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WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #101
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
(09-11-2017 10:14 AM)LouisvilleHilltopper Wrote:  



If you can stomach it, here's a breakdown (from Illinois' perspective) of a good bit of WKU's offensive plays. Offensive tackles just getting manhandled every play.

I saw some man handling but what I saw a lot more of was Ill putting 6 or more players on the line against 5 blockers. I also saw our RB getting the ball 8 yards deep and instead of coming towards the line on the snap...the QB taking the ball back to the RB. With 6 to 8 in the box not many teams are running against that.

Saw a lot of miss assignments and I also noticed on quick plays like we ran most of last year. White had time to throw. Some were blown up but not many on the quick pass.

The pass down the field that Western seem to be going to more often this year. Takes more time to develop. So White is holding the ball a couple seconds longer.

I still put 90% of this on system and scheming....spread is built on quick passes and on hot route on the blitz. Sanford is trying to get offensive linemen that played the spread offense since they got at Western. To learn the west coast offense that takes years to fully learn. Blocking schemes are dictated on the movement from the defense after motion from the tight end.

So to me this is still a coaching/teaching problem more so than a bad offensive line problem. Of course it could be both. But if you recall Willie said it would take a couple years to fully learn the west coast offense. Sanford is already hinting at that also.

If coaching or teaching dont get fixed soon Western wont win many games.
09-11-2017 10:50 AM
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LouisvilleHilltopper Offline
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Post: #102
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
(09-11-2017 10:50 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 10:14 AM)LouisvilleHilltopper Wrote:  



If you can stomach it, here's a breakdown (from Illinois' perspective) of a good bit of WKU's offensive plays. Offensive tackles just getting manhandled every play.

I saw some man handling but what I saw a lot more of was Ill putting 6 or more players on the line against 5 blockers. I also saw our RB getting the ball 8 yards deep and instead of coming towards the line on the snap...the QB taking the ball back to the RB. With 6 to 8 in the box not many teams are running against that.

Saw a lot of miss assignments and I also noticed on quick plays like we ran most of last year. White had time to throw. Some were blown up but not many on the quick pass.

The pass down the field that Western seem to be going to more often this year. Takes more time to develop. So White is holding the ball a couple seconds longer.

I still put 90% of this on system and scheming....spread is built on quick passes and on hot route on the blitz. Sanford is trying to get offensive linemen that played the spread offense since they got at Western. To learn the west coast offense that takes years to fully learn. Blocking schemes are dictated on the movement from the defense after motion from the tight end.

So to me this is still a coaching/teaching problem more so than a bad offensive line problem. Of course it could be both. But if you recall Willie said it would take a couple years to fully learn the west coast offense. Sanford is already hinting at that also.

If coaching or teaching dont get fixed soon Western wont win many games.

This drove me crazy. On 3rd and 1 Ferby gets the ball 8 yards deep. Makes no sense.
09-11-2017 11:39 AM
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Post: #103
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
(09-11-2017 10:33 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 10:04 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 09:36 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:38 PM)TopsonTop Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 10:29 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  the same stadium I saw....

old rundown with 1/3 of the lower section empty. I did not see up top after the game started. That 1/3 I'm talking about sets under the roof with metal beams blocking part of the view and the last 20 or so rows a person can not see a pass going down field. I stood in the back watching a 3rd down play before heading to the restroom. Even sitting down you cut off everything a little over the players head. Bunch of young kids running around playing. But a lot of rows empty. This is common with a lot of older stadium with overhang upper decks that I've been to.

A few other things...this stadium is still set back in the 40s-1960s where the rest room is a long open pit on the side of the room where you stand on a platform and take a leak. I don't have a problem pissing with 30 other men. But it is 1940-1960ish. The two I ended up using had 2 stalls each. If 3 people at a time really really needed to take a crap. One was shitting their pants. You need to walk up 30 rows of steps to get into the ramps and then 30 feet up ramps to get to a restroom or concession stand. There is no way possible for a person to get a drink or go take a piss in between punts or change of possession.

