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Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-12-2017 09:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 07:57 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 07:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 12:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 09:30 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i want to hear more about Marquette/St johns incident in 91! I never heard Marquette was in play back then

Back in 91, the BE bball schools agreed to add the football schools, but wanted another of their own. Evidently, the deal was that the bball school would agree to adding football to the conference, and then vote to add the slate of the football schools. Thereafter, there would be a vote to consider the addition of one, non-football school. I think it was to equalize the numbers of full time members, 7 to 7. The MU AD told me that MU was that non-football school. At the last minute, SJU flip flopped after the football schools were admitted and voted against adding any further members. So, there were not enough votes to add the non-football school. Take it for what its worth, but the story came directly from the MU AD.[/align]

interesting never heard that. in 91 however I think the fb schools were fb only . it was around 95 that WVU and Rutgers were offered full membership. VaTech was not. About same time ND also came on board

Why did the Big East make Va Tech wait 5 years after WVU and Rutgers got full invites and Notre Dame came on board?

Snobbery. VT wasn't their type of school and I think they were viewed as rural upstarts. I wonder if VT had been treated better by the Big East if they would have been so anxious to pull political strings to grab Syracuse's ACC invite and jump ship?

It was hard enough to get Rutgers and West Virginia in. Odd enough considering Rutgers was originally invited in '78 when the conference was formed, and declined to stay in the Eastern 8 with Penn State. Seton Hall and St. John's definitely didn't want to expand, and Seton Hall didn't want Rutgers in the league, Villanova NEVER wanted Temple in the conference and it was a hot mess.

To get Rutgers and WVU in the football schools had to extend an invite to any of the FCS schools to the football side of the conference (which UConn took and Villanova considered a couple of time) and expand with a non-football playing member, paving the way for Notre Dame to be admitted.
09-13-2017 08:31 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-12-2017 09:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 07:57 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 07:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 12:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 09:30 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i want to hear more about Marquette/St johns incident in 91! I never heard Marquette was in play back then

Back in 91, the BE bball schools agreed to add the football schools, but wanted another of their own. Evidently, the deal was that the bball school would agree to adding football to the conference, and then vote to add the slate of the football schools. Thereafter, there would be a vote to consider the addition of one, non-football school. I think it was to equalize the numbers of full time members, 7 to 7. The MU AD told me that MU was that non-football school. At the last minute, SJU flip flopped after the football schools were admitted and voted against adding any further members. So, there were not enough votes to add the non-football school. Take it for what its worth, but the story came directly from the MU AD.[/align]

interesting never heard that. in 91 however I think the fb schools were fb only . it was around 95 that WVU and Rutgers were offered full membership. VaTech was not. About same time ND also came on board

Why did the Big East make Va Tech wait 5 years after WVU and Rutgers got full invites and Notre Dame came on board?

Snobbery. VT wasn't their type of school and I think they were viewed as rural upstarts. I wonder if VT had been treated better by the Big East if they would have been so anxious to pull political strings to grab Syracuse's ACC invite and jump ship?

Former Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel described the event in an article on the SU website. http://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history2.aspx
Quote:At the NCAA Convention in San Antonio in January of 1994, I was asked by Neil Pilson, then president of CBS Sports, to meet with him. The meeting was a shocker. CBS had been out of the college football business for some time with ABC/ESPN claiming all the exclusive rights. This was CBS's opportunity to get back in. It had reached an agreement with the SEC for football and basketball, and needed BIG EAST inventory to round out its programming. CBS laid a lot of money on the table for exclusive national network rights of The BIG EAST Conference for football and basketball. We pointed out to CBS that we could not represent the non-football playing schools in the BIG EAST for their basketball rights. The response from CBS was that it would then assume the basketball rights for the eight BIG EAST football schools. A total mess! We were looking at a situation where B.C., Pitt, Miami and Syracuse were being asked by CBS to pull its basketball television rights away from The BIG EAST Conference. Clearly, we couldn't do that and remain in The BIG EAST Conference. On the other hand, we couldn't reject the amount of money CBS was offering for the package deal.

