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UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
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chargeradio Online
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Post: #21
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
UMKC does nothing for the Summt's compliance with Division I membership criteria. Since the Summit doesn't sponsor football, it needs six schools who play men's soccer and baseball. Up to two affiliates may be used to satisfy one of the requirements.

Men's Soccer:
Omaha, Denver, Oral Roberts, Fort Wayne, Western Illinois, Eastern Illinois (affiliate)

Baseball:
Omaha, Oral Roberts, Fort Wayne, Western Illinois, North Dakota State, South Dakota State

The Summit losing Fort Wayne would be very costly. Even if the Summit were to add Eastern Illinois as a full member, it would still need a soccer affiliate like Central Arkansas.

Of course the Summit could quit sponsoring men's soccer if it added Eastern Illinois or Northern Colorado, but it would have to split from or takeover the MVFC, which may not sit well with the MVC schools.

UMKC adding baseball is the only way they get back in the Summit, as they become a straight up replacement for Fort Wayne.
09-16-2017 07:09 PM
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Clarity Online
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Post: #22
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
(09-16-2017 07:05 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(09-15-2017 02:10 PM)Clarity Wrote:  Yeah this isn't surprising. They have been having some serious budget problems for a while and have had budget cuts and layoffs.. They have never found success, not in the Summit and not in the WAC. D2 seems much more likely than D1.

No one drops down to D2 from D1, so that is not going to happen. This is about money, as it always is. They were told to cut their athletic budget from $14.7 million to $13.2 million. So everything has to be on the table, but the reality is they need to just make the cuts and move on. The cuts are tough, but there is no choice.

It really comes down to choice of conference. UMKC has been very open about wanting an invite from the MVC. The MVC has been making noise about expanding to 12. The Horizon has been talking about moving to 12. These are moves that could affect the Summit. Any school jumping into the Summit has to know that the conference could lose schools.

The wise move for UMKC is to stay where they are at and continue their open campaign for a slot in the MVC. There is no point leaving the WAC for a Summit that could implode. Conference moves are costly and any move to the Summit could be short term. The Summit has a $1 million exit fee, so a short term move makes little sense. UMKC may be also asked to add baseball. For the MVC sure, for the Summit no.

There are so many dumb things here I don't even know where to start.

1. Centenary dropped from D1. Savannah State literally this year is dropping to D2. It's rare but yes it does happen.

2. UMKC's chancellor has absolutely no interest in athletics. "We are spending significant money on athletics that could be spent on the academic core..." What does that tell you? They would scrap it all if they could.

3. The Valley and Horizon have no interest in UMKC. UMKC has had 3 chances at the Valley now. They do not want them. They didn't even get a visit this spring.

4. The WAC is much more unstable than the Summit. No D1 AD in their right mind would move to the WAC but would for the Summit.

5. They can't just add baseball because of Title IX. Plus why the hell would they add another program when they are making cuts?

6. UMKC left the Summit because they thought they could win in the WAC. They don't want them back. They also need a men's baseball and soccer school. 0% chance.

7. Their WAC contract is up at the end of next year. They wouldn't be putting out statements like that if they weren't leaving. They are gone.

8. They have never been a good athletic program especially in basketball. It makes sense to drop down.

You are in your constant mindset of fantasy realignment that will not happen. You are LARPing as an AD. They are going to wind up in D2, D3 or NAIA by this time next year. 90%.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2017 08:03 PM by Clarity.)
09-16-2017 07:42 PM
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rooinblue Offline
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Post: #23
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
"They are going to wind up in D2, D3 or NAIA by this time next year. 90%."

C,mon Clarity, sack up and write it's a 100% UMKC is dropping from D-1.

Don't wimp out and say 90%.

Nothing more manly that making hyperbolic statements and then giving yourself an out in the same breath.

The Summit just had a team leave. The WAC has not lost a team in 4-5 years. The Summit had at least another two teams try to leave. The Summit is more stable?

The recent answers from ACT test participants in Missouri show that UMKC is the #4 college destination of Missouri HS seniors.
I understand that is faint praise, but it is the highest UMKC has ever placed with Missouri HS seniors. The KC Star (KC newspaper) wrote an article describing the opportunity UMKC has to raise its' standing within the state due to the downturn of interest in Missouri-Columbia.
With the improvements UMKC has made across the board and the drop in Mizzou's standing with the state's population, UMKC has a chance to make some strides toward increased respectability, with the folks at home.
I don't think any long term thinking chancellor is going to drop athletics down a level at this time and diminish the chance UMKC has to improve its' local and national standing.