I don't know what legit means to you...I must have a different definition on what makes a stadium legit. The crowd and video boards I agree with. The size of a city has little to do with that when you are "the" state university. The halftime show was good and some of their gimmicks for fans to make noise were great. Everything but that scream/screeching sound they played on the boards. We probably just disagree on what makes a great football stadium.

We probably do. Being in my 30's, I've never had an issue finding a bathroom in time to take a piss. I can only imagine what it must be like to be much older. The stadium capacity is 55k and the crowd was 41k so they were about at 75% capacity but like you said, the empty seats were the 20 rows underneath the overhang, so when you look at the stadium from the front or really any other vantage point, it is a full stadium for all intents and purposes because those empty rows are even barely visible. As far as accessibility to concessions, I didn't have any issues. As far as accessibility to stands, I thought the stadium was laid out very intelligently. I've been to far worse, and WKU's isn't the easiest. Trying to remember the quickest ramps to take in WKU's stadium is like being in the Labyrinth. As many times as I've been in there, I always manage to take the long route. In Illinois' stadium, the main entrances lead into the middle of the stands so you can go up or down accordingly, and yet still have top of the stands entrances/exits. It's not only laid out intelligently, it's very clean looking too. The outside of the stadium is really beautiful, of course so is ours IMO. The size of the city was mentioned because regardless of UI being B10 or the only major state university and WKU being CUSA, your community should support your school. If you don't like me pulling up the similarities in city size, you'd hate for me to mention App State and it's attendance compared to population (which I've mentioned before). And you might try to find excuses for that as well. There is no excuse for WKU not to have a packed stadium every week and I mentioned it as one of the things I'm jealous of about Illinois. When I see my hometown come out for App State, I'm jealous of that too for WKU.

Witnessing the passion and coordination of the students though and how they led the whole stadium in their chant was neato, and how at halftime the students individually held up colored paper that formed the words "Dead Toppers" "ILLINI" and a skull and cross bones across the entire section was spectacular.

We do have a difference of opinion on what makes a stadium legit. I think atmosphere does, you think bathroom proximity does. Agree to disagree.

But my wife and I moved to the right underneath that cove you were talking about right before halftime to avoid the wind and a very crazy WKU fan in the horseshoe making a fool out of himself. So if you saw two WKU fans and their two kids under there, that was us.


Like you and I said we just have a difference of opinion on what makes a stadium legit. To me atmosphere is game day experience and I agree with you on that. The stadium is just that and everything that goes into it.

But lets talk attendance and the point you brought up on Appy St. First off we are talking about a football school...

some don't think that matters. Those with that opinion are mostly in a football first state or school.

Now back to Appy St. is every home game shown on live local TV? Western's is and it makes a difference. But so does ticket cost. Some schools value putting butts in seats even if they have to sell Dollar ticket with every meal at the Wendy's or Super market.

Western seems to put value on each ticket and will not discount tickets at a give away price. The one thing Western does correctly...value season ticket holders. If they did as Ark St and a few other schools that value butts more than dollars. Western could lower ticket prices. But with that comes lower season tickets sold and the donation that comes with it.

If people know they can get a ticket to 4 or 5 out of 6 games at a discounted price all the way down to $1. Why would they buy season tickets.


So with that lets look at what really matters to a football program.... cold hard dollars. What do the below numbers tell you on which school is ahead of the game. And which school puts asses in seats ahead of dollars in the bank? One or two things are taking place at Appy St

1. fudging attendance numbers
2. selling a lot of discounted or free tickets

2016 Ticket Sales

Appalachian State $1,573,482 (avg 26,153 total 156,916...avg cost of ticket $10)

Western $2,119,884 (avg 17,705 total 123,935...avg cost of ticket $17)

2015 Ticket Sales

Appalachian State $1,604,339

Western $2,224,966

In 2013 Appalachian State had ticket sales of $2,334,633 and 2016 is a $761,151 (33%) drop from 2013. Only two ways to explain that. lower ticket prices or lower attendance. In 2013 Appy St average attendance was 24,894. So looking at those numbers and compared to 2016 in my opinion...

