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JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
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Longhorn Offline
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Post: #51
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
(09-15-2017 09:04 AM)olddawg Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 06:53 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 05:51 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:58 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  If seeing JMU enrollments decline, budgets seriously impacted, and academic reputation lowered is the price required to pay for playing an ACC team at BFS count me out.

Assume you are alluding to ODU. Obviously, noone wants lowered academics, and I don't see the connection there. ODU athletic contributioms are up, though the Cox bill is making it difficult for them to fund a new stadium the way they would like. They are slipping academically for reasons unrelated to football, and athletics are taking a financial hit due to decreasing enrollments. My understanding is some other schools (NSU?) have had the same predicament.

I am much more disturbed/concerned about JMU's apparent need to maintain an increased enrollment resulting in lowered admission standards, including dropping the SAT. The gap between JMU and W&M/UVa academically seems to have grown from when I attended, and that really does worry me. If anything, I'd argue we need to increase exposure and "national" student recruiting to improve this. I am discouraged that JMU appears to have slipped to where some outsiders perceive us to be at the level of GMU and CNU. I'd fault rapid growth of the student body without an equivalent growth in applicants combined with the pressure to "diversify" at any cost. JMU should be working fervently to attract the very best students,and part of that includes attracting students beyond the northeast corridor.

Methinks you are commenting about things regarding the JMU application and admissions process in which you have little real inside information about. Let me reassure you that JMU always works "fervently" to attract the best students, and the institution is well managed in this area. What JMU lacks is scholarship money, and the needle to recruit "the best" won't move until that issue is significantly improved.

And yes, my post was a reference to ODU's situation, and their declining enrollment was directly related to the big cut they were forced to make to their athletic budget. If ODU continues to miss their enrollment targets expect more of the same as it impacts budgets all through their university. [/b]
You have made reference to this several times before. While I have no doubt it is a contributing factor, the schools we want to compete with for students have always had a significant financial advantage to leverage. Are you saying that only recently have they attempted to use it? I'm only noticing the gap widening (as mentioned by JMURocks) in the last 20 years, the same period where I noticed schools with historically lesser academic profiles shoot past us.

03-lmfao Other universities have not "shot past us" so I have to question your entire perspective. You might want to rephrase your observation without the hyperbole.

The "gap" between JMU and more established schools (relative to levels of financial support JMU is able to offer students) has always been there, but it's not getting better at the undergraduate level, and at the graduate level it's never been particularly competitive.

Things are never static, and while JMU's endowment is growing, the competition is intensifying. JMU has been focused for more than a decade on developing our campus infrastructure (i.e. a new library, "Student Success Center" etc.), and the campus is impressive, but JMU is still not able to play with the big boys when it comes to $$ spent on academics or recruitment of top students.

The establishment of an Honors College is a welcome first step, but it's just a curricular shell unless you can pony up the money to recruit students to the program. Top High School students are smart shoppers, and they are limited/finite in number (particularly when you measure them as a potential percentage of a much larger student body).

If JMU expects to meet enrollment targets (which have a direct connection to budgets), and at the same time improve the institution's overall academic profile given the larger student body, JMU will have to wrap-up the building campaign in the near future (such as the much needed improvements to the COB, expanded Carrier Library, etc.), and begin to focus on $$$ for student scholarships. And yes, it's that simple. JMU is still recruiting/enrolling the same number of great students it enrolled in the 1980s-90s, but we've also doubled the overall enrollment, and the coffee is weaker.
09-15-2017 05:40 PM
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olddawg Online
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Post: #52
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
(09-15-2017 05:40 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  
(09-15-2017 09:04 AM)olddawg Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 06:53 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 05:51 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:58 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  If seeing JMU enrollments decline, budgets seriously impacted, and academic reputation lowered is the price required to pay for playing an ACC team at BFS count me out.

Assume you are alluding to ODU. Obviously, noone wants lowered academics, and I don't see the connection there. ODU athletic contributioms are up, though the Cox bill is making it difficult for them to fund a new stadium the way they would like. They are slipping academically for reasons unrelated to football, and athletics are taking a financial hit due to decreasing enrollments. My understanding is some other schools (NSU?) have had the same predicament.