After meeting with CBS the directors of B.C., Pitt, Miami and I met. I suggested that the only shot we had at keeping everything together and at the same time benefiting from the CBS largesse was to get a majority vote by "packing the court." To do that we needed to get two football schools accepted as new members of The BIG EAST Conference. In order to accomplish that we needed seven votes from the ten members, the four IA schools and three more. We believed UConn and Villanova would support us because both were talking about elevating their football programs to Division IA. That left one vote to coerce. If we could get it, we would be at 12 members, with a 6-6 representation of Division IA, and a 6-2 vote in the football conference. We could then force the vote on the football side, needing only one more vote on the basketball side to approve the CBS package offer.

This plan was presented to the 10 BIG EAST Directors and met with immediate and firm resistance by the non-IA schools. Once again football was driving the membership issue. After several futile and very long meetings among the directors, no resolution could be reached. The voting of the directors was split with the IA and IAA schools on one side and the basketball schools on the other. We turned the matter over to the presidents of our 10 schools to make the final decision. After two meetings a decision was reached in March, 1994, ironically at the Lubin House in New York City, the day before BIG EAST men's basketball tournament was to begin. St. Johns had represented a very strong anti-expansion position throughout our discussions. However, once the president became involved, and with the input of then head men's basketball coach Lou Carnesecca, the long-term implications were understood, and we had our seventh vote. Rutgers and West Virginia were added as our 11th and 12th members. There were, however, some very bitter and lingering feelings both about the process and the result. There was one condition attached to the agreement and one understanding. The condition was that should the University of Connecticut and/or Villanova move their football programs to Division IA within a given period of time, either or both would be invited to participate in The BIG EAST Football Conference as a full members. This is happening at UConn. The understanding was that the six Division IA member schools would not block acceptance of a 13th member which might have a Division IA football program but not be included in The BIG EAST Football Conference; i.e., Notre Dame. In June, 1994 Notre Dame officially became the 13th member in all sports except football.
And the take from a VT fan here: http://virginiatech.sportswar.com/articl...1990-1994/
They definitely got screwed.
Quote:1994: The infamous Big East snub

On another front, the CFA football TV contracts with the networks were about to expire at the end of the 1995 season, and conferences were beginning to negotiate their own TV deals, to take effect with the 1996 season. The CFA’s contracts with ABC/ESPN had limited college football exposure for years, but with CBS now a player, the opportunity was ripe for conferences to get increased dollars and exposure for their football programs. CBS had been out of the business of broadcasting college football since 1990, but with the loss of their NFL contract to the upstart Fox network, CBS was looking for new sports properties to sign up. College football looked like a prime candidate.

What did that have to do with Big East expansion? Simple, or maybe not so simple: CBS was negotiating with the conference for a combination football/basketball TV contract, but only for the eight schools that played football.

Huh?

You read that right. CBS was ready to sign a contract with the Big East’s eight football-playing schools not just for football, but for basketball. Ponder that a minute. On the football side it was a clean proposal, but on the basketball side, it was a mess. If the football schools signed a contract with CBS for basketball, it would give CBS rights to broadcast the hoops games of four schools that weren’t even in the Big East for basketball — schools such as Tech and Temple — but it wouldn’t give CBS the rights to broadcast games for the Big East basketball-only schools — schools such as St. John’s and Georgetown.

For the Big East, there were two solutions: (1) have the eight football schools break away into a new all-sports conference, making the TV contracts clean and simple; or (2) absorb the four football-only schools, which legally would make the new CBS basketball contract the property of all 14 schools, not just the eight football schools.

Heading into 1994, that was the situation, and you can see that either outcome was good for the Hokies. They would either be in an expanded Big East or in a new eight-team all-sports conference. Hokie fans were giddy with anticipation, and the issue was expected to be resolved in January or February of 1994.

In February, with Big East expansion still unresolved, CBS forced the issue by signing the eight BE football schools to a five-year, $72 million contract, $55 million of which was for football, and $17 million of which was for basketball. (As an aside, CBS also signed the SEC up to a five-year, $85 million deal for both football and basketball).

Within a week, ABC/ESPN followed suit, signing a five-year, $22 million contract with the eight football schools, bringing the total to $94 million over five years, or nearly $19 million a year. This really applied the pressure to the Big East football schools to expand the league or break away.