Appy St value dollars since they were FCS. Today they putt a value of asses in the seats over ticket price since they moved up to FBS and lost all their rivals. Which probably makes it harder filling the stadium..discounted tickets

So look at listed attendance numbers don't always show a clear picture or comparing apples to apples

Those ticket sales are for all sports not just football. Have you seen App's BB attendance? It's bad. WKU is not where you want to be on that front I'm sure but still miles ahead of App. In 2017, you sold 36,000 more men's tickets and 21,000 more women's. Looking at total ticket sales to try to justify football attendance is not working in this case. If you valued these tickets at just $10 a piece it would more than make up for the difference in sales. Bottom line, App brings in more money than WKU from football ticket sales and last year brought in about $1 million more in donations to boot.

You are correct basketball tickets are in those numbers and Western averages $800,000 on basketball tickets sold. That number varies from year to year but over the last 4 years basketball attendance was flat and with in a couple hundred one way or the other. So $800,000 is right in the neighborhood.

Brings Western down to 1,369,884 and still close to even with Appy if you take away 1/4 of what Western made on basketball for them.

They still averaged 26,153 to Westerns 17,705 with the same amount of dollars brought in as Western.

Donation have nothing to do with how a school can average 8448 more fans for each home game and still bring in the same amount of money off tickets sold.

Appy is still selling a tickets at a huge discount to fill their stands. As I said not apples to apples with listed attendance. One school still puts a higher value on the cost of each ticket sold.

Donations comes in on season tickets but not walk ups and that will be the largest % of fans on game day.

You took a comment about how a program in a town of 19,000 and county of 52,000 isolated in the mountains has consistently higher football attendance than a school in a city of 65,000 and a county of 123,000... and you turned it into a debate about ticket sales, higher gross revenues, and other bullcrap that really doesn't matter. Congratulations on completely derailing the point of the comment with minutiae. The entire town is painted black and gold, their numbers are NOT inflated... some games there aren't enough seats for all the people that come out. You just can not accept that Bowling Green absolutely sucks about supporting WKU. Maybe you can accept it, you just like to think every other school that has a successful supportive community is somehow the exception to the rule, not us.

By the way, it's not 'Appy' any more than it's wkcc. I know you don't care, but it's disrespectful to a similar program who has risen through the ranks of college football quickly just like WKU to call them with your own little moniker. I know, I know, you think everybody loves that name except we had this debate last year and you lost. It's App State. K thanks.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2017 12:04 PM by TopsonTop.)
09-11-2017 12:02 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #104
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
Maybe this MB should limit post to 700 words or less.
09-11-2017 02:04 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #105
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
(09-11-2017 12:02 PM)TopsonTop Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 10:33 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 10:04 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 09:36 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:38 PM)TopsonTop Wrote:  We probably do. Being in my 30's, I've never had an issue finding a bathroom in time to take a piss. I can only imagine what it must be like to be much older. The stadium capacity is 55k and the crowd was 41k so they were about at 75% capacity but like you said, the empty seats were the 20 rows underneath the overhang, so when you look at the stadium from the front or really any other vantage point, it is a full stadium for all intents and purposes because those empty rows are even barely visible. As far as accessibility to concessions, I didn't have any issues. As far as accessibility to stands, I thought the stadium was laid out very intelligently. I've been to far worse, and WKU's isn't the easiest. Trying to remember the quickest ramps to take in WKU's stadium is like being in the Labyrinth. As many times as I've been in there, I always manage to take the long route. In Illinois' stadium, the main entrances lead into the middle of the stands so you can go up or down accordingly, and yet still have top of the stands entrances/exits. It's not only laid out intelligently, it's very clean looking too. The outside of the stadium is really beautiful, of course so is ours IMO. The size of the city was mentioned because regardless of UI being B10 or the only major state university and WKU being CUSA, your community should support your school. If you don't like me pulling up the similarities in city size, you'd hate for me to mention App State and it's attendance compared to population (which I've mentioned before). And you might try to find excuses for that as well. There is no excuse for WKU not to have a packed stadium every week and I mentioned it as one of the things I'm jealous of about Illinois. When I see my hometown come out for App State, I'm jealous of that too for WKU.

