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No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
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braves95 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 08:31 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 10:34 PM)stc Wrote:  This may not be a popular opinion. Please don't take this as an endorsement for Watts. If the program hadn't been shut down, I see no way we have the facilities we have now. Clark would of had a very successful 2015 & would've been scooped up by a bigger program. In a year or so we'd have been right back where we started. The shutdown changed the narrative, without it none of this is happening.

A plane was ready to go pick up Jimbo Fisher and Carol Garrison had a conservative yet profitable business plan for an on campus stadium

Ray Watts was no hero and should be fired. The damage he did was much deeper than just athletics

Stuff like this is why I LOATHE the BOT. Could have had Jimbo Fisher. Multiple 7-figure donations turned down by the BOT. Personally I'd love to see UAB rock some Birmingham jerseys like they did in hoops a few years ago. Show the BOT that WE are our own school/team/community and we don't need them.
10-12-2017 11:32 AM
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mixduptransistor Offline
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Post: #22
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 11:32 AM)braves95 Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 08:31 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 10:34 PM)stc Wrote:  This may not be a popular opinion. Please don't take this as an endorsement for Watts. If the program hadn't been shut down, I see no way we have the facilities we have now. Clark would of had a very successful 2015 & would've been scooped up by a bigger program. In a year or so we'd have been right back where we started. The shutdown changed the narrative, without it none of this is happening.

A plane was ready to go pick up Jimbo Fisher and Carol Garrison had a conservative yet profitable business plan for an on campus stadium

Ray Watts was no hero and should be fired. The damage he did was much deeper than just athletics

Stuff like this is why I LOATHE the BOT. Could have had Jimbo Fisher. Multiple 7-figure donations turned down by the BOT. Personally I'd love to see UAB rock some Birmingham jerseys like they did in hoops a few years ago. Show the BOT that WE are our own school/team/community and we don't need them.

Herr Watts has banned the Birmingham jerseys from all athletics teams, including basketball. But, you know, he's still the savior of UAB Athletics and we should name something after him probably
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 11:37 AM by mixduptransistor.)
10-12-2017 11:37 AM
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BatesUAB Offline
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Post: #23
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 11:16 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 09:17 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  2. Ray Watts shutting the program down is absolutely the best thing that ever happened.

No, it is far from "absolutely the best thing that ever happened"

The "absolutely best thing that could have happened" would be Carol Z. Garrison still president and UAB would be playing their third season on Gene Bartow Field at Legacy Stadium

Ray Watts shutting down the program did spur good outcomes, but Bill Clark was hired before it happened and I don't think the program would have been mired in mediocrity had the administration not been actively hostile. Things might not have accelerated as quickly as they did, and the outcome has turned out to be greater than anyone could have imagined, but we would all have been better off emotionally and financially had things turned out differently

You're confusing "what could have happened" with what actually happened and what would have happened. The admin would have been actively hostile, without a doubt. We would be in a much worse financial position had the shutdown not occurred. I know people just don't want to admit that as bad, as painful, as disgusting as it was (and I still believe it was all those things), the shutdown is the singular moment that put us on a different trajectory. That was the breaking of the eggs that made the delicious omelette we now have. Make no mistake- Ray Watts didn't shut us down to get this outcome, but the shutdown is the reason we have what we have. I will give you this- the hiring of Bill Clark is the other ingredient. He's the cheese in the omelette. Without him, this doesn't happen.

And look, I want him gone. I don't think he is a savior of the program. I don't trust him, I don't believe him, and I think he is a residual stain on this university. But facts are facts.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 11:42 AM by BatesUAB.)
10-12-2017 11:40 AM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #24
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 11:40 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 11:16 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 09:17 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  2. Ray Watts shutting the program down is absolutely the best thing that ever happened.

No, it is far from "absolutely the best thing that ever happened"

The "absolutely best thing that could have happened" would be Carol Z. Garrison still president and UAB would be playing their third season on Gene Bartow Field at Legacy Stadium

Ray Watts shutting down the program did spur good outcomes, but Bill Clark was hired before it happened and I don't think the program would have been mired in mediocrity had the administration not been actively hostile. Things might not have accelerated as quickly as they did, and the outcome has turned out to be greater than anyone could have imagined, but we would all have been better off emotionally and financially had things turned out differently

You're confusing "what could have happened" with what actually happened and what would have happened. The admin would have been actively hostile, without a doubt. We would be in a much worse financial position had the shutdown not occurred. I know people just don't want to admit that as bad, as painful, as disgusting as it was (and I still believe it was all those things), the shutdown is the singular moment that put us on a different trajectory. That was the breaking of the eggs that made the delicious omelette we now have. Make no mistake- Ray Watts didn't shut us down to get this outcome, but the shutdown is the reason we have what we have. I will give you this- the hiring of Bill Clark is the other ingredient. He's the cheese in the omelette. Without him, this doesn't happen.

And look, I want him gone. I don't think he is a savior of the program. I don't trust him, I don't believe him, and I think he is a residual stain on this university. But facts are facts.

That is like saying, I was mistreated and forcibly impoverished for 20 years. Finally, my oppressor put me in jail. Then, after 6 months, he let me out because he was under great pressure and scrutiny over his actions, including the past 20 years, and I was then able to work my way out of poverty. Getting thrown in jail was the best thing that ever happened to me!

