCAA tournament success, recruiting, the Big East marathon to begin the season, the Gavitt series with the BIG Ten, the round robin format, lack of expansion, Big East fans in general. What’s your point with all this?

(10-25-2017 10:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Just to recap:

In a thread started by Stever criticizing the Big East's decision to not only continue with the round-robin format, but criticize Big East's fans support of it, we have been led to the following counterpoints by Stever:

1. The Big East having multiple bids per year is actually not a good thing, because the seedings are not high.

2. The Big East has actually been, in fact, lucky - not good - because every break has gone their way.

3. The Big East is not an "elite" or "power" conference, because a conference's postseason success is what truly defines itself.

On page 3 of a thread he started does he propose his "solution" - expansion; however, he does not want to suggest any teams - just more critiques - which lead to:

4. Recruiting in the Big East is not as strong as other top conferences.

5. KenPom's ranking of the Big East as #2 this year should not be taken into account because it is a preseason.

6. The Big East has a terrible conference challenge with the B1G.

In summary, no matter what counterpoint is made to Stever's responses, the goal posts are shifted into an argument as to why the Big East should not be considered an "elite", "power" or "top" conference, and any perceptions or arguments against that are just wrong. If you add into the account of Stever's description of other BE fans on this site (and another), you can only come up with one clear conclusion: there is a clear preconceived dislike and contempt by him for the league and its fans, and any argument he does make does feeds into his animosity towards the Big East.

So how should 1 take Marquette last year when outside the 4 games with Xavier and Creighton(all played after the injuries) Marquette was 15-12. How is it NOT luck that Marquette got to play all 4 of those games after the injuries. They lose even 1 of those 4 games and they are in Dayton. 2 games and they are out of the tournament. Luck is a part of things. In the 4 years- Big East has gotten a lot of lucky breaks.

Like it or not, the postseason defines the season. 2016 the Big 12 was the clear cut #1 conference. Got 7 teams in the tourney- all with top 8 seeds. ACC was far behind them at #2. Only got 7 teams in the tourney. But going back, who is viewed as having the better season? Like it or not, but to almost everyone, the ACC is- and it's not even remotely close.

Compared to all of the other P5 conferences- the Big East has done worse than any of them.

I just don't think the Big East is as good as Big East fans want to think. I'm a casual fan- don't really have 1 team. But Big East fans want to make you think that they are on par with the rest of the p5. And that's a joke.

I do think expansion would help the Big East out some. Get some better seeds in the tourney which would help them in the tourney.

(10-25-2017 10:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Just to recap:

In a thread started by Stever criticizing the Big East's decision to not only continue with the round-robin format, but criticize Big East's fans support of it, we have been led to the following counterpoints by Stever:

1. The Big East having multiple bids per year is actually not a good thing, because the seedings are not high.

2. The Big East has actually been, in fact, lucky - not good - because every break has gone their way.

3. The Big East is not an "elite" or "power" conference, because a conference's postseason success is what truly defines itself.

On page 3 of a thread he started does he propose his "solution" - expansion; however, he does not want to suggest any teams - just more critiques - which lead to:

4. Recruiting in the Big East is not as strong as other top conferences.

5. KenPom's ranking of the Big East as #2 this year should not be taken into account because it is a preseason.

6. The Big East has a terrible conference challenge with the B1G.

In summary, no matter what counterpoint is made to Stever's responses, the goal posts are shifted into an argument as to why the Big East should not be considered an "elite", "power" or "top" conference, and any perceptions or arguments against that are just wrong. If you add into the account of Stever's description of other BE fans on this site (and another), you can only come up with one clear conclusion: there is a clear preconceived dislike and contempt by him for the league and its fans, and any argument he does make does feeds into his animosity towards the Big East.

So how should 1 take Marquette last year when outside the 4 games with Xavier and Creighton(all played after the injuries) Marquette was 15-12. How is it NOT luck that Marquette got to play all 4 of those games after the injuries. They lose even 1 of those 4 games and they are in Dayton. 2 games and they are out of the tournament. Luck is a part of things. In the 4 years- Big East has gotten a lot of lucky breaks.

Like it or not, the postseason defines the season. 2016 the Big 12 was the clear cut #1 conference. Got 7 teams in the tourney- all with top 8 seeds. ACC was far behind them at #2. Only got 7 teams in the tourney. But going back, who is viewed as having the better season? Like it or not, but to almost everyone, the ACC is- and it's not even remotely close.

Compared to all of the other P5 conferences- the Big East has done worse than any of them.

I just don't think the Big East is as good as Big East fans want to think. I'm a casual fan- don't really have 1 team. But Big East fans want to make you think that they are on par with the rest of the p5. And that's a joke.

I do think expansion would help the Big East out some. Get some better seeds in the tourney which would help them in the tourney.

You clearly want some type of reason - other than reality - to explain the success of the Big East. You are fixated on this notion of luck being the determining factor of teams getting in. What has happened on the court, happened. Injuries are part of basketball. Marquette defeated #1 Villanova and #7 Creighton last year, in addition to winning 17 additional games. If you cannot come to terms with how or why the Big East is considered an elite basketball conference, I don't know what to tell you. Honestly, at this point, your criticisms only come off as fixated obsessions.