By the way, it is an "interim" chancellor that made the statement in your point #2. People like to make points with their friends. I imagine this statement will lower her chances of becoming the permanent chancellor.
09-17-2017 05:16 PM
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #24
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
Clarity nailing it left and right lately. He is so right on with his post about UMKC.
09-17-2017 05:35 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
(09-17-2017 05:35 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  Clarity nailing it left and right lately. He is so right on with his post about UMKC.

Let's see where Clarity is right:

1. Centenary dropped from D1 and Savannah State has announced they will drop to down to D2. He is technically correct about both anyyd he is also correct that it is rare. So rare that those are the only two examples out there. The problem is that these schools are not comparable to UMKC. Centenary has an enrollment of 630 students and an athletic budget of $1.4 million at the D3 level. UMKC has an enrollment of 17,000 and a 2017-2018 athletic budget of $13.2 million. They are not comparable. Savannah State is an HBC school playing football, basketball and baseball on a $6.5 million athletic budget. That is too little invested to be at the D1 level and again, not comparable to UMKC. The alumni is pushing back on the drop, so it may not be a done deal. That is it. Sorry Clarity, but Centenary and Savannah State are not relevant to UMKC.

2. The UMKC Chancellor asked the question, "What is the right amount of money to spend on athletics?" She added "Where does the money come from?" What's the best strategy and return on our investment?" Basic questions that any responsible Chancellor should be asking. Sorry Clarity, she was not talking about dropping down in athletics or dropping athletics.

3. The Valley may have no interest in UMKC, but only the MVC knows that. When Creighton left in 2013, they visited UMKC but chose Loyola. They seemed to be looking for markets. In 2017 with the departure of Wichita State, they did not talk to UMKC and chose Valpo. They needed a quality program and Valpo is an hour outside of Chicago. I have no idea if UMKC would be a candidate for expansion in the future but I am sure that Clarity does not know, either.

4. The WAC is more stable than the Summit. Clarity is just wrong. The WAC will have 10 baseball schools and 12 men's soccer schools in 2018. The Summit will have
six baseball schools and six men's soccer schools, the bare minimum. Both will have nine basketball schools. The basketball attendance is better in the WAC. The RPI was higher this past season. GCU, NMSU and Seattle have larger basketball budgets than any school in the Summit. The WAC has better markets. It is not close, especially with Fort Wayne campaigning for the Horizon.

5. I agree with Clarity on baseball. I don't think UMKC has any interest in adding baseball for a variety of reasons.

6. I don't really think the Summit wants UMKC back and I don't think they want to go back. I agree with Clarity.

7. The WAC contract is up? I don't know where that is coming from but I can't see either party being concerned about a contract, if one exists. The WAC does not have an exit fee, so any contract would be pointless.

8. The fact that UMKC has never been good at basketball does not equate to dropping down. UMKC is an R2 research school, rated in the Forbes 660 list of best schools in the country. Division 1 is prestige and schools sell it as competing at the highest level of college athletics. It is a marketing tool. They are not dropping down to D2 and I will put a 100 per cent prediction on that.

UMKC just cut their athletic budget from $14.7 million to $13.2 million. Tough cuts, but other schools get by on less. Southeast Missouri State is D1 and their recent athletic budget was $12.6 million. They were spending less and they play football, basketball and baseball. UMKC will survive and so Clarity's ridiculous doomsday prediction for UMKC athletics is laughable.
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2017 11:06 PM by SoCalBobcat78.)
09-18-2017 11:05 PM
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Clarity Online
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Post: #26
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
So your whole premise is that a school facing budget problems is going to stay in the WAC known for it's insane travel budget. Why in the world would they do that? It's not comparable to any situation because of the ridiculous travel especially Southeast Missouri State. Due to that reason alone they are gone. That is the laughable part. Thinking the WAC is at all stable is also laughable. Any school in the WAC gets an offer to join another conference they are bolting so fast. GCU was very close to joining the Horizon, I know someone with ties to their athletic department and that's what they said. NMSU goes with them as a travel partner and there the WAC is dead. No current D1 school is even going to entertain an offer from the WAC. If the WAC was stable at all they wouldn't have problems attracting another current D1 school but they can't because it is unstable and everyone knows that. Other conferences have no problem at all attracting members, schools would at least think about a Summit offer especially now with the 4 Dakotas finally united. 2 years from now the WAC will be gone as it is now, maybe even a year from now and I feel pretty confident in saying that.
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2017 11:50 PM by Clarity.)
09-18-2017 11:43 PM
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Post: #27
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
(09-18-2017 11:05 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(09-17-2017 05:35 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  Clarity nailing it left and right lately. He is so right on with his post about UMKC.

