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Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
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Post: #21
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 01:01 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(08-27-2017 10:12 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  To be fair he got the info from the Feds. Major screw up by all parties involved.

The Governor of Texas was saying get out... Where were the feds saying that Houston would be ok?

It was a tossup. For most people, it will probably still be better to have stayed. But for others, they should have left. Conroe and much of Sugarland have evacuation orders today. Some of those people may not have any choice but to abandon their cars somewhere and go to a shelter.

Also, this is an extreme rain event more than a hurricane. Houston isn't really being impacted by other hurricane issues. The storm surge and winds haven't hit Houston. Those are what are most destructive. There have been a few tornados, but not as many as you often get with a direct hit.

We got info from a weatherman a few days back that it likely wouldn't be as bad as those "fake" e-mails. But it seems those e-mails were the extreme case and Houston may well get the extreme case.
08-28-2017 08:49 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 01:12 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 01:01 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(08-27-2017 10:12 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  To be fair he got the info from the Feds. Major screw up by all parties involved.

The Governor of Texas was saying get out... Where were the feds saying that Houston would be ok?

The Governor of Texas doesn't know squat. Google Rita Evacuation for a primer on it.

Where was he planning on SEVEN million people going? What routes would they take? Where would they stay while evacuated? How would that impact the people in mandatory evacuation zones trying to get out of the way of a cat 4 hurricane? How long did Governor Abbott think this evacuation would take? Does the state of Texas have a plan to evacuate Houston?

Yes, the state does have a plan. They developed it after Rita. Hopefully they keep it up to date. They forgot the traffic disaster after Hurricane Allen in 1980.
08-28-2017 08:52 AM
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Post: #23
Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
If they tried to evacuate 7 million you could have had people stuck in long traffic jams and running out of gas on the highway as this hit. Not to mention gas lines a mile long as people fill up before they leave. Evacuation would've been a nightmare.

And where would all of these people have gone for what will likely be days if not weeks?

It is hard to watch this from afar and easy to second guess but so far (knock on wood) Houston and surrounding have done a good job of handling it.

Considering the size of the area affected 5 fatalities is remarkable. I do expect that number will rise once the water recedes but even 20-30 out of 7 million and a record setting flood would be a very good result. As much as we might not like it people die in weather events like these. It is unavoidable.

You could have had more people die on the roads wrecking their cars trying to flee not to mention people panicking and fights breaking out etc. emergency responders need to respond to the flood victims not traffic jams.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2017 09:50 AM by mptnstr@44.)
08-28-2017 09:46 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was proneve to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Uh that nursing home is in Galveston County which is run by the Republicans. You're blaming a Mayor in another county and another city.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2017 10:24 AM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
08-28-2017 10:23 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 09:46 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  If they tried to evacuate 7 million you could have had people stuck in long traffic jams and running out of gas on the highway as this hit. Not to mention gas lines a mile long as people fill up before they leave. Evacuation would've been a nightmare.

And where would all of these people have gone for what will likely be days if not weeks?

It is hard to watch this from afar and easy to second guess but so far (knock on wood) Houston and surrounding have done a good job of handling it.

Considering the size of the area affected 5 fatalities is remarkable. I do expect that number will rise once the water recedes but even 20-30 out of 7 million and a record setting flood would be a very good result. As much as we might not like it people die in weather events like these. It is unavoidable.

You could have had more people die on the roads wrecking their cars trying to flee not to mention people panicking and fights breaking out etc. emergency responders need to respond to the flood victims not traffic jams.

And the vast majority of these deaths would be from......people who went out in this mess in their CARS.
08-28-2017 10:25 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 10:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was proneve to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Uh that nursing home is in Galveston County which is run by the Republicans. You're blaming a Mayor in another county and another city.

When did that happen? Galveston must have been the last county to turn Republican.

But you could blame Turner for Maxey Road. Lots of video on that early in the storm.
08-28-2017 10:34 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 10:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 10:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was proneve to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Uh that nursing home is in Galveston County which is run by the Republicans. You're blaming a Mayor in another county and another city.

When did that happen? Galveston must have been the last county to turn Republican.

But you could blame Turner for Maxey Road. Lots of video on that early in the storm.