No, the best thing that ever happened to you was that your oppressor got out of your way. Had he had done it 20 years ago, you wouldn't have been impoverished all those years.

The best thing that ever happened to UAB Football was that our BOT oppressors had to step back out of our way. To say it was due to the shutdown is to ignore the series of events that occurred for years leading up to the shutdown. Did the shutdown bring it all to a head? Yes. Maybe so. But please let's not act like we're better off than we would have been if we had not been oppressed to start with.

For starters, we would be in a better conference. By now, we would have better facilities, multiple bowl wins, maybe some conference titles. A new stadium? Who knows?

To recap, the shutdown was not good. The response to it was good. Let's put the credit in the right places.
10-12-2017 01:09 PM
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BatesUAB Offline
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Post: #25
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
We're getting into a semantic argument here, but I'll go on for just a little longer. To keep talking about what didn't happen in the past, or what we should have been able to do, or where we would have been- that is all just speculative wishful thinking. Would we have been better off, in a better conference winning more games with more money IF we hadn't been oppressed? Yes. But you can't change the past. What happened happened. The defining moment has to be a moment that actually occurred.

I'm not saying the shutdown was good. It was painful, and it hurt me deeply. BUT- it was in fact the best thing that happened to us. You can act like we would end up where we are now eventually, but the facts don't bear that out. You say that the best thing was that the "BOT oppressors had to step back out of our way." The only reason that happened was the violent backlash after the shutdown.

Let me put this into a historical context. On December 6, 1941, the United States was mostly of an isolationist mindset. Only 23 years removed from the bloodshed of the Great War, we wanted nothing to do with WWII. Then Pearl Harbor happened. Not only did it change the opinion of the population regarding getting involved, on a tactical level it changed the way the Pacific was fought, and we ended up winning because of it. And now the light of freedom shines, etc. etc. Pearl Harbor was terrible, one of the darkest days in our history. But ultimately it was the best thing that could have happened. It got us into the war before all was lost in Europe, before Japan became unstoppable, and likely saved untold tens of millions of lives.

The shutdown was our Pearl Harbor. Ray Watts is our Yamamoto.
10-12-2017 01:49 PM
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mixduptransistor Offline
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Post: #26
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
The Board is not out of the way. If they were, they would've been breaking ground on a new stadium instead of intramural fields today
10-12-2017 01:49 PM
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BatesUAB Offline
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Post: #27
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 01:49 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The Board is not out of the way. If they were, they would've been breaking ground on a new stadium instead of intramural fields today

That's a fact.
10-12-2017 01:50 PM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #28
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 01:50 PM)BatesUAB Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 01:49 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The Board is not out of the way. If they were, they would've been breaking ground on a new stadium instead of intramural fields today

That's a fact.

They are more out of the way than they were. They have been pushed back for now.
10-12-2017 01:54 PM
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the Dragon Offline
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Post: #29
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
(10-12-2017 01:49 PM)BatesUAB Wrote:  BUT- it was in fact the best thing that happened to us. You can act like we would end up where we are now eventually, but the facts don't bear that out. You say that the best thing was that the "BOT oppressors had to step back out of our way." The only reason that happened was the violent backlash after the shutdown.

Let me put this into a historical context. On December 6, 1941, the United States was mostly of an isolationist mindset. Only 23 years removed from the bloodshed of the Great War, we wanted nothing to do with WWII. Then Pearl Harbor happened. Not only did it change the opinion of the population regarding getting involved, on a tactical level it changed the way the Pacific was fought, and we ended up winning because of it. And now the light of freedom shines, etc. etc. Pearl Harbor was terrible, one of the darkest days in our history. But ultimately it was the best thing that could have happened. It got us into the war before all was lost in Europe, before Japan became unstoppable, and likely saved untold tens of millions of lives.

The shutdown was our Pearl Harbor. Ray Watts is our Yamamoto.

You're right about semantics maybe. My point of contention is the bold statement above.

Was Pearl Harbor the best thing that ever happened to Europe since it brought the US into the war? No. The best thing that happened to Europe is that the Nazis were defeated by the Allies, including the US. Did Pearl Harbor spark that? Yes. But don't credit the Japanese. Credit the US and Allied response.

Don't credit the shutdown itself for the positive stuff. Without the response to it, we would still be shut down.

Why are we better off now after the shutdown? Because the Birmingham community fought back, and powerful people joined us because of that fight, and those powerful people pushed the BOT and Watts into bringing football back in the right way!

When you credit the shutdown for that, you diminish the role of the people who did the work.

I think I was wrong earlier. I said the best thing that ever happened to UAB Football was that the BOT got out of our way.

Actually, the best thing that ever happened to UAB Football is that the UAB Family stood up and fought for it! THAT is why we are better off now than ever before.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2017 02:04 PM by the Dragon.)
10-12-2017 02:03 PM
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Post: #30
RE: No, Ray Hasn't Changed His Stripes
Yamamoto was a visionary, extremely competent at military planning. He executed a near-perfect surprise attack. He also warned the Japanese High Command that doing so would cause the U.S. to unite, and that once we had time to get our military and industrial production on a war footing that we would defeat the Japanese over time.

Ray Watts stood there with the BoT's hand up his butt and parroted the words they and their PR team supplied him. The fact that he still has a job at UAB is evidence of the Board's contempt for us and our powerlessness to administer our own affairs.
10-12-2017 02:39 PM
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