Let's see where Clarity is right:

1. Centenary dropped from D1 and Savannah State has announced they will drop to down to D2. He is technically correct about both anyyd he is also correct that it is rare. So rare that those are the only two examples out there. The problem is that these schools are not comparable to UMKC. Centenary has an enrollment of 630 students and an athletic budget of $1.4 million at the D3 level. UMKC has an enrollment of 17,000 and a 2017-2018 athletic budget of $13.2 million. They are not comparable. Savannah State is an HBC school playing football, basketball and baseball on a $6.5 million athletic budget. That is too little invested to be at the D1 level and again, not comparable to UMKC. The alumni is pushing back on the drop, so it may not be a done deal. That is it. Sorry Clarity, but Centenary and Savannah State are not relevant to UMKC.

2. The UMKC Chancellor asked the question, "What is the right amount of money to spend on athletics?" She added "Where does the money come from?" What's the best strategy and return on our investment?" Basic questions that any responsible Chancellor should be asking. Sorry Clarity, she was not talking about dropping down in athletics or dropping athletics.

3. The Valley may have no interest in UMKC, but only the MVC knows that. When Creighton left in 2013, they visited UMKC but chose Loyola. They seemed to be looking for markets. In 2017 with the departure of Wichita State, they did not talk to UMKC and chose Valpo. They needed a quality program and Valpo is an hour outside of Chicago. I have no idea if UMKC would be a candidate for expansion in the future but I am sure that Clarity does not know, either.

4. The WAC is more stable than the Summit. Clarity is just wrong. The WAC will have 10 baseball schools and 12 men's soccer schools in 2018. The Summit will have
six baseball schools and six men's soccer schools, the bare minimum. Both will have nine basketball schools. The basketball attendance is better in the WAC. The RPI was higher this past season. GCU, NMSU and Seattle have larger basketball budgets than any school in the Summit. The WAC has better markets. It is not close, especially with Fort Wayne campaigning for the Horizon. (The WAC may have better markets on paper, but they are not benefiting the conference or those members that reside in those markets. One way we know these markets are not beneficial. No TV contract for the conference.)

5. I agree with Clarity on baseball. I don't think UMKC has any interest in adding baseball for a variety of reasons.

6. I don't really think the Summit wants UMKC back and I don't think they want to go back. I agree with Clarity.

7. The WAC contract is up? I don't know where that is coming from but I can't see either party being concerned about a contract, if one exists. The WAC does not have an exit fee, so any contract would be pointless. (All members were given 5 year contracts and things they need to do to bring there facilities up to snuff per the WAC. Also the contract of 5 years was so the WAC or the members could allow an amicable separation if a member or the conference wants one. In desperation to keep the WAC alive the exit fees were waved. Only NMSU and SU would have to pay them as they joined before the WAC became a Basketball conference.)

8. The fact that UMKC has never been good at basketball does not equate to dropping down. UMKC is an R2 research school, rated in the Forbes 660 list of best schools in the country. Division 1 is prestige and schools sell it as competing at the highest level of college athletics. It is a marketing tool. They are not dropping down to D2 and I will put a 100 per cent prediction on that.

UMKC just cut their athletic budget from $14.7 million to $13.2 million. Tough cuts, but other schools get by on less. Southeast Missouri State is D1 and their recent athletic budget was $12.6 million. They were spending less and they play football, basketball and baseball. UMKC will survive and so Clarity's ridiculous doomsday prediction for UMKC athletics is laughable.
I put more weight in what Clarity says than you, because you have been spouting off that you have a grasp of what is going on in the WAC and with its members before your school was in the WAC, when your school was in the WAC and have continued to do so long after your school left the WAC. Most of what you say has not come true. So why should we believe you?
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2017 12:52 PM by CrimsonPhantom.)
09-19-2017 12:47 PM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
CP, so you believe Clarity is right? He believes the WAC is done in a year or two. Is that what you believe? Or that UMKC is D2 in a year? Only one school has ever completed the transition to a drop from D1, that being Centenary.

