The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

Harry allows his bias to creep into his writing. I don't mind it considering its sports related even if I don't agree with all of his opinions. You can get some pretty bland sports articles if a writer completely withholds all of their opinions.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Why do you think he has an axe to grind?

Because he keeps writing articles about it when no one's asking for it.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Think of it this way... if Liberty is in our conference, that is one less trip to Texas or Florida all of our sports teams have to make. How much money will that save?

Any money at all that is saved from this would be negated by having another mouth to feed. Look at how many people are talking about wanting to kick members out to get to 12! No one in their right mind is going to push for 15 (which would inevitably get bumped up to 16).

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Is Liberty an athletic juggernaut? No, but they are no worse than any of the Texas or Florida schools in the conference, aside from UTEP basketball.

Liberty is neither an athletic nor academic juggernaut. They're not a juggernaut in anything other than being able to wring a lot of money out of students as a private institution. I would also contend that athletically Liberty is worse than UTEP, UTSA, and even North Texas. At least they have had sustained (or in UTSA's case, quickly developed) success before in one of the major sports.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  And who really gives a rat's arse about their religious affiliation? That is their perogative, not ours.

I don't care about their religious affiliation. This is an excuse used by Liberty fans who want to paint themselves as the victim of some sort of phantom persecution. If they were a TCU, SMU, Notre Dame, etc then they'd be fine. It's the vitriol of the Falwell family and the inability/unwillingness of Liberty to distance themselves from that family and those views is what really irks me. Believe it or not, being in an athletic conference with a school also puts them on the same pedestal as you academically and can make people infer that member schools are peer institutions. University presidents are well within their right to not want their school to be associated with Liberty University.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Does anyone think UVA or Florida State endorses and is under control of the Vatican because Notre Dame and Boston College are in the ACC?

...... What?

I thought the same thing when I read this. Not that I seriously think he's getting paid by them but he's doing an awful lot of schilling for them.

Point out their excellent athletic facilities and desire to continue to spend money on athletics. Fair point. Point to the advantages that having an in-state conference partner would have for ODU. Great. Point to a twitter post by Fallwell Jr. that sounds like it was ghost-written by the "cash me ouside" girl that's calling Presidents of other Universities in CUSA and Sun Belt bigots and say "he's got a point". You lost me.

(09-19-2017 09:25 AM)FantomVII Wrote:  

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(09-19-2017 09:06 AM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  I don't think he's being paid by Liberty, but he apparently does really REALLY want them in the same conference as ODU. He's got an axe to grind and he's in a position where he can make his voice heard and he's taking full advantage. Thankfully I don't think the conference administration makes their decisions based on the opinions of one beat writer.

Why do you think he has an axe to grind?

Think of it this way... if Liberty is in our conference, that is one less trip to Texas or Florida all of our sports teams have to make. How much money will that save?

Is Liberty an athletic juggernaut? No, but they are no worse than any of the Texas or Florida schools in the conference, aside from UTEP basketball. And who really gives a rat's arse about their religious affiliation? That is their perogative, not ours. Does anyone think UVA or Florida State endorses and is under control of the Vatican because Notre Dame and Boston College are in the ACC?

Notre Dame is an FBS independent, which I believe Liberty may be striving to become like.

Notre Dame is in the ACC for all sports except for football.

"Ignoring that he is devout and his political ideology aligns closely with Liberty's,"
Drunkard wins!

I had no ill will towards Liberty. I did not think that they belonged in the SBC as a wealthy private.

I argued that they should be granted a waiver as an independent and was rooting for tgem.

But Fallwell's implication that anti-Christian bias kept them out of the SBC administrations is not appreciated.

Our admin tried to get away with crosses on our helmets for crying out loud.

Not a real fan of Liberty this morning.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

HM misses this point. The school itself is probably OK. It's the president who is the problem, as evidenced by recent articles pointing out LU alumni and current students returning diplomas based on unhappiness with Jr's statements and embracing of Trump.
It is impossible and should go without saying to have a healthy faith based institution if the head of that institution is as unchristian as Falwell Jr. As lo0ng as he is president, the entire school is in jeopardy and is far to volatile to be considered for inclusion in any conference. If Falwell leaves, revisit

Maybe it is because I am not particularly religious; so it seems silly for this to even be in the discussion either way.