A breakaway looked like the most likely outcome, because 7 of 10 votes were needed for expansion, and at least four of the six basketball-only schools were staunchly opposed to expansion. A breakaway was such a near-certainty that in mid-February, athletic directors of the football schools met and drew up operating procedures for the anticipated new league. The four-team “Syracuse group” of Syracuse, BC, Pitt, and Miami, led by Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel, pledged a breakaway if the league presidents didn’t vote for a four-team expansion.

On Wednesday, March 9, 1994, Big East presidents voted on expansion. But instead of membership in a 14-team league or an eight-team breakaway league, Virginia Tech got a knife in the back.

The news came back from the meeting: the league had voted for a two-team expansion of WVU and Rutgers, and Tech and Temple were left out in the cold.

When push came to shove, the Syracuse group didn’t have the guts to break away from the league that Crouthamel had helped found. In addition to the loyalty issue, which Crouthamel felt especially strong about, it would have cost the Syracuse group millions of dollars by requiring them to each pay $1-$2 million in exit fees, plus give up the NCAA basketball tournament revenue-sharing units the league had built up, worth about $400,000 a year.

So they protected their flanks by pulling in expansion properties Rutgers and WVU, while leaving out Virginia Tech and Temple, whom no one else wanted.

The shocked Hokies rightfully felt betrayed, but as often happens in expansion, what the athletic directors wanted and what the school presidents agreed to turned out to be two different things. The question remains, who came up with the idea of the two-team expansion? In a retrospective written in 2000 and posted on the Syracuse web site, Crouthamel wrote:

After meeting with CBS the directors of B.C., Pitt, Miami and I met. I suggested that the only shot we had at keeping everything together and at the same time benefiting from the CBS largesse was to get a majority vote by “packing the court.” To do that we needed to get two football schools accepted [emphasis added] as new members of The BIG EAST Conference.

In so saying, Crouthamel takes credit for the idea, singling himself out as the backstabber. But in a March 30, 1994 article in Husky Blue and White, then-UConn president Harry Hartley took credit for the compromise idea.

The decision stung, but there was little the Hokies could do about it, other than fume. The Big East poured salt on the wound by declaring a five-year moratorium on expansion … then within a year, inviting Notre Dame in for all sports but football, making the league an unwieldy 13-team conglomeration.

The Hokies had been put in their place. They were not wanted.
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2017 09:14 AM by orangefan.)
09-13-2017 09:10 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-12-2017 01:53 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 12:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 09:30 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i want to hear more about Marquette/St johns incident in 91! I never heard Marquette was in play back then

Back in 91, the BE bball schools agreed to add the football schools, but wanted another of their own. Evidently, the deal was that the bball school would agree to adding football to the conference, and then vote to add the slate of the football schools. Thereafter, there would be a vote to consider the addition of one, non-football school. I think it was to equalize the numbers of full time members, 7 to 7. The MU AD told me that MU was that non-football school. At the last minute, SJU flip flopped after the football schools were admitted and voted against adding any further members. So, there were not enough votes to add the non-football school. Take it for what its worth, but the story came directly from the MU AD.[/align]

I have my doubts on this theory. I don't doubt it was said, just how close it was to actually happening. Marquette, at this time, was in bad shape basketball-wise. We just got rid of Bob Dukiet, who not only didn't make the tournament in his entire tenure, but the program hadn't made the tournament since 1983. We were also right at the start of the Kevin O'Neill era, who had just finished 11-18 in the 90-91 season. If the Big East wanted to add another non-football member, DePaul would have been the better choice. They had a better market and a better basketball program at this time, including a successful start to the Joey Meyer era (who was one of the best recruiters in the Midwest at this time).

If this was in 93-94, right after we went to the Sweet 16, I think it would hold more water. Heck, we finally got an invitation to the Big East after our Final Four run with Crean and Wade in 2003.

The Big East was threatened with losing its football playing members over and over throughout its history. It is interesting to speculate what the basketball-only members might have done if it had happened earlier. In my view, there were never any viable eastern options to replace any departing football schools, except possibly UMass during the Calipari era. The only real option was always to look west to some combination of Marquette, DePaul, Dayton, Xavier and Notre Dame.

