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Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
(10-06-2017 04:57 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Toledo, Western Michigan, Ball State, Bowling Green, Central Michigan and Northern Illinois all are up and down like a Yo-Yo. They all are like a P5 killers at times, but at the end, wind up losing. Central Michigan beat Oklahoma State, and wound up 6-6 on the season. They usually under-perform in the bowls as well after having better win records.

Sadly, Boise State just under-perform the last few years. Harsin was not their answer to replaced Petersen. They should have gotten somebody that was coaching under him when he left to continue where he left off.

Northern Illinois hasn't been that up and down lately. They were down last year but had QB injuries which didn't help. We've had coaches leave but the same offense was left in place, more or less, so there wasn't much of an adjustment. The QB, or lack of one, makes a bigger difference.
10-06-2017 05:26 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
(10-06-2017 05:09 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(10-06-2017 04:57 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Toledo, Western Michigan, Ball State, Bowling Green, Central Michigan and Northern Illinois all are up and down like a Yo-Yo. They all are like a P5 killers at times, but at the end, wind up losing. Central Michigan beat Oklahoma State, and wound up 6-6 on the season. They usually under-perform in the bowls as well after having better win records.

Sadly, Boise State just under-perform the last few years. Harsin was not their answer to replaced Petersen. They should have gotten somebody that was coaching under him when he left to continue where he left off.

All our coaches leave. We all work from the same budget. Central Michigan might be 10-2 one year, their coach is hired away, and they go 6-6 the next year. Meanwhile, Ball St's hired a great coach and they go from 6-6 the year CMU went 10-2 and go 11-1 the year CMU goes 6-6. (as an example)

It's why Bowling Green St can steamroll Indiana one year, then go 2-10 the next.

Also, looking at Harsin's resume, looks to me like he was very qualified (and had ties to Boise St too). I can see why they went with him. Also, is it possible the coach before Harsin took a lot of his coordinators and the like to Washington? (That's what Fleck did when he left WMU and went to Minnesota. I think there was like one coordinator who didn't go, and he went to UMASS)

I would say that MAC schools are simply reflective of the problems nearly all G5 programs face. To call them undeperforming is unrealistic. It's not just coaches leaving. When a G5 school has a strong run, it is often because they have a transcendent player, usually a QB, for a few years. Unlike the top P5 programs, who simply replace their transcendent players with new ones, the G5 team has to rebuild. To suggest that rebuilding period in "underperforming" isn't really fair to those programs.
10-06-2017 06:49 PM
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Love and Honor Online
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RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
I'd argue that Buffalo is the biggest underachiever in the MAC relative to the type of institution they are, they're a flagship in one of the largest states in the nation and have a large metro area in their backyard. Aside from a fluke conference championship and a season where they had Khalil Mack they've done very little, and that's going up against a bunch of Ohio schools competing for fans and resources.

(10-06-2017 02:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Miami U. has underperformed over the last decade, but that may just be coaching issues.

Yes and no, the blame almost exclusively rests on our former AD (who was forced out at BC earlier in the year). He basically neglected football and basketball during his tenure in favor of hockey and Olympic sports, and it shows. To give an example, our football coach after Terry Hoeppner and the Big Ben years was Shane Montgomery about a decade ago - he made $150K for being HC and OC, so imagine how much support he had in hiring assistants. His next coaching choice was overruled by the president since he sucked, we won the MAC with the actual coach, and then to replace him after he was hired away he brought in one of the worst coaches in MAC history, taking a ten win team returning almost everyone down to a nine-point per game offense when we went winless in 2013. By that point the AD was in Boston and we're still cleaning up the mess.

Quote:I agree with this. Reading up on Miami of Ohio's history, it's insane how good they used to be. (Then from what I understand, basically it was deemed only Ohio St could have graduate programs which killed Miami of Ohio and Ohio U - and presumably Cinci too)

That graduate law lasted from the late 19th century until the WWII era IIRC and that solidified OSU as 'the' flagship in Ohio along with them being in the capital city. Miami as a result put all our eggs in the undergrad basket and that's still our bread and butter today, the USNWR rankings always put us in the Top 3 on their 'undergrad teaching' lists but our grad programs are basically limited to some PhD programs and accounting.

