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Poll: Should the NCAA be relegated to becoming NAIA 2.0?
P5 fan: Yes, let's get rid of it
P5 fan: No, I fear a replacement could be worse
G5 fan: Yes, let's get rid of it
G5 fan: No, the risk of a P5/G5 split in the process is too great
G5 fan: No, I fear a replacement could be worse
FCS fan: Yes, let's get rid of it
FCS fan: No, I fear the FCS will be left behind
FCS fan: No, I fear the replacement could be worse
My name is Jim Donnan, and I know kung fu
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Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
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ken d Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
(10-16-2017 01:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-16-2017 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  Obviously, polls like this one carry no weight. The schools pretty much ignore them, because - why not?

They are interesting, though, in their own way. At least to some extent, the things a school's fans (or a group of schools) are concerned about are likely also what their Athletics Departments and even their administrators are concerned about. What this poll suggests is that the P5 schools don't have much to worry about. Either way, they are still going to be at the top of the heap.

But 46% of the G5 fans voting in this poll are afraid they would be worse off without the NCAA. That's ambivalence with a Capital A. Even though they hate being viewed as inferior to the P5, I believe they would hate even more being viewed as the best of a lesser division. They would rather lose in FBS than win in FCS, or whatever classifications would replace the current NCAA ones.

They need the P5 more than the P5 needs them, and they will do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo IMO.

I largely agree with you, but a lot of people are missing the bigger picture here. At least on this issue, it's not really about football (which was decentralized a long time ago with OU winning its antitrust lawsuit against the NCAA. Instead, the only reason why the NCAA can even exist financially is because of *basketball*. There has long been a tacit understanding between the power conferences and the rest of the NCAA that as long as the NCAA doesn't mess with football, then the power conferences won't kill off the NCAA Tournament (as the NCAA Tournament is actually a walking antitrust violation with its redistribution of money from the power conferences, as much as the smaller conferences might mistakenly think it's the other way around).

The P5 would be all too happy to simply set up their own structure in basketball that mirrors what they have in football (where they have 95% of the revenue and effectively 100% of the postseason slots). If/when the NCAA dissolves, you can be certain that the P5 will be consolidating power even further (and even the best of the G5 like the AAC and MWC can't be assured that they'll be coming along for the ride). It certainly won't be more access than there is today.

Do you think there will ever be a time when that "hands off football" arrangement becomes more overt than tacit? What if, for example, the NCAA simply says it will no longer sponsor football in any way. That would (or could) have a major impact on the criteria the NCAA uses in establishing its Divisions.

If the 85 scholarships allowed for FBS football are no longer an issue, couldn't the NCAA drop total scholarship equivalents as one of their criteria? Would it hurt them to reduce the number of sports offered in order to qualify to play DI basketball?

I don't know what impact there would be on the required enforcement staff absent the need to police football. I suspect it could be reduced dramatically.
10-16-2017 02:40 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #42
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
(10-16-2017 01:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-16-2017 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  Obviously, polls like this one carry no weight. The schools pretty much ignore them, because - why not?

They are interesting, though, in their own way. At least to some extent, the things a school's fans (or a group of schools) are concerned about are likely also what their Athletics Departments and even their administrators are concerned about. What this poll suggests is that the P5 schools don't have much to worry about. Either way, they are still going to be at the top of the heap.

But 46% of the G5 fans voting in this poll are afraid they would be worse off without the NCAA. That's ambivalence with a Capital A. Even though they hate being viewed as inferior to the P5, I believe they would hate even more being viewed as the best of a lesser division. They would rather lose in FBS than win in FCS, or whatever classifications would replace the current NCAA ones.

They need the P5 more than the P5 needs them, and they will do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo IMO.

I largely agree with you, but a lot of people are missing the bigger picture here. At least on this issue, it's not really about football (which was decentralized a long time ago with OU winning its antitrust lawsuit against the NCAA. Instead, the only reason why the NCAA can even exist financially is because of *basketball*. There has long been a tacit understanding between the power conferences and the rest of the NCAA that as long as the NCAA doesn't mess with football, then the power conferences won't kill off the NCAA Tournament (as the NCAA Tournament is actually a walking antitrust violation with its redistribution of money from the power conferences, as much as the smaller conferences might mistakenly think it's the other way around).

The P5 would be all too happy to simply set up their own structure in basketball that mirrors what they have in football (where they have 95% of the revenue and effectively 100% of the postseason slots). If/when the NCAA dissolves, you can be certain that the P5 will be consolidating power even further (and even the best of the G5 like the AAC and MWC can't be assured that they'll be coming along for the ride). It certainly won't be more access than there is today.