1981 - Penn State seeks to form Eastern all-sports league that would include Syracuse and BC. Big East preserved by adding Pittsburgh.
1989 - Penn Stage joins the Big Ten; BE football-playing members need to reassess conference options. Big East preserved by adding Miami.
1994 - CBS offers football schools TV contract; football playing schools consider split. Big East preserved by adding WVU, Rutgers and Notre Dame.
2000 - Big East football loses CBS contract; rumors of ACC interest in Miami, Syracuse and/or VT. Big East preserved by adding VT.
2003 - ACC raids Big East; remaining football members consider splitting into separate conference. Notre Dame votes with basketball-only schools to prevent split (as a result of the vote, the football playing members would have had to pay exit fees and walk away from previously earned NCAA tournament shares to leave). Depaul and Marquette added as part of a compromise that opens the door for a future split.
2011 - Big East raided successively by ACC, Big 12 and Big Ten; Big East finally splits. Xavier, Butler and Creighton join the basketball-only members in the new Big East.
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2017 12:46 PM by orangefan.)
09-13-2017 10:29 AM
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Post: #64
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
I really think that if the Big East had admitted Penn State in 1981 along with Pitt (for 10 teams), they could have survived as a hybrid league, strong in both hoops and football, for a long long time. Penn State would have been the anchor and probably happy forming a league with West Virginia, Rutgers, etc as football only members.

If you saw ESPN's "Requiem for the Big East", you may recall Mike Tranghese stating that Dave Gavitt asked him what he thought when PSU was one vote short, that he replied "We will rue this day."

Just like I think UNC is the anchor for the ACC --- without them, it looks quite unstable. But not to the degree that the Big 12 is without Oklahoma or Texas.
09-13-2017 03:17 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-12-2017 09:48 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 07:57 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 07:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 12:58 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 09:30 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  i want to hear more about Marquette/St johns incident in 91! I never heard Marquette was in play back then

Back in 91, the BE bball schools agreed to add the football schools, but wanted another of their own. Evidently, the deal was that the bball school would agree to adding football to the conference, and then vote to add the slate of the football schools. Thereafter, there would be a vote to consider the addition of one, non-football school. I think it was to equalize the numbers of full time members, 7 to 7. The MU AD told me that MU was that non-football school. At the last minute, SJU flip flopped after the football schools were admitted and voted against adding any further members. So, there were not enough votes to add the non-football school. Take it for what its worth, but the story came directly from the MU AD.[/align]

interesting never heard that. in 91 however I think the fb schools were fb only . it was around 95 that WVU and Rutgers were offered full membership. VaTech was not. About same time ND also came on board

Why did the Big East make Va Tech wait 5 years after WVU and Rutgers got full invites and Notre Dame came on board?

Snobbery. VT wasn't their type of school and I think they were viewed as rural upstarts. I wonder if VT had been treated better by the Big East if they would have been so anxious to pull political strings to grab Syracuse's ACC invite and jump ship?

The ACC was always Virginia Tech's endgame, their white whale. They might have been perfectly happy to stay in the Big East forever, but they always wanted to be in with UVa. and the Carolina schools.
09-13-2017 04:34 PM
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solohawks Online
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Post: #66
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
If the "CBS breakaway" would have occurred I suspect you would have seen the 8 football schools cash in on the championship game craze as well as cripple the soon to be CUSA by adding Louisville, Cincy, Memphis, and Houston. These programs would also help establish the breakaway league as a basketball power as well

Miami
VA Tech
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Houston

WVU
Temple
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC
09-13-2017 06:41 PM
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Post: #67
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-12-2017 12:17 AM)Thegoldstandard Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 10:17 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Were all the Metro members at the same level in basketball? Louisville, Memphis, and Cincy were much better program than FSU, S Carolina, and Va Tech and way better than Tulane and USM
Before huggins Cincy was probably the worst program in the league. There was a time where the toughest place to play was at Va Tech. I remember them sweeping memphis and louisville in the same year. They had Steph Curry's dad during that time.
Tulane had some excellent teams back then. Louisville won the natty in 86 and Southern Miss followed in 87 with a nit title. It was a great league

I was going to say the same thing. Cincinnati's resurgence happened right around the time the Metro split. Louisville and Memphis were the only teams who were consiantly good during the Metro days. The others all had good stretches at times, but usually only three were any good at once.
09-13-2017 07:21 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
The story from 1994 about how Rutgers and WVU became full members and Temple and VT had to settle for the status quo is fascinating. Yet another instance where a big change could have occurred but didn't.