I am much more disturbed/concerned about JMU's apparent need to maintain an increased enrollment resulting in lowered admission standards, including dropping the SAT. The gap between JMU and W&M/UVa academically seems to have grown from when I attended, and that really does worry me. If anything, I'd argue we need to increase exposure and "national" student recruiting to improve this. I am discouraged that JMU appears to have slipped to where some outsiders perceive us to be at the level of GMU and CNU. I'd fault rapid growth of the student body without an equivalent growth in applicants combined with the pressure to "diversify" at any cost. JMU should be working fervently to attract the very best students,and part of that includes attracting students beyond the northeast corridor.

Methinks you are commenting about things regarding the JMU application and admissions process in which you have little real inside information about. Let me reassure you that JMU always works "fervently" to attract the best students, and the institution is well managed in this area. What JMU lacks is scholarship money, and the needle to recruit "the best" won't move until that issue is significantly improved.

And yes, my post was a reference to ODU's situation, and their declining enrollment was directly related to the big cut they were forced to make to their athletic budget. If ODU continues to miss their enrollment targets expect more of the same as it impacts budgets all through their university. [/b]
You have made reference to this several times before. While I have no doubt it is a contributing factor, the schools we want to compete with for students have always had a significant financial advantage to leverage. Are you saying that only recently have they attempted to use it? I'm only noticing the gap widening (as mentioned by JMURocks) in the last 20 years, the same period where I noticed schools with historically lesser academic profiles shoot past us.

03-lmfao Other universities have not "shot past us" so I have to question your entire perspective. You might want to rephrase your observation without the hyperbole.

The "gap" between JMU and more established schools (relative to levels of financial support JMU is able to offer students) has always been there, but it's not getting better at the undergraduate level, and at the graduate level it's never been particularly competitive.

Things are never static, and while JMU's endowment is growing, the competition is intensifying. JMU has been focused for more than a decade on developing our campus infrastructure (i.e. a new library, "Student Success Center" etc.), and the campus is impressive, but JMU is still not able to play with the big boys when it comes to $$ spent on academics or recruitment of top students.

The establishment of an Honors College is a welcome first step, but it's just a curricular shell unless you can pony up the money to recruit students to the program. Top High School students are smart shoppers, and they are limited/finite in number (particularly when you measure them as a potential percentage of a much larger student body).

If JMU expects to meet enrollment targets (which have a direct connection to budgets), and at the same time improve the institution's overall academic profile given the larger student body, JMU will have to wrap-up the building campaign in the near future (such as the much needed improvements to the COB, expanded Carrier Library, etc.), and begin to focus on $$$ for student scholarships. And yes, it's that simple. JMU is still recruiting/enrolling the same number of great students it enrolled in the 1980s-90s, but we've also doubled the overall enrollment, and the coffee is weaker.

Quick, somebody get Longhorn a ladder so he may dismount his high horse and get to his seat at Bridgeforth!
09-15-2017 10:02 PM
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Longhorn Offline
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Post: #53
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
(09-15-2017 10:02 PM)olddawg Wrote:  
(09-15-2017 05:40 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  
(09-15-2017 09:04 AM)olddawg Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 06:53 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 05:51 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  Assume you are alluding to ODU. Obviously, noone wants lowered academics, and I don't see the connection there. ODU athletic contributioms are up, though the Cox bill is making it difficult for them to fund a new stadium the way they would like. They are slipping academically for reasons unrelated to football, and athletics are taking a financial hit due to decreasing enrollments. My understanding is some other schools (NSU?) have had the same predicament.

I am much more disturbed/concerned about JMU's apparent need to maintain an increased enrollment resulting in lowered admission standards, including dropping the SAT. The gap between JMU and W&M/UVa academically seems to have grown from when I attended, and that really does worry me. If anything, I'd argue we need to increase exposure and "national" student recruiting to improve this. I am discouraged that JMU appears to have slipped to where some outsiders perceive us to be at the level of GMU and CNU. I'd fault rapid growth of the student body without an equivalent growth in applicants combined with the pressure to "diversify" at any cost. JMU should be working fervently to attract the very best students,and part of that includes attracting students beyond the northeast corridor.