Should VCU leave the A-10 because it has Catholic schools?
Should Notre Dame, Baylor, BYU, and SMU be kicked out of their respective conferences? (admittedly Baylor and SMU have distanced themselves from some affiliations)

Liberty makes great sense from a financial and an in state standpoint.
Before ECU and the others moved to the AAC, I didn't like the idea of another FBS G5 in Va that would compete for recruits and media time.
It makes a lot more sense now.

Since the Cox Bill virtually assured JMU of not moving up in the foreseeable future, Liberty is almost a no-brainer if you can get past the stigma of Fallwell.

This should be about athletics only.

Liberty makes sense from a financial sense, but are they good enough athletically to compete? I only know football (FCS level, but might be improving) and basketball (terrible).

Call me crazy, but what the heck does it matter which political candidate Liberty's president supported? At the end of the day this should only be about the health and outlook of their athletic program. Add to that their regional proximity to a few CUSA schools and their acceptance should have been a no-brainer.

(09-19-2017 09:46 AM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Why do you think he has an axe to grind?

Because he keeps writing articles about it when no one's asking for it.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Think of it this way... if Liberty is in our conference, that is one less trip to Texas or Florida all of our sports teams have to make. How much money will that save?

Any money at all that is saved from this would be negated by having another mouth to feed. Look at how many people are talking about wanting to kick members out to get to 12! No one in their right mind is going to push for 15 (which would inevitably get bumped up to 16).

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Is Liberty an athletic juggernaut? No, but they are no worse than any of the Texas or Florida schools in the conference, aside from UTEP basketball.

Liberty is neither an athletic nor academic juggernaut. They're not a juggernaut in anything other than being able to wring a lot of money out of students as a private institution. I would also contend that athletically Liberty is worse than UTEP, UTSA, and even North Texas. At least they have had sustained (or in UTSA's case, quickly developed) success before in one of the major sports.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  And who really gives a rat's arse about their religious affiliation? That is their perogative, not ours.

I don't care about their religious affiliation. This is an excuse used by Liberty fans who want to paint themselves as the victim of some sort of phantom persecution. If they were a TCU, SMU, Notre Dame, etc then they'd be fine. It's the vitriol of the Falwell family and the inability/unwillingness of Liberty to distance themselves from that family and those views is what really irks me. Believe it or not, being in an athletic conference with a school also puts them on the same pedestal as you academically and can make people infer that member schools are peer institutions. University presidents are well within their right to not want their school to be associated with Liberty University.

(09-19-2017 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Does anyone think UVA or Florida State endorses and is under control of the Vatican because Notre Dame and Boston College are in the ACC?

...... What?

Quote:Because he keeps writing articles about it when no one's asking for it.

How do you know nobody is asking for it?

Quote:Any money at all that is saved from this would be negated by having another mouth to feed.

I agree, way too many mouths to feed already. Harry's agenda, if you go back and read his writings over the last 2 years, is a new regional conference, not expansion of CUSA. It could include the likes of Liberty, JMU, Richmond, UNCC, Marshall, and some other mix of CUSA-East, CAA, and MAC schools to get to 10-12.

Quote:They're not a juggernaut in anything other than being able to wring a lot of money out of students as a private institution. I would also contend that athletically Liberty is worse than UTEP, UTSA, and even North Texas.

Money is far more important than whatever marginal differences, whatever the argument, exist in the revenue athletic programs of Liberty vs UTSA, UNT, FAU, FIU, and Rice. I'll leave UTEP off because they do have a good enough basketball program that its affiliation with us often adds some value.

Quote:...... What?

A common argument against Liberty is that we do not want to be associated with their religious affiliation. Just making a point that the religious affiliations of other schools do not affect the perception of other schools in the conference. I can think of no precedence for this.

There is more to value in a potential conference mate than regional proximity. It's the quality of their athletics, and that alone, that is the reason why I don't want them aboard. SEC budget with Big South talent. No thanks.

IMHO, JMU would be a better addition, and I don't really want them aboard either. At least the Dukes would bring quality football and baseball with them.

(09-19-2017 10:30 AM)webster Wrote:  Call me crazy, but what the heck does it matter which political candidate Liberty's president supported? At the end of the day this should only be about the health and outlook of their athletic program. Add to that their regional proximity to a few CUSA schools and their acceptance should have been a no-brainer.