Let's say that the Big East football league did spin off in 1994. someone suggested that the ACC had the end goal of the ACC all along but would that 8 team group be able to augment itself with 4 ACC schools? What kind of money was the ACC getting at the time? Would CBS toss more money there way if they could deliver Florida St and friends?

Where does that leave the Basketball 6 (not to be confused with the Catholic 7)? Could DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, and Xavier/Dayton join them, wrecking the Great Midwest and forcing Cincinnati (&UAB?) back to the Metro?
09-13-2017 08:17 PM
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Post: #69
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-13-2017 06:41 PM)solohawks Wrote:  If the "CBS breakaway" would have occurred I suspect you would have seen the 8 football schools cash in on the championship game craze as well as cripple the soon to be CUSA by adding Louisville, Cincy, Memphis, and Houston. These programs would also help establish the breakaway league as a basketball power as well

Miami
VA Tech
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Houston

WVU
Temple
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC

I like it. Houston wouldn't be free until 1996 so I don't know that this materializes for the 1995 season. I wonder how Miami would feel about being in the weaker division and if the schools that joined the ACC in 2004/2005 would still be lured away?

Could the Big East football 8 perhaps aspire for more and seek out 4 ACC schools, raiding them before they did the same to them?

If your scenario worked out USM and Tulane would be looking for some new conference mates besides VCU, Charlotte, and USF. I wonder if they go the hybrid route or do they look for football schools like the 3 private SWC that went to the WAC?
09-13-2017 08:26 PM
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solohawks Online
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Post: #70
RE: Why did the Great Midwest Conference form?
(09-13-2017 08:26 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 06:41 PM)solohawks Wrote:  If the "CBS breakaway" would have occurred I suspect you would have seen the 8 football schools cash in on the championship game craze as well as cripple the soon to be CUSA by adding Louisville, Cincy, Memphis, and Houston. These programs would also help establish the breakaway league as a basketball power as well

Miami
VA Tech
Louisville
Cincy
Memphis
Houston

WVU
Temple
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
BC

I like it. Houston wouldn't be free until 1996 so I don't know that this materializes for the 1995 season. I wonder how Miami would feel about being in the weaker division and if the schools that joined the ACC in 2004/2005 would still be lured away?

Could the Big East football 8 perhaps aspire for more and seek out 4 ACC schools, raiding them before they did the same to them?

If your scenario worked out USM and Tulane would be looking for some new conference mates besides VCU, Charlotte, and USF. I wonder if they go the hybrid route or do they look for football schools like the 3 private SWC that went to the WAC?

In the early to mid 90s I distinctly remember the ACC being paid handsomely by ESPN and I believe they were the highest paid conference in terms of TV revenue as basketball still held its own. So I don't see any ACC schools leaving. Not too mention ACC schools are academically snobby especially back then.

If would have been interesting for Tulane and USM. The Breakaway league could certainly have managed for 1 year at 11 or maybe they take USM instead of Houston sending the Cougars to the WAC and leaving Tulsa out in the cold. Or the WAC 16 could have taken Houston and Tulane leaving San Jose St in the Big West but that would have made forced BYU and Utah in different quads so who that wouldn't have worked well.

Here is what I see happening.
Breakaway 8 add Louisville, Cincy, Memphis, and Tulane killing off CUSA before it gets started.

The Big East adds Notre Dame, Marquette, Depaul, and St Louis to get to 10.

Houston joins WAC 16 instead of Tulsa with the other SWC schools since no one is there to form CUSA football and they have no other options.

Tulsa stays in MVC, ECU in CAA, UCF in TAAC, La Tech, Ark St, and ULL in Sunbelt, and ULM and North Texas in the Southland all playing Indy football.

Non football Dayton and Xavier plus UAB join while Southern Miss stays in the Metro with non football Charlotte, VCU, and S Florida to keep those 7 schools in an auto bid conference.

Eventually the metro gets football going by uniting desirable southern independents and possibly WAC Texas schools after the MWC is formed.
09-13-2017 10:28 PM
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