The NCAA doesn't actually need the basketball tournament revenues.

Until about 20 years ago NAIA was much more vibrant of an organization than it is today. For smaller schools wanting to play low scholarship athletics it was a great organization, sensible rules, easy compliance responsibilities compared to the NCAA, common sense initial eligibility (ie. if the kid meets the school's admission standards without special admission, the athlete is immediately eligible).

The NAIA though was funded primarily by dues paid by member schools. The dues were tied to enrollment size.

So a lot of the larger NAIA schools figured out that they could move to NCAA Division II and save a decent amount of money, especially since the NCAA provided travel subsidies for post-season.

The old Arkansas Intercollegiate Conference broke up because the smallest schools were very content in the NAIA the larger schools wanted to go to Division II and the in-betweeners were ambivalent. The bigger schools gave up and joined the Gulf South, soon followed by a number of the mid-sized schools from Arkansas.

The NCAA doesn't have to have the basketball tournament for revenue. They can simply assess dues sufficient to fund the operations. Now in a dues based system that might mean some programs no longer seem critical.

That was the whole point of the NIT lawsuit, the NIT was saber-rattling that if they could get the must play rule over-turned they could find a corporate sponsor or two challenge the NCAA Tournament.

I myself have argued that a CFP style system makes better sense and smaller conferences rather than getting their spot via winning their conference tournament should be seeded into four regional qualifying tournaments to pick up one or two spots per region in the big dance.

Take the carrot away of the NCAA tournament subsidizing post-season events and just have what dues will pay for would in the long run be far healthier for intercollegiate athletics because associations like the NAIA, NCCAA, USCAA are more viable and schools would be choosing their association based on the best fit, not the cheapest fit.
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2017 02:44 PM by arkstfan.)
10-16-2017 02:40 PM
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Crewdogz Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
The NCAA should be kept and operated in the manner it was intended to operate.
10-16-2017 03:09 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
Each university with athletics should provide to the NCAA one representative for their school. Just like congress. And each conference should provide two representatives to the NCAA, just like the Senate. From there each group should be divided up into committees. Representatives need to be elected onto committees. The little schools way outnumber the P5, so the P5 walking in and dominating the "Academic Rules we aren't going to follow" or the "Divvying up the TV loot" committee or the "Screw the G5 out of another Bowl Game" committee shouldn't happen. If you didn't make a committee, you get to go home and come back next year. The committees can meet as needed to handle their business, even face to face if desired. But everything should be run democratically and with respect to all sunshine laws.

We need Academics, Finance, Fair Play, Scheduling, Revenue Sharing, Enforcement, and a dozen other committees I can't think of right now.

Then tell the groups, the re-work everything. A Top down to Bottom up rebuild of fairness for all schools and all divisions.

With that, we replace the existing NCAA.



The only rules I really want to implement are this :

#1: If a school gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, then the conference they belong to gets punished along with the team. If Team L (ouis-vile) gets caught paying a player , then they get an immediate 2 year post season ban. And the rest of the conference loses their 2 year credit cycle. If there is a second offense WITHIN THE CONFERENCE, (I'm looking at you UNCheat), then the whole conference gets a 2 year post season ban and loss of NCAA revenue.

#2: Whatever the Men's NCAA tournament brings in, divide it up equally among all the schools. There's 351 schools playing D-1 ball. Roughly 50 exist only as the Washington Generals for the rest of us to beat up upon. If the NCAA tourney makes 1.1 billion dollars, then mail each school a check for 3 million and be done with it. The same for Football. Each team going to a bowl game gets 30% of the payout for the bowl game. Their expenses come out of the 30. The rest goes into a pool and gets paid out equally to every team playing NCAA football.

#3. Mandated geographic scheduling. For example, Men's Basketball, the SEC is intertwined and surrounded by ~8 smaller conferences. The SEC should be told to play, home & away 4 games a year versus these smaller conference teams. Two Home and Two Away every year. And the teams and conferences must be on a rotation, like the NFL AFC-NFC schedule. Football could do One home and One Away per year.
10-18-2017 12:16 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
(10-18-2017 12:16 PM)BlazerPhil Wrote:  Each university with athletics should provide to the NCAA one representative for their school. Just like congress. And each conference should provide two representatives to the NCAA, just like the Senate. From there each group should be divided up into committees. Representatives need to be elected onto committees. The little schools way outnumber the P5, so the P5 walking in and dominating the "Academic Rules we aren't going to follow" or the "Divvying up the TV loot" committee or the "Screw the G5 out of another Bowl Game" committee shouldn't happen. If you didn't make a committee, you get to go home and come back next year. The committees can meet as needed to handle their business, even face to face if desired. But everything should be run democratically and with respect to all sunshine laws.