Really? No brainer? As others have pointed out, their athletic history is not really that stellar. Could be called bad even. CUSA is not looking for a replacement. We not sitting at an uneven number. Do you all seriously believe Liberty brings enough to the table to take our ranks to 16? Now ODU gets the advantage of an instate partner but look at it from USM's or La Tech's point of view or FIU/FAU. Liberty? Really? I'm at a loss. There's plenty of reasons to objectively reject Liberty's application.

(09-19-2017 10:37 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  A common argument against Liberty is that we do not want to be associated with their religious affiliation. Just making a point that the religious affiliations of other schools do not affect the perception of other schools in the conference. I can think of no precedence for this.

I think there's a legitimate argument of not wanting to be associated with Liberty that's not necessarily religious or political in the schools stance but how they express that stance nd the priority they put on it.

Look at Falwell's tweet:

"Few bigoted U pres big on diversity & inclusion (except 4 conservatives)vetoed LU from Sun Belt, CUSA."

Can't really blame President's for not wanting to jump into bed with this guy.

I doubt TCU or SMU or BYU's president's display this kind of unprofessional behavior. (and you know, they're goods at sports and stuff too)

Maybe we should try that.

"The bigoted ADs and Presidents won't accept ODU into the SEC because they don't like lions".

A few thoughts:

1. Harry's a straight shooter. I've known Harry off and on over the years and respect his work, both in sports and news. He's probably the last guy in the newsroom that would be on the take, and he's earned the benefit of a half-dozen doubts. Quibble if you will about what he writes, but he's always been on the level, and I don't see him endangering his well-earned reputation for whatever ducats Liberty might be willing to provide (aside: Would Liberty be willing to pay for positive content from media outlets? I would say "probably not" but I also wouldn't need a fainting couch if it turned out that they were trying to buy better/more positive coverage).

2. Liberty is an important story from an ODU perspective. I think a lot of us expected ECU or JMU to be the big regional rival in G5, but ECU is in a different conference and JMU is forever monitoring, so Liberty it is. They have interest in a long-term athletic relationship with ODU while competing with them for recruits and regional media coverage. Liberty's ups and downs indirectly, and in some cases directly, affect ODU.

3. Liberty is an interesting story regardless its ODU connection. They're the canary in the coal mine for FCS programs moving to FBS independence. They'll clear a path for other would-be move-ups like JMU or North Dakota State, or they'll succeed in a way that can't be duplicated because of their unique situation, or they'll fail. But their transition to FBS is more interesting than any other FCS call-up's story (yes, even including ODU) and they're a far different breed of FBS independent than the others too. That they're a three-hour drive from Norfolk makes them a reasonable target for a story or three.

4. Hampton Roads has a strong conservative Christian influence. Regent, CBN, the ACLJ. I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'd be willing to wager that there's a good number of people here who are pulling for Liberty because of, not despite, their political/religious bent.

That said, I think Harry missed an important aspect of the CUSA/Liberty discussion — a Liberty add would bring CUSA to 15 full members at a time when there's no incentive to have more than 10. Even if you were OK with an expansive league that treats the two divisions as de facto conferences, you'd need at least a 16th school, and there's nobody out there who a) moves the needle and b) would accept. At this point I don't think even the Sun Belt schools would move, if for no other reason than why pay exit and entrance fees for a lateral move? So you're looking at a call-up or maybe New Mexico State. Hey, maybe the AAC can let us know where they got those P6 stickers!

I will say this also: It is very telling that the presence of interracial couples was used to describe Liberty as a more tolerant school than people realize. In 2017.

As for why Liberty's religious identification or political leanings matter in the context of athletics: They don't, at least to the preponderance of fans, athletes, coaches and staff. But conference alignment decisions rest in the hands of school presidents, who take the whole "institutional fit" thing seriously. There's a reason the Big East is exclusively private and almost exclusively Catholic. Or why Tulane got into the AAC when its on-field exploits are more worthy of the Atlantic Sun. Or why Wake Forest will be in the ACC as long as it so desires, no matter how much the Realignment Risk players on the main board want to make it not so.

Liberty's going to be a weird fit for pretty much any FBS conference, plus unlike most schools that (trigger warning!) evolved over decades if not centuries, Liberty sort of exploded onto the scene thanks in large part to their burgeoning online program. They're doing great now, but is that sustainable? And if it's not, does Liberty bring enough without it? Or do they become the academic equivalent of pets.com? University presidents are risk-adverse creatures, and they may be reluctant to embrace the new-money neighbors, no matter how they got it.