Remember that the VAST majority of Galveston County's population is on the mainland. League City, Dickenson, Alvin, Texas City. Its a poor county for the region and outside of a part of Galveston and Freindswood, its doesn't have a lot of college grads. Its Trump Country.

Galveston County last gave a Democrat a majority in a national election in 1988 when a local candidate was on the ballot for Vice President. Before that, it was 1976.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2017 10:41 AM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
08-28-2017 10:40 AM
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Post: #28
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 10:40 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 10:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 10:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was proneve to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Uh that nursing home is in Galveston County which is run by the Republicans. You're blaming a Mayor in another county and another city.

When did that happen? Galveston must have been the last county to turn Republican.

But you could blame Turner for Maxey Road. Lots of video on that early in the storm.

Remember that the VAST majority of Galveston County's population is on the mainland. League City, Dickenson, Alvin, Texas City. Its a poor county for the region and outside of a part of Galveston and Freindswood, its doesn't have a lot of college grads. Its Trump Country.

Galveston County last gave a Democrat a majority in a national election in 1988 when a local candidate was on the ballot for Vice President. Before that, it was 1976.

But the local officials were ALL Democrats long after that. If commissioners court has changed, its been in the last 10 years or so as League City has grown. It traditionally was easily the most Democratic county in the Houston metro area.
08-28-2017 10:47 AM
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Post: #29
Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 10:25 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 09:46 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  If they tried to evacuate 7 million you could have had people stuck in long traffic jams and running out of gas on the highway as this hit. Not to mention gas lines a mile long as people fill up before they leave. Evacuation would've been a nightmare.

And where would all of these people have gone for what will likely be days if not weeks?

It is hard to watch this from afar and easy to second guess but so far (knock on wood) Houston and surrounding have done a good job of handling it.

Considering the size of the area affected 5 fatalities is remarkable. I do expect that number will rise once the water recedes but even 20-30 out of 7 million and a record setting flood would be a very good result. As much as we might not like it people die in weather events like these. It is unavoidable.

You could have had more people die on the roads wrecking their cars trying to flee not to mention people panicking and fights breaking out etc. emergency responders need to respond to the flood victims not traffic jams.

And the vast majority of these deaths would be from......people who went out in this mess in their CARS.

Yes. If people prepare for what could happen (worst case scenarios) and shelter in place they have a high likelihood of survival.

If you don't prepare, panic and/or do something stupid (like drive into high water) you are putting your life into unnecessary risk at the mercy of Mother Nature.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2017 10:47 AM by mptnstr@44.)
08-28-2017 10:47 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was prone to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Again, the storm hit hundreds of miles to the south. During a normal hurricane it would have hit and even if it veered northeast, it would have gone north and been over within a day or two. While it was thought it may circle around, it wasn't guaranteed to nor did anyone expect it to be that severe. As someone else said, hindsight is 20/20. Based on history, the mayor was right.
08-28-2017 11:00 AM
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Post: #31
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 11:00 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was prone to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Again, the storm hit hundreds of miles to the south. During a normal hurricane it would have hit and even if it veered northeast, it would have gone north and been over within a day or two. While it was thought it may circle around, it wasn't guaranteed to nor did anyone expect it to be that severe. As someone else said, hindsight is 20/20. Based on history, the mayor was right.

The Houston area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Why people are concerned about where the Hurricane goes is beyond me. I dont care if it goes 300 miles to the north, if Houston is project to get 20-30 of inches of rain, you start voluntary evacuations and you evacuate people from the areas that will be impacted by controlled released from the reservoirs.

You dont need to move 7 million people. But you do want as many people as possible to get out of the low lying areas and into higher areas in Houston, while they can. And while you can do it by bus and not by boat. You dont need millions of people travelling to Dallas or Austin. You just want the population to get to higher ground inside the city. Telling them to shelter in place when they are in direct path of the reservoir release is just stupid.
08-28-2017 11:38 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
I've only been to Houston once in my life so my question is: Is there higher ground in Houston? I've never heard of it having hills or mountains. Personally, if I lived there I would have done the same thing that I did when I heard of Hurricane Allen hitting Corpus I would have sent my family out if I was working as a first responder if not then I'd be heading out with them. Family is more important and their safety as a father is job one. You don't do it at the last minute is what I'm trying to say.
08-28-2017 12:06 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was prone to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