We need Academics, Finance, Fair Play, Scheduling, Revenue Sharing, Enforcement, and a dozen other committees I can't think of right now.

Then tell the groups, the re-work everything. A Top down to Bottom up rebuild of fairness for all schools and all divisions.

With that, we replace the existing NCAA.



The only rules I really want to implement are this :

#1: If a school gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, then the conference they belong to gets punished along with the team. If Team L (ouis-vile) gets caught paying a player , then they get an immediate 2 year post season ban. And the rest of the conference loses their 2 year credit cycle. If there is a second offense WITHIN THE CONFERENCE, (I'm looking at you UNCheat), then the whole conference gets a 2 year post season ban and loss of NCAA revenue.

#2: Whatever the Men's NCAA tournament brings in, divide it up equally among all the schools. There's 351 schools playing D-1 ball. Roughly 50 exist only as the Washington Generals for the rest of us to beat up upon. If the NCAA tourney makes 1.1 billion dollars, then mail each school a check for 3 million and be done with it. The same for Football. Each team going to a bowl game gets 30% of the payout for the bowl game. Their expenses come out of the 30. The rest goes into a pool and gets paid out equally to every team playing NCAA football.

#3. Mandated geographic scheduling. For example, Men's Basketball, the SEC is intertwined and surrounded by ~8 smaller conferences. The SEC should be told to play, home & away 4 games a year versus these smaller conference teams. Two Home and Two Away every year. And the teams and conferences must be on a rotation, like the NFL AFC-NFC schedule. Football could do One home and One Away per year.


NCAA have three division. That is close to 1000 schools.
10-18-2017 01:35 PM
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BlazerPhil Online
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Post: #46
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
(10-18-2017 01:35 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-18-2017 12:16 PM)BlazerPhil Wrote:  Each university with athletics should provide to the NCAA one representative for their school. Just like congress. And each conference should provide two representatives to the NCAA, just like the Senate. From there each group should be divided up into committees. Representatives need to be elected onto committees. The little schools way outnumber the P5, so the P5 walking in and dominating the "Academic Rules we aren't going to follow" or the "Divvying up the TV loot" committee or the "Screw the G5 out of another Bowl Game" committee shouldn't happen. If you didn't make a committee, you get to go home and come back next year. The committees can meet as needed to handle their business, even face to face if desired. But everything should be run democratically and with respect to all sunshine laws.

We need Academics, Finance, Fair Play, Scheduling, Revenue Sharing, Enforcement, and a dozen other committees I can't think of right now.

Then tell the groups, the re-work everything. A Top down to Bottom up rebuild of fairness for all schools and all divisions.

With that, we replace the existing NCAA.



The only rules I really want to implement are this :

#1: If a school gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, then the conference they belong to gets punished along with the team. If Team L (ouis-vile) gets caught paying a player , then they get an immediate 2 year post season ban. And the rest of the conference loses their 2 year credit cycle. If there is a second offense WITHIN THE CONFERENCE, (I'm looking at you UNCheat), then the whole conference gets a 2 year post season ban and loss of NCAA revenue.

#2: Whatever the Men's NCAA tournament brings in, divide it up equally among all the schools. There's 351 schools playing D-1 ball. Roughly 50 exist only as the Washington Generals for the rest of us to beat up upon. If the NCAA tourney makes 1.1 billion dollars, then mail each school a check for 3 million and be done with it. The same for Football. Each team going to a bowl game gets 30% of the payout for the bowl game. Their expenses come out of the 30. The rest goes into a pool and gets paid out equally to every team playing NCAA football.

#3. Mandated geographic scheduling. For example, Men's Basketball, the SEC is intertwined and surrounded by ~8 smaller conferences. The SEC should be told to play, home & away 4 games a year versus these smaller conference teams. Two Home and Two Away every year. And the teams and conferences must be on a rotation, like the NFL AFC-NFC schedule. Football could do One home and One Away per year.


NCAA have three division. That is close to 1000 schools.


Right. And anything pertaining to a lower division there should be committees for the oversight of those divisions, made up of and voted for by those divisions only. If needed, the whole conference of representatives could be divided into their respective divisions, but most of the rules are the same at the higher levels.
10-18-2017 02:17 PM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Should collegiate athletics punt on the NCAA itself?
The NCAA is extremely useless. The Baylor situation, the Penn State situation, the Adidas/FBI situation-need I go on??
10-18-2017 11:16 PM
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