(09-20-2017 01:47 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  

(09-20-2017 12:03 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(09-20-2017 11:51 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Here's a list of DI - no football schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC...l_programs

If we were in the upper midwest or northeast or west coast there would be much better conference options. Realistically, the Sun Belt would be our option. Or maybe being an island in the A-10.

So let's fix football and try and get in the AAC or MWC.

Not that it affects your point, but that list is either incomplete or its definition is ambiguous. For example, Dallas Baptist is missing.

It was on the internet. It has to be true!

Seriously, if my reference/medical librarian wife knew I posted a wikipedia article as a reference, I'd be in a lot of trouble. :-)

Nah, you're good:
https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4...8900a.html

"Let's fix football and get into the AAC or MWC."
That's the smartest and most direct summation on this board. I agree 100%. I believe the AD would as well and Administration too.
Like studying to create a "prepared mind" for intellectual work, we need to create a "prepared school" for when the opportunity window opens again...it likely will but only for a brief moment and only to those schools and Athletic Depts who are PREPARED. Go Owls.

"Let's fix football and get into the AAC or MWC."
Yes, I hate it when I hear discussion of dropping football or dropping D1 athletics (I can't imagine what I'd think if I'd actually participated in the football program and wasn't just a fan). Not that I think that would be the end of the world. I'd still love Rice and there's lots of fun little athletics conferences around the country (like the MIAC here in Minnesota), and they add nicely to the student experience. I think higher level athletics add more though, and it seems a one way street: drop down and it would be hell (as in, never going to happen) to get back. I'd only drop as a last, last, last, last, last resort (like a couldn't pay your bills situation), and I don't think we're near that. We should hang in there, because you never know when the worm is going to turn. I remember Army being hopeless. I remember Navy being hopeless. I remember Northwestern being hopeless. I remember Wisconsin being a dumpy program with a dead stadium scene. Even programs like Notre Dame have been down (albeit not for 40 years). You've got to be trying though.

"Take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly, and try another. But by all means, try something." – Franklin D. Roosevelt

Baliff isn't working right now and changing the coach is the biggest lever you have. End of the season, I'd make a change almost for sure. Everybody likes the guy, but college football coach isn't a lifer position. Shake his hand and say: thanks for the great work, but we're trying something new.

That said, I agree with the idea that basketball and baseball should be the keys. In business, they say that too many people focus on trying to turn around under-performing divisions rather than running with what's working. Baseball is the closest we have to being a power program; that should be the emphasis. And basketball is the place where a school like Rice has the best chance to progress.

(09-20-2017 09:39 PM)allerretour Wrote:  That said, I agree with the idea that basketball and baseball should be the keys. In business, they say that too many people focus on trying to turn around under-performing divisions rather than running with what's working. Baseball is the closest we have to being a power program; that should be the emphasis. And basketball is the place where a school like Rice has the best chance to progress.

Unfortunately for us, no one cares about baseball. It's a nice add-in for a conference if we already had a great football or basketball program, but on it's own it is not worth much. Wish that were different. Football and basketball alone hold the keys to national relevance in college athletics.

My order of preference for Rice:
(1) Try harder, spend more, demand competence. Shoot for the P5, with at least getting to the MWC or AAC as a fallback option.
(2) Give football independence a try, despite the many difficulties it would present, especially if that would help Rice ease into a better conference for other sports. I'm not trying to rehash the positives or negatives (or impossibilities) of this path. But if this was an option, I would rather go with it then stick in CUSA.
(3) Continue doing what we are doing. While I don't like the approach, I would still rather see Rice with a D1 FBS football team than no team at all, or dropping to a lower division (FCS, D II, or D III).
(4) Drop football to a lower division, or drop it completely. This has no appeal to me, even if there might be a financial argument for taking this path instead of our current path. Ultimately, football is somewhat of a loss leader for Rice. Fewer customers means a bigger loss (the difference between #1, #2, and #3 above). But even mediocre-to-bad football has some appeal to sports fans like me. It just hurts to not see the possibilities and opportunities maximized.