The area where all the rescues took place on Sunday wasnt really an area thats considered prone to flooding. The problem is Houston is basically flat. Rain hard enough long enough in any one area and its going to flood. There is just no way to know whats going to flood because you'd have to know exactly where the bands are going to set up. Look, the real key is keeping souls alive. So far, we've had to rescue people---but that can be done. When we had the evacuation, as many as 100 Houstonians died on the road during the exodus. So far, only 2 people have died in the floods (knock on wood). I think he made the right decision. The key is getting people to shelter in place and stay off the darn roads until they are clear enough to travel safely.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2017 12:34 PM by Attackcoog.)
08-28-2017 12:28 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
@UofMstateU

Again, the hurricane hit nowhere near the city. There's no possible way to evacuate 3-4 million people (people in the most vulnerable spots) within two days. There was no guarantee it would hit where it did. It's much safer for people to be in their homes or inside than on the road ways, which have flooded. At least inside they have shelter from the rain and presumably food and water.

And again, every place in every direction from the city was drenched and many areas flooded. They'd be caught in it no matter what. It's better to hunker down and wait it out.
08-28-2017 12:29 PM
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RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 12:06 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I've only been to Houston once in my life so my question is: Is there higher ground in Houston? I've never heard of it having hills or mountains. Personally, if I lived there I would have done the same thing that I did when I heard of Hurricane Allen hitting Corpus I would have sent my family out if I was working as a first responder if not then I'd be heading out with them. Family is more important and their safety as a father is job one. You don't do it at the last minute is what I'm trying to say.

There's higher ground in the sense of some areas are higher than others, similar to New Orleans. Some areas are in flood plains, which never should have been settled. It's worst than Johnstown, PA in some spots. No mountains or hills till you get farther north in a few suburbs.
08-28-2017 12:34 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 12:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @UofMstateU

Again, the hurricane hit nowhere near the city.

And again, I said forget the hurricane. This had little to do with the hurricane. It had everything to do with the rain forecast of 20-30 inches.

Quote:There's no possible way to evacuate 3-4 million people (people in the most vulnerable spots) within two days.

And there was no need to. But if you know that areas in Houston are going to get 20-30 inches of rain, then there are certain sections you need to have evacuated, especially those in the controlled release areas. These people can go to family members houses that are away from the release areas, which many are now once they a plucked by boat or chopper and moved to a staging interstate thats open where their families can get to them. Those who couldnt evacuate on their own in those areas you open up shelters and get them there by bus prior to the storm hitting. You simply want the 10,000 people in the most vulnerable areas to be out of those areas so you can concentrate post efforts elsewhere.

One woman was particularly mad because she had just moved into one of the areas in the release zone last week, so she had no idea that it would be so severely impacted. And she had the ability to evacuate because she owned a car. But she was told to shelter in place. Now she's stuck, and likely will have a worthless car after this since only about the top 4 inches is now in view.
08-28-2017 01:04 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 12:06 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I've only been to Houston once in my life so my question is: Is there higher ground in Houston? I've never heard of it having hills or mountains. Personally, if I lived there I would have done the same thing that I did when I heard of Hurricane Allen hitting Corpus I would have sent my family out if I was working as a first responder if not then I'd be heading out with them. Family is more important and their safety as a father is job one. You don't do it at the last minute is what I'm trying to say.

High ground-there's the Westpark overpass over the railroad tracks.04-cheers
08-28-2017 01:16 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 11:38 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 11:00 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was prone to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Again, the storm hit hundreds of miles to the south. During a normal hurricane it would have hit and even if it veered northeast, it would have gone north and been over within a day or two. While it was thought it may circle around, it wasn't guaranteed to nor did anyone expect it to be that severe. As someone else said, hindsight is 20/20. Based on history, the mayor was right.

The Houston area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Why people are concerned about where the Hurricane goes is beyond me. I dont care if it goes 300 miles to the north, if Houston is project to get 20-30 of inches of rain, you start voluntary evacuations and you evacuate people from the areas that will be impacted by controlled released from the reservoirs.