(09-19-2017 11:18 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  A few thoughts:

1. Harry's a straight shooter. I've known Harry off and on over the years and respect his work, both in sports and news. He's probably the last guy in the newsroom that would be on the take, and he's earned the benefit of a half-dozen doubts. Quibble if you will about what he writes, but he's always been on the level, and I don't see him endangering his well-earned reputation for whatever ducats Liberty might be willing to provide (aside: Would Liberty be willing to pay for positive content from media outlets? I would say "probably not" but I also wouldn't need a fainting couch if it turned out that they were trying to buy better/more positive coverage).

2. Liberty is an important story from an ODU perspective. I think a lot of us expected ECU or JMU to be the big regional rival in G5, but ECU is in a different conference and JMU is forever monitoring, so Liberty it is. They have interest in a long-term athletic relationship with ODU while competing with them for recruits and regional media coverage. Liberty's ups and downs indirectly, and in some cases directly, affect ODU.

3. Liberty is an interesting story regardless its ODU connection. They're the canary in the coal mine for FCS programs moving to FBS independence. They'll clear a path for other would-be move-ups like JMU or North Dakota State, or they'll succeed in a way that can't be duplicated because of their unique situation, or they'll fail. But their transition to FBS is more interesting than any other FCS call-up's story (yes, even including ODU) and they're a far different breed of FBS independent than the others too. That they're a three-hour drive from Norfolk makes them a reasonable target for a story or three.

4. Hampton Roads has a strong conservative Christian influence. Regent, CBN, the ACLJ. I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'd be willing to wager that there's a good number of people here who are pulling for Liberty because of, not despite, their political/religious bent.

That said, I think Harry missed an important aspect of the CUSA/Liberty discussion — a Liberty add would bring CUSA to 15 full members at a time when there's no incentive to have more than 10. Even if you were OK with an expansive league that treats the two divisions as de facto conferences, you'd need at least a 16th school, and there's nobody out there who a) moves the needle and b) would accept. At this point I don't think even the Sun Belt schools would move, if for no other reason than why pay exit and entrance fees for a lateral move? So you're looking at a call-up or maybe New Mexico State. Hey, maybe the AAC can let us know where they got those P6 stickers!

I will say this also: It is very telling that the presence of interracial couples was used to describe Liberty as a more tolerant school than people realize. In 2017.

As for why Liberty's religious identification or political leanings matter in the context of athletics: They don't, at least to the preponderance of fans, athletes, coaches and staff. But conference alignment decisions rest in the hands of school presidents, who take the whole "institutional fit" thing seriously. There's a reason the Big East is exclusively private and almost exclusively Catholic. Or why Tulane got into the AAC when its on-field exploits are more worthy of the Atlantic Sun. Or why Wake Forest will be in the ACC as long as it so desires, no matter how much the Realignment Risk players on the main board want to make it not so.

Liberty's going to be a weird fit for pretty much any FBS conference, plus unlike most schools that (trigger warning!) evolved over decades if not centuries, Liberty sort of exploded onto the scene thanks in large part to their burgeoning online program. They're doing great now, but is that sustainable? And if it's not, does Liberty bring enough without it? Or do they become the academic equivalent of pets.com? University presidents are risk-adverse creatures, and they may be reluctant to embrace the new-money neighbors, no matter how they got it.

Solid post Cyniclone. You're OK for a half VCU fan.

(09-19-2017 10:48 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(09-19-2017 10:30 AM)webster Wrote:  Call me crazy, but what the heck does it matter which political candidate Liberty's president supported? At the end of the day this should only be about the health and outlook of their athletic program. Add to that their regional proximity to a few CUSA schools and their acceptance should have been a no-brainer.

Really? No brainer? As others have pointed out, their athletic history is not really that stellar. Could be called bad even. CUSA is not looking for a replacement. We not sitting at an uneven number. Do you all seriously believe Liberty brings enough to the table to take our ranks to 16? Now ODU gets the advantage of an instate partner but look at it from USM's or La Tech's point of view or FIU/FAU. Liberty? Really? I'm at a loss. There's plenty of reasons to objectively reject Liberty's application.

I've got nothing against FIU,FAU, or the Texas squads. Proximity plays a big role. But the other key thing is upside. I just believe in theirs more. They've got the money, facilities, and seemingly fan support. I can honestly see them attracting better athletic talent than they have in the past. So yea, I'd welcome them. Add them and whoever else to make it even. Our money pool is a joke anyway. Might as well add a couple programs to help with travel. Even if it means somehow dropping two current members (and yes I know that is easier said than done). If it comes to dropping, then I think we know who.