Methinks you are commenting about things regarding the JMU application and admissions process in which you have little real inside information about. Let me reassure you that JMU always works "fervently" to attract the best students, and the institution is well managed in this area. What JMU lacks is scholarship money, and the needle to recruit "the best" won't move until that issue is significantly improved.

And yes, my post was a reference to ODU's situation, and their declining enrollment was directly related to the big cut they were forced to make to their athletic budget. If ODU continues to miss their enrollment targets expect more of the same as it impacts budgets all through their university. [/b]
You have made reference to this several times before. While I have no doubt it is a contributing factor, the schools we want to compete with for students have always had a significant financial advantage to leverage. Are you saying that only recently have they attempted to use it? I'm only noticing the gap widening (as mentioned by JMURocks) in the last 20 years, the same period where I noticed schools with historically lesser academic profiles shoot past us.

03-lmfao Other universities have not "shot past us" so I have to question your entire perspective. You might want to rephrase your observation without the hyperbole.

The "gap" between JMU and more established schools (relative to levels of financial support JMU is able to offer students) has always been there, but it's not getting better at the undergraduate level, and at the graduate level it's never been particularly competitive.

Things are never static, and while JMU's endowment is growing, the competition is intensifying. JMU has been focused for more than a decade on developing our campus infrastructure (i.e. a new library, "Student Success Center" etc.), and the campus is impressive, but JMU is still not able to play with the big boys when it comes to $$ spent on academics or recruitment of top students.

The establishment of an Honors College is a welcome first step, but it's just a curricular shell unless you can pony up the money to recruit students to the program. Top High School students are smart shoppers, and they are limited/finite in number (particularly when you measure them as a potential percentage of a much larger student body).

If JMU expects to meet enrollment targets (which have a direct connection to budgets), and at the same time improve the institution's overall academic profile given the larger student body, JMU will have to wrap-up the building campaign in the near future (such as the much needed improvements to the COB, expanded Carrier Library, etc.), and begin to focus on $$$ for student scholarships. And yes, it's that simple. JMU is still recruiting/enrolling the same number of great students it enrolled in the 1980s-90s, but we've also doubled the overall enrollment, and the coffee is weaker.

Quick, somebody get Longhorn a ladder so he may dismount his high horse and get to his seat at Bridgeforth!

My apologies if my professional insight upsets the rant (and mistaken notion) of those backseat QBs who would prefer to believe that other institutions have "shot past" JMU. 07-coffee3
09-15-2017 11:30 PM
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DoubleDogDare Offline
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Post: #54
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
LH – What are your thoughts on JMU’s tuition rate and value? Based on the list of VA schools tuitions, it appears that JMU could easily justify an extra $1k in tuition (excl. standard inflationary raises). I believe on the academic side of the house, JMU gets a lot of value out of the budget/money. I imagine a $21M yearly increase (1k x 21k students) would be spent wisely and add additional value to JMU students, helping justify the increase. Will an increase in tuition create a reduction in state funding or otherwise impact money inflows in another way?

Does scholarship money have to come from a specific? Is it safe to say that with a $21M increase in funding from tuition, JMU could substantially increase the amount of aid they provide for merit/academic students? Wouldn’t this help fill the ‘shell’ that has been established with the Honors College.

While I don’t have data to show that universities have ‘shot past us,’ JMU has provided data that the school hasn’t improved in the acceptance rate and SAT profile (which I know are just two data points).
Applicants, Acceptance Rate, Mean SAT of Freshman Class
1998: 13.2k, 59.4%, 1175
2003: 15.0k, 62.5%, 1167
2007: 18.4k, 62.7%, 1140
2011: 22.3k, 61%, 1147
2013: 23.4k, 61%, 1152
2016: 21.3k, 72%, Mean SAT not provided

http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol21no1.pdf
http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol25no1.pdf
http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol30no1.pdf
09-16-2017 07:57 AM
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DoubleDogDare Offline
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Post: #55
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
LH – What are your thoughts on JMU’s tuition rate and value? Based on the list of VA schools tuitions, it appears that JMU could easily justify an extra $1k in tuition (excl. standard inflationary raises). I believe on the academic side of the house, JMU gets a lot of value out of the budget/money. I imagine a $21M yearly increase (1k x 21k students) would be spent wisely and add additional value to JMU students, helping justify the increase. Will an increase in tuition create a reduction in state funding or otherwise impact money inflows in another way?