I have no idea why the WAC does not have a TV contract, I just know they have the markets in place to make it happen. The Summit has the four Dakota schools, Fort Wayne and Western Illinois. None of them in the top 100. They have one TV market in the top 60, that being Denver. So the WAC has better markets, more upside.

The WAC did not have an exit fee before these schools joined. UTSA, Texas State, San Jose State, Utah State and Denver did not pay an exit fee, for example.

Obviously, you have been keeping a list of things you don't like about me or my opinions. I have been right and I have been wrong. I don't think anyone has been perfect on this board or the Scout board, but I try to keep it to a discussion. I am not the one hurling the insults.

I have been a fan of the WAC for years, before my school joined. I will be here when CBU joins as well. I plan on getting season tickets for basketball in the 2018-2019 season since I live six miles from the school. They have a terrific new arena and I believe the WAC will still be around in 2018.
09-19-2017 07:44 PM
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NMSUPistolPete Offline
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Post: #29
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
I think the WAC is in better shape now than a few years ago (after the mass exodus). UMKC might have jumped the gun by join the WAC. But I think they felt the Summit was on the verge of collapse when they made the move; and had hoped a few of the other Summit schools would have made the same move at the time. But the addition of Denver and the return of Oral Roberts revitalized the Summit.

Foot print and academic wise, the Summit is a more tight knit conference. However, over the last few season the WAC has proven to be a more upwardly moving conference. Currently, the WAC is a better basketball conference than the Big West and the Big Sky. The large cities the WAC resides in actually help with travel. Unless a conference can be a bus league like the Big West, schools need to be near major airports for accessibility. So, I am not convinced the Summit would be much cheaper for UMKC. IMHO
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2017 09:13 PM by NMSUPistolPete.)
09-19-2017 09:12 PM
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RoosHouse Offline
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Post: #30
RE: UMKC task force could call for them dropping to D2
(09-16-2017 07:42 PM)Clarity Wrote:  
(09-16-2017 07:05 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(09-15-2017 02:10 PM)Clarity Wrote:  Yeah this isn't surprising. They have been having some serious budget problems for a while and have had budget cuts and layoffs.. They have never found success, not in the Summit and not in the WAC. D2 seems much more likely than D1.

No one drops down to D2 from D1, so that is not going to happen. This is about money, as it always is. They were told to cut their athletic budget from $14.7 million to $13.2 million. So everything has to be on the table, but the reality is they need to just make the cuts and move on. The cuts are tough, but there is no choice.

It really comes down to choice of conference. UMKC has been very open about wanting an invite from the MVC. The MVC has been making noise about expanding to 12. The Horizon has been talking about moving to 12. These are moves that could affect the Summit. Any school jumping into the Summit has to know that the conference could lose schools.

The wise move for UMKC is to stay where they are at and continue their open campaign for a slot in the MVC. There is no point leaving the WAC for a Summit that could implode. Conference moves are costly and any move to the Summit could be short term. The Summit has a $1 million exit fee, so a short term move makes little sense. UMKC may be also asked to add baseball. For the MVC sure, for the Summit no.

There are so many dumb things here I don't even know where to start.

1. Centenary dropped from D1. Savannah State literally this year is dropping to D2. It's rare but yes it does happen.

2. UMKC's chancellor has absolutely no interest in athletics. "We are spending significant money on athletics that could be spent on the academic core..." What does that tell you? They would scrap it all if they could.

3. The Valley and Horizon have no interest in UMKC. UMKC has had 3 chances at the Valley now. They do not want them. They didn't even get a visit this spring.

4. The WAC is much more unstable than the Summit. No D1 AD in their right mind would move to the WAC but would for the Summit.

5. They can't just add baseball because of Title IX. Plus why the hell would they add another program when they are making cuts?

6. UMKC left the Summit because they thought they could win in the WAC. They don't want them back. They also need a men's baseball and soccer school. 0% chance.

7. Their WAC contract is up at the end of next year. They wouldn't be putting out statements like that if they weren't leaving. They are gone.

8. They have never been a good athletic program especially in basketball. It makes sense to drop down.

You are in your constant mindset of fantasy realignment that will not happen. You are LARPing as an AD. They are going to wind up in D2, D3 or NAIA by this time next year. 90%.

Hey Clarity I know you are wrong right now. Had a good time in the wac. Its been fun guys. Wish we would have hosted the tournament. Kansas City is a hidden gem. I'm out.
09-24-2017 11:57 AM
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