(09-19-2017 11:24 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(09-19-2017 11:18 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  A few thoughts:

1. Harry's a straight shooter. I've known Harry off and on over the years and respect his work, both in sports and news. He's probably the last guy in the newsroom that would be on the take, and he's earned the benefit of a half-dozen doubts. Quibble if you will about what he writes, but he's always been on the level, and I don't see him endangering his well-earned reputation for whatever ducats Liberty might be willing to provide (aside: Would Liberty be willing to pay for positive content from media outlets? I would say "probably not" but I also wouldn't need a fainting couch if it turned out that they were trying to buy better/more positive coverage).

2. Liberty is an important story from an ODU perspective. I think a lot of us expected ECU or JMU to be the big regional rival in G5, but ECU is in a different conference and JMU is forever monitoring, so Liberty it is. They have interest in a long-term athletic relationship with ODU while competing with them for recruits and regional media coverage. Liberty's ups and downs indirectly, and in some cases directly, affect ODU.

3. Liberty is an interesting story regardless its ODU connection. They're the canary in the coal mine for FCS programs moving to FBS independence. They'll clear a path for other would-be move-ups like JMU or North Dakota State, or they'll succeed in a way that can't be duplicated because of their unique situation, or they'll fail. But their transition to FBS is more interesting than any other FCS call-up's story (yes, even including ODU) and they're a far different breed of FBS independent than the others too. That they're a three-hour drive from Norfolk makes them a reasonable target for a story or three.

4. Hampton Roads has a strong conservative Christian influence. Regent, CBN, the ACLJ. I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'd be willing to wager that there's a good number of people here who are pulling for Liberty because of, not despite, their political/religious bent.

That said, I think Harry missed an important aspect of the CUSA/Liberty discussion — a Liberty add would bring CUSA to 15 full members at a time when there's no incentive to have more than 10. Even if you were OK with an expansive league that treats the two divisions as de facto conferences, you'd need at least a 16th school, and there's nobody out there who a) moves the needle and b) would accept. At this point I don't think even the Sun Belt schools would move, if for no other reason than why pay exit and entrance fees for a lateral move? So you're looking at a call-up or maybe New Mexico State. Hey, maybe the AAC can let us know where they got those P6 stickers!

I will say this also: It is very telling that the presence of interracial couples was used to describe Liberty as a more tolerant school than people realize. In 2017.

As for why Liberty's religious identification or political leanings matter in the context of athletics: They don't, at least to the preponderance of fans, athletes, coaches and staff. But conference alignment decisions rest in the hands of school presidents, who take the whole "institutional fit" thing seriously. There's a reason the Big East is exclusively private and almost exclusively Catholic. Or why Tulane got into the AAC when its on-field exploits are more worthy of the Atlantic Sun. Or why Wake Forest will be in the ACC as long as it so desires, no matter how much the Realignment Risk players on the main board want to make it not so.

Liberty's going to be a weird fit for pretty much any FBS conference, plus unlike most schools that (trigger warning!) evolved over decades if not centuries, Liberty sort of exploded onto the scene thanks in large part to their burgeoning online program. They're doing great now, but is that sustainable? And if it's not, does Liberty bring enough without it? Or do they become the academic equivalent of pets.com? University presidents are risk-adverse creatures, and they may be reluctant to embrace the new-money neighbors, no matter how they got it.

Solid post Cyniclone. You're OK for a half VCU fan.

Agreed.

The real issue here is Falwell's tweet. It merely assumes something that, as far as I know, was never mentioned in Liberty's rejection. The point that mturn, myself, and others are making is that not all who object to including Liberty do so on theological or political grounds.

For the record, I'm probably more politically Conservative than Liberty (Donald Trump is not a conservative, but that's another whole ball of wax).

Theologically I'm more Conservative than Liberty (when a Southern Baptist school invites multiple Mormons to speak and their commencement addresses, their agenda is anything but theological).

My question is, what exactly does Liberty bring to the table in terms of it's athletic program? Money and it's own TV network? Nice, but I prefer ESPN3 and competitive teams. Liberty's athletic program is simply unattractive on it's own merits. Using politics or theology as an excuse it simply lame.

We should have added them because THAT Liberty is