You dont need to move 7 million people. But you do want as many people as possible to get out of the low lying areas and into higher areas in Houston, while they can. And while you can do it by bus and not by boat. You dont need millions of people travelling to Dallas or Austin. You just want the population to get to higher ground inside the city. Telling them to shelter in place when they are in direct path of the reservoir release is just stupid.

Where the hurricane goes does matter. It had 130 mph sustained winds which is the equivalent of a tornado. And the storm surge comes very quick and prevents water from draining, whereas these rain floodwaters take time to build up and have the opportunity to drain.

With a direct hit from a slow moving category 5 heading up I-45 (this was a 4-Allen in 1980 was a 5), pretty much all of Galveston County, Brazoria County and much of Southeast Harris County would become part of the Gulf of Mexico with the storm surge.

Indianola in Calhoun County was the 4th largest city in Texas, after Galveston, San Antonio and Houston, when it got devasted by a hurricane in 1875. Another one in 1886 destroyed everything in town and it was abandoned. Galveston was the 3rd largest in Texas in 1900, just behind Houston and Dallas. The hurricane of 1900 killed 6,000 people and Galveston never again was a major city while the rest of Texas took off. By contrast, San Antonio and Houston have had many floods over the years, but always bounce back. Replacing sheetrock is easier than replacing a flattened building or a person.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2017 01:31 PM by bullet.)
08-28-2017 01:30 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-28-2017 11:38 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 11:00 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(08-28-2017 07:58 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  He didnt need to evacuate 7 million people. He should have evacuated those in the most flood prone areas who could not evacuate themselves (such as the now famous nursing home. Not saying that was in Houston or his fault, just saying any place like that in Houston that was prone to flooding and where the occupants could not evacuate themselves ) instead of trying to do it during the flood. They also needed to show maps where flooding was most likely to occur, so those people could relocate temporarily to family members on higher ground prior to the storm hitting. The area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Its Houston. You know parts of it are going to be under ten feet of water.

Again, the storm hit hundreds of miles to the south. During a normal hurricane it would have hit and even if it veered northeast, it would have gone north and been over within a day or two. While it was thought it may circle around, it wasn't guaranteed to nor did anyone expect it to be that severe. As someone else said, hindsight is 20/20. Based on history, the mayor was right.

The Houston area was projected to get 20-30 inches of rain. Why people are concerned about where the Hurricane goes is beyond me. I dont care if it goes 300 miles to the north, if Houston is project to get 20-30 of inches of rain, you start voluntary evacuations and you evacuate people from the areas that will be impacted by controlled released from the reservoirs.

You dont need to move 7 million people. But you do want as many people as possible to get out of the low lying areas and into higher areas in Houston, while they can. And while you can do it by bus and not by boat. You dont need millions of people travelling to Dallas or Austin. You just want the population to get to higher ground inside the city. Telling them to shelter in place when they are in direct path of the reservoir release is just stupid.

There is no 'higher ground' in Houston. The entire city is prone to flooding, depending upon which particular bayou watershed gets the most rain.

Even today, I predict fewer deaths by those not in cars than during the epic fail of the Rita evacuation.

Also please note. People are ordered to leave low lying areas from hurricane surge because its less dangerous to order them to flee. But if you clog the roads with people who are better off staying in place, those people who do need to flee - can't.

When this is all done, the number of people drowning in cars will probably far exceed those who died of any other cause. A hundred people died in the Rita evacuation.
08-28-2017 01:49 PM
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RE: Wait so the Houston Mayor told people to stick around they would be fine?
(08-27-2017 10:25 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(08-27-2017 10:17 PM)Kronke Wrote:  We could do without the 20/20 hindsight and finger pointing. Everyone who's anyone agreed with Mayor Turner. Evacuating ~5 million people is a logistical nightmare and would have turned the highways (which are currently under 20 feet of water) into parking lots. Hurricanes don't typically sit in the same spot for 3 days, circle back into the gulf, and then come again.
Prayers for Houston. Hope you are ok.

I agree. Can't really blame the mayor with this one. The Houston area was screwed no matter what. It was either sit in your car and get flooded or sit in your house and get flooded.
08-28-2017 01:55 PM
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