Groundhog Day meets Baghdad Bob meets the Energizer Bunny.

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

You don't hate the Big East, but then always argue against fans or supporters of the conference that speak up for the league, and then use selected figures to support your arguments? You then go to other forums and name call other posters for making cases against your arguments (including making an entire thread entitled Stever's Thoughts in the Big East forum, which is now inactive here)? Right. No hatred whatsoever right here.

(10-25-2017 10:32 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:22 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Just to recap:

In a thread started by Stever criticizing the Big East's decision to not only continue with the round-robin format, but criticize Big East's fans support of it, we have been led to the following counterpoints by Stever:

1. The Big East having multiple bids per year is actually not a good thing, because the seedings are not high.

2. The Big East has actually been, in fact, lucky - not good - because every break has gone their way.

3. The Big East is not an "elite" or "power" conference, because a conference's postseason success is what truly defines itself.

On page 3 of a thread he started does he propose his "solution" - expansion; however, he does not want to suggest any teams - just more critiques - which lead to:

4. Recruiting in the Big East is not as strong as other top conferences.

5. KenPom's ranking of the Big East as #2 this year should not be taken into account because it is a preseason.

6. The Big East has a terrible conference challenge with the B1G.

In summary, no matter what counterpoint is made to Stever's responses, the goal posts are shifted into an argument as to why the Big East should not be considered an "elite", "power" or "top" conference, and any perceptions or arguments against that are just wrong. If you add into the account of Stever's description of other BE fans on this site (and another), you can only come up with one clear conclusion: there is a clear preconceived dislike and contempt by him for the league and its fans, and any argument he does make does feeds into his animosity towards the Big East.

So how should 1 take Marquette last year when outside the 4 games with Xavier and Creighton(all played after the injuries) Marquette was 15-12. How is it NOT luck that Marquette got to play all 4 of those games after the injuries. They lose even 1 of those 4 games and they are in Dayton. 2 games and they are out of the tournament. Luck is a part of things. In the 4 years- Big East has gotten a lot of lucky breaks.

Like it or not, the postseason defines the season. 2016 the Big 12 was the clear cut #1 conference. Got 7 teams in the tourney- all with top 8 seeds. ACC was far behind them at #2. Only got 7 teams in the tourney. But going back, who is viewed as having the better season? Like it or not, but to almost everyone, the ACC is- and it's not even remotely close.

Compared to all of the other P5 conferences- the Big East has done worse than any of them.

I just don't think the Big East is as good as Big East fans want to think. I'm a casual fan- don't really have 1 team. But Big East fans want to make you think that they are on par with the rest of the p5. And that's a joke.

I do think expansion would help the Big East out some. Get some better seeds in the tourney which would help them in the tourney.

You clearly want some type of reason - other than reality - to explain the success of the Big East. You are fixated on this notion of luck being the determining factor of teams getting in. What has happened on the court, happened. Injuries are part of basketball. Marquette defeated #1 Villanova and #7 Creighton last year, in addition to winning 17 additional games. If you cannot come to terms with how or why the Big East is considered an elite basketball conference, I don't know what to tell you. Honestly, at this point, your criticisms only come off as fixated obsessions.

The win over #7 Creighton was AFTER the injury- the first game after the injury mind you. There was a reason even after those great wins- Marquette was still with those great wins you said still the #39 overall seed and the 7 team in the tourney. To act like Marquette wasn't lucky in that they got all 4 games with those 2 teams with them shorthanded is a joke. Creighton after the injury was only 7-9. Before they were 18-1. Yeah, that's the same team.

And there you go throwing around the darndest word in sports elite. The Big East is not on the same level as the Big 12, ACC, or Big Ten. They aren't.

(10-25-2017 10:38 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

You don't hate the Big East, but then always argue against fans or supporters of the conference that speak up for the league, and then use selected figures to support your arguments? You then go to other forums and name call other posters for making cases against your arguments (including making an entire thread entitled Stever's Thoughts in the Big East forum, which is now inactive here)? Right. No hatred whatsoever right here.

The problem with the fans/supporters of the Big East is they have nothing but rose colored blinders. You bring up any point comparing them to other P5 conferences and the patent response is always- well AAC sucks.

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

Fun with hypotheticals...

Mo Waton got hurt, otherwise Creighton would've made the Final Four easily.

Edmund Sumner got hurt, and Myles Davis couldn't play, otherwise Xavier would have won the National Championship. Xavier made the Elite-8 despite injuries, blew out ACC-3 Florida State by 25 in a dunkfest, then Arizona in a virtual road game... again, without Sumner nor Myles Davis... XU had a freshman running the point.

Injuries work in both directions.

Marquette played a road game in Round One v the Gamecocks, and they were tied with 8 minutes left... Duke lost 2 days later in same road venue.

2015 Providence lost NCAA road game vs Dayton. 2016 Providence lost another NCAA road game, vs North Carolina. Road games! Put both games in Worcester or Boston and we make 2 Sweet Sixteens.

