A couple of other things. The right has spent the last 30 years cutting govt. to the bone and then with the other hand points a finger and says.... look I told you it doesn't work. Take for instance weather models. The Europeans weather model kicks absolute ass compared to our weather models. They absolutely nailed the hurricane tracks in September. Today a major Physics announcement was made in Europe on gravitational waves. These are the things we used to do. Why are the Europeans jumping in front of us. Because we have convinced people that we need to give tax breaks to "job creators" at the expense of govt. I can show you by cutting govt. we are falling behind. Can anybody show me where tax cuts have led to job creations?

You guys create these scenarios in your minds and they are unhinged from reality.

1. Obamacare was not imploding. Trump's sabotage has that potential.

2. People who fund govts actually have better govts. Who would have thunk that?

3. The tax cuts are a gigantic give away to the Kochs and their ilk and will explode the budget. This from the "budget hawk" caucus.

If Obamacare was working, why the illegal payments?

(10-16-2017 12:36 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  1. Obamacare was not imploding. Trump's sabotage has that potential.

Please explain what you mean by "Trump's sabotage."

Ha, nice try. There's no sabotage. CSR payments were never appropriated, so actually following the law and giving people what the alt-left dems voted for, i.e. *pure* obamacare is the right thing to do. No more robbing Peter to pay Paul.

obamacare is imploding, that's a fact. PPOs no longer even exist. 1/2 the country only has one "choice", and depending on the area, it's either some garbage HMO or community health plan that no one accepts.

(10-16-2017 12:36 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A couple of other things. The right has spent the last 30 years cutting govt. to the bone and then with the other hand points a finger and says.... look I told you it doesn't work. Take for instance weather models. The Europeans weather model kicks absolute ass compared to our weather models. They absolutely nailed the hurricane tracks in September. Today a major Physics announcement was made in Europe on gravitational waves. These are the things we used to do. Why are the Europeans jumping in front of us. Because we have convinced people that we need to give tax breaks to "job creators" at the expense of govt. I can show you by cutting govt. we are falling behind. Can anybody show me where tax cuts have led to job creations?

You guys create these scenarios in your minds and they are unhinged from reality.

1. Obamacare was not imploding. Trump's sabotage has that potential.

2. People who fund govts actually have better govts. Who would have thunk that?

3. The tax cuts are a gigantic give away to the Kochs and their ilk and will explode the budget. This from the "budget hawk" caucus.

Some counterpoints:
1) Obamacare is "imploding" on its own, but that means it is working precisely as intended. Likely, Obamacare will continue to destroy healthcare for the masses and end up forcing single player which has been the real goal the whole time. Obamacare has seen skyrocketing rates, less choice, and ballooning debt. Trump is not sabotaging it, he's just stopping an illegal activity that Obama engaged in.

2) Generally agree, that if you fund a government, that government can be better that's all. That doesn't mean the economy will be better or that we'll be better off as a people. They're too many other factors, e.g. how honest and efficient government is vs being corrupt and wasteful. We spend an insane amount on government in this country and run deficits every year. It is nonsense to say "government has been cut to the bone." The biggest takeaway is that Europe can spend more on social programs because the US is paying for their defense. We need to stop doing this and get our own fiscal house in order. Stop being the world police, close most of our overseas bases and bring our troops home.

3) I'm not a fan of "tax cuts" when our fiscal shape is so poor. That said, real tax reform could help us be more competitive and bring in more revenue while also lowering rates. We need to move to a fair tax or form of flat tax. The only positive I've seen in the Trump plan is lowering corporate tax rates to induce businesses to stay here.

Just want to point out. The payments are not illegal. One judges opinion said that they were and that case is being appealed.

mach.....you know I love ya.....

but, it may be time to leave the policy realm for sanity's sake....

if something is broken, most believe in taking the position to fix what is broken.....

ignoring something that is broken (by design) that is unwilling to be acknowledged by EITHER SIDE, then I have no sympathy for the side that chooses to opine for "broken"

ol' boy is stomping on some serious pie hole at this point.....

the fruit wasn't low hanging.....it was already on the ground......

(10-16-2017 01:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just want to point out. The payments are not illegal. One judges opinion said that they were and that case is being appealed.

Who's appealing the case? The case was brought by the House of Representatives against the Obama white house. Trump's whitehouse certainly isnt going to appeal the ruling.

It’s under review.

The payments were NEVER approved by Congress .... Unlike Obama ..Trump follows the Constitution


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(10-16-2017 01:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just want to point out. The payments are not illegal. One judges opinion said that they were and that case is being appealed.

By the Constitution yes they are. Congress controls the purse and the payments were not appropriated thus any expenditure was illegal. It has absolutely nothing to do with the judge and everything to do with how our government is constructed.

(10-16-2017 01:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just want to point out. The payments are not illegal. One judges opinion said that they were and that case is being appealed.

Isn't that kinda the way the judicial branch works? A judge issues a ruling. If somebody doesn't like it the appeal hoping to get the answer they want?

Los Angeles Times
Federal judge rules Obamacare is being funded unconstitutionally
By David G. Savage
May 12, 2016, 2:43 PM | Reporting from Washington

Quote:Last year, U.S. District Court Judge Rosemary Collyer broke new ground by ruling the GOP-controlled House of Representatives had legal standing to sue the president over how he was enforcing his signature healthcare law.

On Thursday, she ruled the administration is violating a provision of the law by paying promised reimbursements to health insurers who provide coverage at reduced costs to low-income Americans.

Quote:The Constitution says "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law," Collyer noted, but the administration has continued to pay billions to insurers for their extra cost of providing health coverage.

"Paying [those] reimbursements without an appropriation thus violates the Constitution," she wrote. "Congress is the only source for such an appropriation, and no public money can be spent without one."

(10-16-2017 01:33 PM)michael.stevens.3110 Wrote:  The payments were NEVER approved by Congress .... Unlike Obama ..Trump follows the Constitution


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how 'bout that.....refreshing, eh?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.co...money.html

Never appropriated = not obamacare.

If less obamacare was good, more (*pure*) obamacare is better. Enjoy!

That’s one judges opinion and it’s being appealed.

(10-16-2017 01:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just want to point out. The payments are not illegal. One judges opinion said that they were and that case is being appealed.

The ruling on the merits stated that the payments are in fact improper under the Constitution and illegal. That ruling still stands as good law.

The fact that it is appealed makes no difference as to the underlying ruling, even if the injunction that it calls for is stayed.

Perhaps a brush up on Legal Theory 101 followed by a reading of the opinion might help.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/upl...-12-16.pdf

(10-16-2017 01:38 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That’s one judges opinion and it’s being appealed.

And that ruling stands as something called "good law". I suggest you Google that phrase.

(10-16-2017 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(10-16-2017 01:18 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just want to point out. The payments are not illegal. One judges opinion said that they were and that case is being appealed.

By the Constitution yes they are. Congress controls the purse and the payments were not appropriated thus any expenditure was illegal. It has absolutely nothing to do with the judge and everything to do with how our government is constructed.

those damn facts...pound that gavel

Judicial activism. You guys don’t even hide your bias anymore. Kind of like Executive orders. When Obama did them bad. Trump does them good.

You’re 2nd graders in reasoning at this point.