Witnessing the passion and coordination of the students though and how they led the whole stadium in their chant was neato, and how at halftime the students individually held up colored paper that formed the words "Dead Toppers" "ILLINI" and a skull and cross bones across the entire section was spectacular.

We do have a difference of opinion on what makes a stadium legit. I think atmosphere does, you think bathroom proximity does. Agree to disagree.

But my wife and I moved to the right underneath that cove you were talking about right before halftime to avoid the wind and a very crazy WKU fan in the horseshoe making a fool out of himself. So if you saw two WKU fans and their two kids under there, that was us.


Like you and I said we just have a difference of opinion on what makes a stadium legit. To me atmosphere is game day experience and I agree with you on that. The stadium is just that and everything that goes into it.

But lets talk attendance and the point you brought up on Appy St. First off we are talking about a football school...

some don't think that matters. Those with that opinion are mostly in a football first state or school.

Now back to Appy St. is every home game shown on live local TV? Western's is and it makes a difference. But so does ticket cost. Some schools value putting butts in seats even if they have to sell Dollar ticket with every meal at the Wendy's or Super market.

Western seems to put value on each ticket and will not discount tickets at a give away price. The one thing Western does correctly...value season ticket holders. If they did as Ark St and a few other schools that value butts more than dollars. Western could lower ticket prices. But with that comes lower season tickets sold and the donation that comes with it.

If people know they can get a ticket to 4 or 5 out of 6 games at a discounted price all the way down to $1. Why would they buy season tickets.


So with that lets look at what really matters to a football program.... cold hard dollars. What do the below numbers tell you on which school is ahead of the game. And which school puts asses in seats ahead of dollars in the bank? One or two things are taking place at Appy St

1. fudging attendance numbers
2. selling a lot of discounted or free tickets

2016 Ticket Sales

Appalachian State $1,573,482 (avg 26,153 total 156,916...avg cost of ticket $10)

Western $2,119,884 (avg 17,705 total 123,935...avg cost of ticket $17)

2015 Ticket Sales

Appalachian State $1,604,339

Western $2,224,966

In 2013 Appalachian State had ticket sales of $2,334,633 and 2016 is a $761,151 (33%) drop from 2013. Only two ways to explain that. lower ticket prices or lower attendance. In 2013 Appy St average attendance was 24,894. So looking at those numbers and compared to 2016 in my opinion...

Appy St value dollars since they were FCS. Today they putt a value of asses in the seats over ticket price since they moved up to FBS and lost all their rivals. Which probably makes it harder filling the stadium..discounted tickets

So look at listed attendance numbers don't always show a clear picture or comparing apples to apples

Those ticket sales are for all sports not just football. Have you seen App's BB attendance? It's bad. WKU is not where you want to be on that front I'm sure but still miles ahead of App. In 2017, you sold 36,000 more men's tickets and 21,000 more women's. Looking at total ticket sales to try to justify football attendance is not working in this case. If you valued these tickets at just $10 a piece it would more than make up for the difference in sales. Bottom line, App brings in more money than WKU from football ticket sales and last year brought in about $1 million more in donations to boot.

You are correct basketball tickets are in those numbers and Western averages $800,000 on basketball tickets sold. That number varies from year to year but over the last 4 years basketball attendance was flat and with in a couple hundred one way or the other. So $800,000 is right in the neighborhood.

Brings Western down to 1,369,884 and still close to even with Appy if you take away 1/4 of what Western made on basketball for them.

They still averaged 26,153 to Westerns 17,705 with the same amount of dollars brought in as Western.