And if Napoleon had a B-1 bomber he'd have won at Waterloo.

(10-25-2017 10:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:38 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

You don't hate the Big East, but then always argue against fans or supporters of the conference that speak up for the league, and then use selected figures to support your arguments? You then go to other forums and name call other posters for making cases against your arguments (including making an entire thread entitled Stever's Thoughts in the Big East forum, which is now inactive here)? Right. No hatred whatsoever right here.

The problem with the fans/supporters of the Big East is they have nothing but rose colored blinders. You bring up any point comparing them to other P5 conferences and the patent response is always- well AAC sucks.

I haven't seen anyone here but you bring up the AAC. You brought up lots of points comparing them to the P5 and not one has mentioned the AAC in any capacity.

(10-25-2017 10:55 AM)billyjack Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

Fun with hypotheticals...

Mo Waton got hurt, otherwise Creighton would've made the Final Four easily.

Edmund Sumner got hurt, and Myles Davis couldn't play, otherwise Xavier would have won the National Championship. Xavier made the Elite-8 despite injuries, blew out ACC-3 Florida State by 25 in a dunkfest, then Arizona in a virtual road game... again, without Sumner nor Myles Davis... XU had a freshman running the point.

Injuries work in both directions.

Marquette played a road game in Round One v the Gamecocks, and they were tied with 8 minutes left... Duke lost 2 days later in same road venue.

2015 Providence lost NCAA road game vs Dayton. 2016 Providence lost another NCAA road game, vs North Carolina. Road games! Put both games in Worcester or Boston and we make 2 Sweet Sixteens.

And if Napoleon had a B-1 bomber he'd have won at Waterloo.

Creighton when Watson got hurt was only #9 in the RPI. So hardly a #1 seed. They were like a 2-3 seed in most bracketology then.
When Sumner got hurt, they were a 5 or 6 seed. And Myles Davis got thrown off the team.

Far more of a lock that Providence and Marquette don't make the tourney w/o the injuries than Creighton and Xavier make the final 4. You say well Xavier makes the final 8 without Sumner. True. But it's a totally different run. Get a 1 seed in the RSF(after seeing a 4/5 seed in the rd of 32.

As far as your points on road games. 2015 I agree with you on that being unfair for Providence. NO 11 seed should get a home court advantage.

2017- Marquette/South Carolina- I don't think tht was too fair either...

But the one you aren't going to convince me of was UNC/Providence in 2016. UNC got to play in Raleigh because they were a 1 seed. Providence wants to have that game in Worcester or Boston- win some games in the regular season.

(10-25-2017 11:01 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:38 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

You don't hate the Big East, but then always argue against fans or supporters of the conference that speak up for the league, and then use selected figures to support your arguments? You then go to other forums and name call other posters for making cases against your arguments (including making an entire thread entitled Stever's Thoughts in the Big East forum, which is now inactive here)? Right. No hatred whatsoever right here.

The problem with the fans/supporters of the Big East is they have nothing but rose colored blinders. You bring up any point comparing them to other P5 conferences and the patent response is always- well AAC sucks.

I haven't seen anyone here but you bring up the AAC. You brought up lots of points comparing them to the P5 and not one has mentioned the AAC in any capacity.

on the other board they're brought up extensively.

(10-25-2017 11:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 11:01 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:50 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:38 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-25-2017 10:12 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't hate the Big East. I just do not think they're on the same level as the other P5 conferences. Not as a complete package. I think they got some extra bids in the tournament due to the injuries last year. As a league, they haven't performed in the tournament as well as the other P5 conferences- 3 2nd weekend trips in 4 years is not good. I don't think the league recruits as well as the other P5 conferences. People want to use the regular season as the only barometer and that's a joke.

You don't hate the Big East, but then always argue against fans or supporters of the conference that speak up for the league, and then use selected figures to support your arguments? You then go to other forums and name call other posters for making cases against your arguments (including making an entire thread entitled Stever's Thoughts in the Big East forum, which is now inactive here)? Right. No hatred whatsoever right here.

The problem with the fans/supporters of the Big East is they have nothing but rose colored blinders. You bring up any point comparing them to other P5 conferences and the patent response is always- well AAC sucks.

I haven't seen anyone here but you bring up the AAC. You brought up lots of points comparing them to the P5 and not one has mentioned the AAC in any capacity.

on the other board they're brought up extensively.

But they aren't brought up here so unless I see it I can't actually believe it. I just see you attacking a power basketball conference and trying to convince others that the Big East isn't in fact a power conference.

I don't think Big East is in the same breath as the ACC, Big 12, or Big Ten. Much more comparable with the SEC and Pac 12.

(10-25-2017 11:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't think Big East is in the same breath as the ACC, Big 12, or Big Ten. Much more comparable with the SEC and Pac 12.

So a power conference.

(10-25-2017 11:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I don't think Big East is in the same breath as the ACC, Big 12, or Big Ten. Much more comparable with the SEC and Pac 12.

That has been clearly established - repeatedly. National perception thinks otherwise.