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Stabilizing Obamacare
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solohawks Online
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Post: #31
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
So mach, are you saying if we don't continue to provide massive subsidies at their uncontrollable growth rate, the law will collapse? Does that not sound like a terrible law?
09-10-2017 12:08 PM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.

Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?

I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.

But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.

Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.

Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.

Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.

An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.
09-10-2017 12:50 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 12:50 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.
Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?
I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.
Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.

I don't think the Obamacare writers understood how insurance works. Or if they did understand, then they showed no reluctance to perpetrate a fraud on the American people.
09-10-2017 01:04 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Online
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Post: #34
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 09:15 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No the insurance rates were not sky rocketing when the D's had full control.

Because Obama care did not go into full effect until 2014. The 2010 Dems passed a bill which would not even hit it's full effect until two congressional elections would happen.

That's change you can put off onto a future congress.
09-10-2017 01:34 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #35
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 01:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:50 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(09-09-2017 11:26 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm willing to give the Frog the benefit of the doubt here, unlike the leftist dumbasses that usually post here.
Since you feel so strongly about this how exactly can this boondoggle be "fixed"?
I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.
Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.

I don't think the Obamacare writers understood how insurance works. Or if they did understand, then they showed no reluctance to perpetrate a fraud on the American people.

You mean like Social Security? In in the private sector an insurance product designed like Social Security is called a ponzi scheme and you go to jail. Congress has showed absolutely no problems perpertrating fraud on the American public.
09-10-2017 04:02 PM
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mptnstr@44 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 04:02 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 01:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:50 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 09:34 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  I think some of Kasich's and Hickenlooper's ideas are good. In general I could see a bipartisan deal which uses the basic Obamacare structure and adds some conservative ideas of more consumer choice and more flexibility of the states to experiment. I think some of their stabilization ideas in the insurance industry would go a long way. The uncertainty right now is as much a problem as anything. Once the insurance and medical industry knows "OK this is how it's going to be", you will see less volatility in rates. And because of Obamacare (to a lesser degree) and Medicare changes (MIPS and MACRA) you are seeing better efficiency and emphasis on quality and not quantity in the Medical field. So I think that will help bend the medical cost curve at the same time.
But the basic Obama structure is badly flawed. It combines the worst element of our former system--tying health insurance to employment--with the worst element of centralized systems--replacing the doctor-patient relationship with one size fits all bureaucratic fiat. It violates basic economic principles which have always shown themselves to be unable to be legislated away.
Obamacare also defies the laws of common sense.
Anyone who can do basic math could guess that allowing people to jump on to insurance when they are sick would cause costs to go up because those people end up being net takers. They never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
Additionally, allowing the old and chronically ill who are big users of healthcare to pay the same as young and healthy was also going to cause costs to go up because they are also net takers. That group will never pay in anywhere near what they take out.
An insurer has to offset the increased costs of those net takers to balance the books and they do so by charging the pool of non-takers higher premiums with higher deductibles so they pay in and get little to no benefit.

I don't think the Obamacare writers understood how insurance works. Or if they did understand, then they showed no reluctance to perpetrate a fraud on the American people.

You mean like Social Security? In in the private sector an insurance product designed like Social Security is called a ponzi scheme and you go to jail. Congress has showed absolutely no problems perpertrating fraud on the American public.

Indeed.
09-10-2017 05:49 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.
09-10-2017 06:01 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 06:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

link?

Someone said? Do you work for the New York Times or the Washington post? Rates increased after the democrats in full control of every branch of government passed this colostomy bag of a health bill.

Have you seen the rates? It's pretty incredible that you would think that rates haven't increased, but well, no it's not, you're a partisan hack.
09-10-2017 07:00 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 06:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

Obamacare was front loaded with the best features and back-loaded with the worst, so it was designed intentionally to produce the result you are asserting. The fact that the worst features began to show more after the first few years was the fault of democrats who wrote the bill, not anyone who came in later.

As for the costs themselves, insurance is nothing more than cost sharing. Instead of one person getting stuck with a bill that ruins him, you get 1000 people to kick in a tenth of a percent each. It was always going to be a zero sum game, at best. That's why CNN could show us all these people that Obamacare had helped, and Fox could show all those that it hurt. What Obamacare did was shift the pricing away from high-risk customers and onto low-risk. The problem is that too many in the low-risk group have figured out that they are getting screwed, so they are not paying the premiums needed to offset the undercharges to the high-risk group. It can't work.
09-10-2017 09:21 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #40
RE: Stabilizing Obamacare
(09-10-2017 06:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So it was a lie when someone said O Care rates were sky rocketing when D's had full control. Gotcha and anything past that is an opinion and opinions are not facts.

Wait, Obamacare rates havent been going up since the plan was implemented? Last time I checked Trump has been around for 8 months. All the reinsurance provisions and the subsidies were NEVER in doubt when Obama was president---but still the Obamcare rates were skyrocketing (along with all the private insurance rates that had to comply with Obamacare).......so, no,...that would NOT be a LIE. That would be a FACT...I know facts confuse you. So, let me explain.

A LIE would be something like saying "you can keep your doctor" or saying "EVERY family will save $2,500" when the reality is you cant keep your doctor and your premiums doubled or tripled. See the difference?
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2017 12:04 AM by Attackcoog.)
09-11-2017 12:02 AM
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