Interestingly enough, OU and Miami both were founded decades before OSU and there was a debate on whether or not to grant one of them flagship status until then-Governor Rutherford Hayes pushed for a new school in Columbus after the Morrill Act. It's not too hard to imagine them coming up with an arrangement similar to Indiana and Purdue with us both being in the Big Ten today.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2017 07:02 PM by Love and Honor.)
10-06-2017 06:58 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
(10-06-2017 02:41 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(10-06-2017 02:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Rice and Tulane are small schools with high standards in pro sports markets. They aren't underperforming.

Miami U. has underperformed over the last decade, but that may just be coaching issues.

UNLV is the school I would list as underperforming. They are large, have resources and are right next door to California.

Second on the list would be Memphis. They have done well the last 3 years, but not the prior 100. They have some of the best fan support, no pro sports and Enormous State University is all the way across the state.

I respectfully disagree.

Northwestern is in the 3rd largest combined statistical area with 5 professional big 4 sports teams. USNWR Ranking #11. ~8,400 undergrads.

Stanford is in the 5th largest combined statistical area with 6 professional big 4 sports teams. USNWR Ranking #5. ~7,000 undergrads.

Duke is the 29th largest combined statistical area with 1 professional big 4 sports team. USNWR Ranking #9. ~6,500 undergrads.

-

SMU is in the 7th largest combined statistical area with 4 professional big 4 sports teams. USNWR Ranking #61. ~6,500 undergrads.

Rice is in the 9th largest combined statistical area with 3 professional big 4 sports teams. USNWR Ranking #14. ~4,000 undergrads.

Tulane is in the 36th largest combined statistical area with 2 professional big 4 sports teams. USNWR Ranking #40. ~8,500 undergrads.

---

It would seem to me the biggest difference is academic rankings.

Northwestern was the biggest joke in college football prior to the mid-90s. Stanford has been very up and down. Duke, until the last 3 or 4 years has been awful since Steve Spurrier was there.

And all 3 have 2 to 3 times the number of students of Rice. Until recently (last 15 years or so), Rice was the smallest FBS school in number of undergraduates-by far. They only had 2,500. They are up to about 4k now. Probably only Tulsa and the military academies have fewer.
10-06-2017 07:35 PM
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Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
Rice, because they always suck
SMU, they were a power until death penalty
UConn, for reasons already mentioned
UCLA, been awhile since they have been high echelon
UNLV, for reasons stated above
BYU, because their fans say they should win National title every year.


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10-06-2017 07:58 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
*San Diego St: up until recently, this was the sleeping giant that took decades to wake up. They have woken up and the Chargers left. Perfect timing.

Uconn-Flagship university with 0 FBS and 0 NFL in their state.

UNLV-Big market with no pro sports (changing soon) Decent recruiting grounds.

New Mexico-Flagship in a state with no pro sports in a metro of around a million.

UTEP-No pro sports in a metro of over a million in college football crazed Texas.

Tulane-Big metro, big school in the heart of college football crazed SEC country.

Cincinnati-2nd fiddle in huge state. Good school. Located in college football crazed Big 10 country.

Houston-Huge market, great recruiting, huge school. Located in football crazed Texas.

Hawaii-Flagship university with 0 FBS & NFL competition. Metro of close to a million. Great recruiting on the islands.
10-06-2017 08:28 PM
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EagleNationRising Offline
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RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
Georgia Southern for sure. Maybe it’s just the current regime, but it’s way waaaay downhill during this HCs tenure
10-06-2017 08:49 PM
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RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
(10-06-2017 04:57 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Toledo, Western Michigan, Ball State, Bowling Green, Central Michigan and Northern Illinois all are up and down like a Yo-Yo. They all are like a P5 killers at times, but at the end, wind up losing. Central Michigan beat Oklahoma State, and wound up 6-6 on the season. They usually under-perform in the bowls as well after having better win records.

Sadly, Boise State just under-perform the last few years. Harsin was not their answer to replaced Petersen. They should have gotten somebody that was coaching under him when he left to continue where he left off.

Have been consistent winners for some time, same with Ohio with Solich.
10-07-2017 07:07 AM
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Bronco'14 Offline
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RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
(10-06-2017 06:58 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I'd argue that Buffalo is the biggest underachiever in the MAC relative to the type of institution they are, they're a flagship in one of the largest states in the nation and have a large metro area in their backyard. Aside from a fluke conference championship and a season where they had Khalil Mack they've done very little, and that's going up against a bunch of Ohio schools competing for fans and resources.
UB's biggest problem is that they're still relatively new to D1. That being said, seems like they've had more than enough time to figure things out.