(09-21-2017 10:57 AM)mrbig Wrote:  My order of preference for Rice:
(1) Try harder, spend more, demand competence. Shoot for the P5, with at least getting to the MWC or AAC as a fallback option.
(2) Continue doing what we are doing. While I don't like the approach, I would still rather see Rice with a D1 FBS football team than no team at all, or dropping to a lower division (FCS, D II, or D III). I would rather give football independence a try, despite the many difficulties it would present, especially if that would help Rice ease into a better conference for other sports.
(3) Drop football to a lower division, or drop it completely. This has no appeal to me, even if there might be a financial argument for taking this path instead of our current path. Ultimately, football is somewhat of a loss leader for Rice. Fewer customers means a bigger loss (the difference between #1 and #2 above). But even mediocre-to-bad football has some appeal to sports fans like me. It just hurts to not see the possibilities and opportunities maximized.

Agree with all save for a modification to #4-- no way I'd consider going to the FCS and D2 por D3 in football, as it would not only not save us much money, but it would adversely effect all our other sports. We either stay in the the FBS and fix the problems with the program, or we drop football altogether.

(09-21-2017 10:57 AM)mrbig Wrote:  My order of preference for Rice:
(1) Try harder, spend more, demand competence. Shoot for the P5, with at least getting to the MWC or AAC as a fallback option.
(2) Give football independence a try, despite the many difficulties it would present, especially if that would help Rice ease into a better conference for other sports. I'm not trying to rehash the positives or negatives (or impossibilities) of this path. But if this was an option, I would rather go with it then stick in CUSA.
(3) Continue doing what we are doing. While I don't like the approach, I would still rather see Rice with a D1 FBS football team than no team at all, or dropping to a lower division (FCS, D II, or D III).
(4) Drop football to a lower division, or drop it completely. This has no appeal to me, even if there might be a financial argument for taking this path instead of our current path. Ultimately, football is somewhat of a loss leader for Rice. Fewer customers means a bigger loss (the difference between #1, #2, and #3 above). But even mediocre-to-bad football has some appeal to sports fans like me. It just hurts to not see the possibilities and opportunities maximized.

I agree - I would like to see us try #1 (which I personally think calls for #2, but yes, let's leave that aside for the moment). Although I do certainly wonder if the sport of football has a viable future due to CTE.

Failing that, I would like to see us drop football (agreeing with others that FCS/D2 are not better options) but only as part of a concerted plan to stay in Division I, subsidize our athletic program to no less extent than we now do, and stay or become national leaders in the rest of our sports and to add sports we are missing. We do not *need* G5 football to do that because it is not a "loss leader" *for us.* It is only half of that formulation - the loss part. It leads to nothing.

The revenue G5/CUSA football generates here is not enough to miss or to make it nonviable for this rich, private school to have a decent athletic program. Sure, at Old Dominion, Marshall, Colorado State, East Carolina, UH, and plenty of other large student-body schools (especially with relatively little local competition for the entertainment dollar), they can get 30K+ a game to watch them play similar competition, and they absolutely do need that revenue (plus mandatory student fees in the hundreds of dollars per student, in most instances) to fund the rest of their athletic program. We, on the other hand, do not. Because of our institutional wealth, we are clearly willing to spend some considerable but of course finite amount *regardless of revenue* to have a Division I athletic program. I just see no point in wasting part of that finite amount - the lion's share of it, in fact; which could be better used by other sports - on G5/CUSA football which is a meaningless product that Rice students/alums/fans have clearly rejected.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-827879.html

When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

(09-21-2017 03:12 PM)garthmanuel Wrote:  When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

http://www.ricefootball.net/ricefield.htm

(09-21-2017 03:12 PM)garthmanuel Wrote:  When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

Before Rice spent $31.5 million dollars on a new EZF, perhaps your argument had some merit. But I can't imagine a situation where HRS is abandoned, given the recent investment in the Patterson EZF. And I think the product on the field is a much larger liability than the stadium. As someone who has attended a some games at Tulane's new stadium, I think putting a quality product on the field is much more determinative of crowd size than having a new stadium (with the slight exception that Tulane moving their stadium from off-campus to on-campus clearly has some effect).