Donation have nothing to do with how a school can average 8448 more fans for each home game and still bring in the same amount of money off tickets sold.

Appy is still selling a tickets at a huge discount to fill their stands. As I said not apples to apples with listed attendance. One school still puts a higher value on the cost of each ticket sold.

Donations comes in on season tickets but not walk ups and that will be the largest % of fans on game day.

You took a comment about how a program in a town of 19,000 and county of 52,000 isolated in the mountains has consistently higher football attendance than a school in a city of 65,000 and a county of 123,000... and you turned it into a debate about ticket sales, higher gross revenues, and other bullcrap that really doesn't matter. Congratulations on completely derailing the point of the comment with minutiae. The entire town is painted black and gold, their numbers are NOT inflated... some games there aren't enough seats for all the people that come out. You just can not accept that Bowling Green absolutely sucks about supporting WKU. Maybe you can accept it, you just like to think every other school that has a successful supportive community is somehow the exception to the rule, not us.

By the way, it's not 'Appy' any more than it's wkcc. I know you don't care, but it's disrespectful to a similar program who has risen through the ranks of college football quickly just like WKU to call them with your own little moniker. I know, I know, you think everybody loves that name except we had this debate last year and you lost. It's App State. K thanks.

First off you turned this into a a topic about Appy ST attendance. Don't use them as a example and compare them to Western's lack of
attendance/support. Then get upset when someone shows you why there might be this difference.

I don't know if Western gets 23,000 with dollar tickets. But ticket cost and all home games being shown locally on TV are reasons. Again if their numbers aren't inflated they are discounting a ton of tickets. There is no other way to explain one school averaging 26k and one school 17k and both bring in the same amount of dollars or close to it off tickets sold.

Attendance and support are two different things. The important way to support your school is with DOLLARS....

ask any AD and they will tell you money made off tickets sold is a important to them as asses in seats. If they say any different they probably wont be at their job very long. Money is the most important factor to a athletic dept.

As for not calling them Appy St...

you're correct I don't give a damn what they want to be called or what you want their school to be called. Western wants to be called WKU and I still call Western by the name I always used. The same will go for Appy St.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2017 03:49 PM by WKUYG.)
09-11-2017 03:44 PM
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TopsonTop Offline
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Post: #106
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
Once again, you've brilliantly dismissed the salient point in favor of a logical fallacy. App State was never called Appy State to begin with, Western was. But really REALLY nice try at the comparison there.
09-12-2017 02:24 AM
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Post: #107
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
App also likely has more students come to the game which could explain lower ticket sales per attendance.

If you're Appy and you know it.....
09-12-2017 08:45 AM
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Post: #108
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
Even when the weather is cold, cold, cold............

[Image: 8d829ae447403fae74aaee1ef21147df.jpg]



(This post was last modified: 09-12-2017 08:53 AM by KAjunRaider.)
09-12-2017 08:49 AM
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WKUFan518 Offline
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Post: #109
RE: WKU--Illinois Thread Big 10 network 7pm
(09-10-2017 08:15 AM)Jack Bauer Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 07:47 AM)SVHerd Wrote:  Boys, settle down. 10 games left. Most importantly the league schedule. 2 games into a new regime is not the time to get out the pitchforks. The last 2-3 years have been very good ones, not many schools can continue that unless they're named Alabama.

This is true but after 5 years of good offense it's hard to see the incompetence of our coaches. Willie T was wet behind the ears but he knew what he was doing. He learned from one of the best. I was hoping that this guy would be the same. Not holding my breath anymore.

Offense was a mess under Willie too for a season or two, however Willie could recruit...I can see Sanford along the lines with Willie, we may suck this season but in a year or two with his system in place might start getting more and more wins.....Its clear Sanford can recruit just based on the talent he has gotten verbally committed.....Its clear though Jeff Brohm is someone we may never replace or see an offense like that ever again.....
09-12-2017 12:33 PM
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