(10-06-2017 06:58 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Yes and no, the blame almost exclusively rests on our former AD (who was forced out at BC earlier in the year). He basically neglected football and basketball during his tenure in favor of hockey and Olympic sports, and it shows. To give an example, our football coach after Terry Hoeppner and the Big Ben years was Shane Montgomery about a decade ago - he made $150K for being HC and OC, so imagine how much support he had in hiring assistants. His next coaching choice was overruled by the president since he sucked, we won the MAC with the actual coach, and then to replace him after he was hired away he brought in one of the worst coaches in MAC history, taking a ten win team returning almost everyone down to a nine-point per game offense when we went winless in 2013. By that point the AD was in Boston and we're still cleaning up the mess.
Putting some money in hockey may not've been such a bad move with the recent realignment. Miami - until like last year - has been regarded as a power-house and got invited to the NCHC for a reason. The NCHC fans seem to like having you guys, it's my Broncos they seem to think weakens the Conference.

I'd love to see you guys get good in football again, because you guys have that history and it seems to have been forgotten. (And you're WMU's NCHC/MAC brethren!)

(10-06-2017 06:58 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  That graduate law lasted from the late 19th century until the WWII era IIRC and that solidified OSU as 'the' flagship in Ohio along with them being in the capital city. Miami as a result put all our eggs in the undergrad basket and that's still our bread and butter today, the USNWR rankings always put us in the Top 3 on their 'undergrad teaching' lists but our grad programs are basically limited to some PhD programs and accounting.

Interestingly enough, OU and Miami both were founded decades before OSU and there was a debate on whether or not to grant one of them flagship status until then-Governor Rutherford Hayes pushed for a new school in Columbus after the Morrill Act. It's not too hard to imagine them coming up with an arrangement similar to Indiana and Purdue with us both being in the Big Ten today.
Seems like the Ohio Big 10 would've been either Miami of Ohio or Ohio and Cincinnati.

But in regards to the grad programs, seems like that might hurt Miami (and other MAC schools) too. You don't want to be known as a diploma mill. Or a school where your alumni get their graduate degree at a Power 5-ish school.
10-07-2017 01:47 PM
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RE: Most Underperforming G5 Football Programs
(10-06-2017 06:58 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I'd argue that Buffalo is the biggest underachiever in the MAC relative to the type of institution they are, they're a flagship in one of the largest states in the nation and have a large metro area in their backyard. Aside from a fluke conference championship and a season where they had Khalil Mack they've done very little, and that's going up against a bunch of Ohio schools competing for fans and resources.

(10-06-2017 02:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Miami U. has underperformed over the last decade, but that may just be coaching issues.

Yes and no, the blame almost exclusively rests on our former AD (who was forced out at BC earlier in the year). He basically neglected football and basketball during his tenure in favor of hockey and Olympic sports, and it shows. To give an example, our football coach after Terry Hoeppner and the Big Ben years was Shane Montgomery about a decade ago - he made $150K for being HC and OC, so imagine how much support he had in hiring assistants. His next coaching choice was overruled by the president since he sucked, we won the MAC with the actual coach, and then to replace him after he was hired away he brought in one of the worst coaches in MAC history, taking a ten win team returning almost everyone down to a nine-point per game offense when we went winless in 2013. By that point the AD was in Boston and we're still cleaning up the mess.

Quote:I agree with this. Reading up on Miami of Ohio's history, it's insane how good they used to be. (Then from what I understand, basically it was deemed only Ohio St could have graduate programs which killed Miami of Ohio and Ohio U - and presumably Cinci too)

That graduate law lasted from the late 19th century until the WWII era IIRC and that solidified OSU as 'the' flagship in Ohio along with them being in the capital city. Miami as a result put all our eggs in the undergrad basket and that's still our bread and butter today, the USNWR rankings always put us in the Top 3 on their 'undergrad teaching' lists but our grad programs are basically limited to some PhD programs and accounting.

Interestingly enough, OU and Miami both were founded decades before OSU and there was a debate on whether or not to grant one of them flagship status until then-Governor Rutherford Hayes pushed for a new school in Columbus after the Morrill Act. It's not too hard to imagine them coming up with an arrangement similar to Indiana and Purdue with us both being in the Big Ten today.

Your players don't know how to win. For the 2nd time this season they have snatched defeat out of the hands of victory.
10-07-2017 07:51 PM
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