Does scholarship money have to come from a specific? Is it safe to say that with a $21M increase in funding from tuition, JMU could substantially increase the amount of aid they provide for merit/academic students? Wouldn’t this help fill the ‘shell’ that has been established with the Honors College.

While I don’t have data to show that universities have ‘shot past us,’ JMU has provided data that the school hasn’t improved in the acceptance rate and SAT profile (which I know are just two data points).
Applicants, Acceptance Rate, Mean SAT of Freshman Class
1998: 13.2k, 59.4%, 1175
2003: 15.0k, 62.5%, 1167
2007: 18.4k, 62.7%, 1140
2011: 22.3k, 61%, 1147
2013: 23.4k, 61%, 1152
2016: 21.3k, 72%, Mean SAT not provided

http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol21no1.pdf
http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol25no1.pdf
http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol30no1.pdf
09-16-2017 07:57 AM
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Longhorn Offline
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Post: #56
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
(09-16-2017 07:57 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  LH – What are your thoughts on JMU’s tuition rate and value? Based on the list of VA schools tuitions, it appears that JMU could easily justify an extra $1k in tuition (excl. standard inflationary raises). I believe on the academic side of the house, JMU gets a lot of value out of the budget/money. I imagine a $21M yearly increase (1k x 21k students) would be spent wisely and add additional value to JMU students, helping justify the increase. Will an increase in tuition create a reduction in state funding or otherwise impact money inflows in another way?

Does scholarship money have to come from a specific? Is it safe to say that with a $21M increase in funding from tuition, JMU could substantially increase the amount of aid they provide for merit/academic students? Wouldn’t this help fill the ‘shell’ that has been established with the Honors College.

While I don’t have data to show that universities have ‘shot past us,’ JMU has provided data that the school hasn’t improved in the acceptance rate and SAT profile (which I know are just two data points).
Applicants, Acceptance Rate, Mean SAT of Freshman Class
1998: 13.2k, 59.4%, 1175
2003: 15.0k, 62.5%, 1167
2007: 18.4k, 62.7%, 1140
2011: 22.3k, 61%, 1147
2013: 23.4k, 61%, 1152
2016: 21.3k, 72%, Mean SAT not provided

http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol21no1.pdf
http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol25no1.pdf
http://www.jmu.edu/instresrch/notes/Vol30no1.pdf

There's a lot of merit to your thinking. Raising tuition has always been a political issue (as fees have become with the Cox bill), but if tuition was raised and the increased revenue was targeted at student financial aid/scholarships you could mitigate the issue JMU is experiencing with recruiting top kids out of High School.

The other issue as you have pointed out is the rising acceptance rate. It has risen as a major factor in meeting budgets for all the concrete we're seeing poured on campus. While the same percentage of top kids are still coming to campus their presence on campus as a percentage of a much larger student body has diluted the academic profile of the institution. Increasingly, JMU is also seeing larger numbers of VA community college transfers, and while I don't think this a bad development, it does impact JMU's profile.

If tuition were raised as a strategic move where the money was used to enroll top students (say target enrolling 75-100 National Merit Scholars each year (for a total of around 500 NM scholars on campus), and couple that move to recruiting some professorial frosting spread across the colleges...say 3-4 Nobel Prize, Fields Medal, Pulitzer Prize winners, etc., you'd possibly start to see a change in selectivity. In the end it's all part of a really strong university maturing.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2017 06:50 PM by Longhorn.)
09-16-2017 06:47 PM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #57
RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
Phrase I learned today for the day: professorial frosting
09-16-2017 07:16 PM
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Longhorn Offline
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RE: JMU #7 South Regional University in 2018
(09-16-2017 07:16 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Phrase I learned today for the day: professorial frosting

04-cheers
09-16-2017 10:07 PM
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