(09-21-2017 03:54 PM)JSA Wrote:  

(09-21-2017 03:12 PM)garthmanuel Wrote:  When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

http://www.ricefootball.net/ricefield.htm

What massive commercial real estate project? I know they are updating Rice village since we bought the lease out but I haven't heard of anything else. At least now we treat Rice village like it's associated with the university (there's an athletics block party there tomorrow). The last decade or so the association had only been in name. Lots of people shop/live in Rice village and have never been to a Rice football game because the product on the field isn't any good.

(09-21-2017 04:47 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(09-21-2017 03:54 PM)JSA Wrote:  

(09-21-2017 03:12 PM)garthmanuel Wrote:  When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

http://www.ricefootball.net/ricefield.htm

What massive commercial real estate project? I know they are updating Rice village since we bought the lease out but I haven't heard of anything else. At least now we treat Rice village like it's associated with the university (there's an athletics block party there tomorrow). The last decade or so the association had only been in name. Lots of people shop/live in Rice village and have never been to a Rice football game because the product on the field isn't any good.

The school's master developer has plans for a large apartment tower with associated retail (potentially a grocer) for the northwest corner of University and Greenbriar. A local developer was out looking for equity partners last year for the project but the sluggish Houston economy temporarily shelved the project best I can tell. There are plans for a second tower that can be anything from office to hotel just a bit further north. That site is not as far along.

(09-21-2017 04:30 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(09-21-2017 03:12 PM)garthmanuel Wrote:  When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

Before AN ALUM [not Rice] spent $31.5 million dollars on a new EZF, perhaps your argument had some merit. But I can't imagine a situation where HRS is abandoned, given the recent investment in the Patterson EZF. And I think the product on the field is a much larger liability than the stadium. As someone who has attended a some games at Tulane's new stadium, I think putting a quality product on the field is much more determinative of crowd size than having a new stadium (with the slight exception that Tulane moving their stadium from off-campus to on-campus clearly has some effect).

FIFY

(09-21-2017 05:33 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(09-21-2017 04:30 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(09-21-2017 03:12 PM)garthmanuel Wrote:  When will it be time to replace Rice Stadium with something that is more compatible with the current state of the program? A long-term "future of Rice Athletics" discussion could include discussing a new combo football/soccer/track facility at the site of the current soccer stadium.

A giant, empty stadium that gets used 10 times a year between High School and Rice games is pretty much a waste. It's also a complete dump that sucks the life out of both players and fans alike (I have been both). The land under the stadium is very valuable and is across the street from the massive commercial real estate project that is planned for University and Greenbriar. Proceeds from a land lease could help offset the cost of a new facility.

The stadium has a great history and everyone knows all about the sightlines, but if we are being honest with ourselves Rice Stadium is a liability. I know it's not feasible right now and that the funds will be very hard to come by no matter when it happens, but Tulane, SMU, UH, Stanford and many of our peer group teams have new(ish) facilities that have helped show commitment to Division 1 athletics.

Before AN ALUM [not Rice] spent $31.5 million dollars on a new EZF, perhaps your argument had some merit. But I can't imagine a situation where HRS is abandoned, given the recent investment in the Patterson EZF. And I think the product on the field is a much larger liability than the stadium. As someone who has attended a some games at Tulane's new stadium, I think putting a quality product on the field is much more determinative of crowd size than having a new stadium (with the slight exception that Tulane moving their stadium from off-campus to on-campus clearly has some effect).

FIFY

While it is true that Patterson funded the EZF, it's not without university permission. If the plan really was to tear down HRS in the foreseeable future, he probably could have been convinced to make minor renovations to the prior facilities as a stopgap and use the remainder as an initial deposit towards a new stadium. The fact that the Board authorized the EZF suggests that they did not and do not intend to tear down HRS soon.

Especially since Brian Patterson is now a member of the BOT. Unlikely he would support throwing away his money.

If we do away with HRS, then we should do away with D1 football and have D3 or no football at the track/soccer stadium. A smaller stadium would just make it obvious that we gave uo on having meaningful football in the future. Wish they would not put a commercial development at Greenbriar and University since we might need it for the University in the future.

I suspect that the long range plan is that HRS will be replaced by a multi purpose stadium with a track et al and the current track/soccer facility will be the future expansion site for non-athletics. Thus Patterson would not be a white elephant. Perfect for D-3........

Where is this "massive real estate project" allegedly going to be built, exactly?

NW or SW corner of Greenbriar & University?