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In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #41
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 03:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:29 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 02:00 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 12:04 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 11:18 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The Big East is not likely to sponsor football ever again, especially considering who the current available G5 members are in order for that to happen. The best-case scenario, for the Big East, would be for Fox to to make a deal for UConn to move to the Big East and get up to 11 members for a round-robin schedule for 20 conference games. If Fox could create a financial incentive for UConn to move, especially for football with bowl-tie ins as an independent, it would improve the value of the Big East, and get UConn back to a conference with more regional rivals.

You're thinking the Big East of the past few years and not the future.

The future is pulling even with the AAC in NCAA tournament credits since they are adding Wichita State.

If the BE is a 3 bid conference in 10 years time and an FBS/D1 split is decided upon they may have no choice but to reconsider adding FB to stay relevant.

Bids by Conference (even if you now retroactively now include Wichita State into the American) the past three years:

2017
Big East: 7
American: 3

2016
Big East: 5
American: 5

2015:
Big East: 6
American: 3

Since the split, the Big East has averaged over 50% of its conference in the tournament, whereas the American (without Wichita State) was lucky to get over 33% in. With East Carolina, Tulane, USF, UCF and Houston all yet to make the tournament while in the American (5/12 schools), the Big East has had 90% of the conference make the tournament in that same time frame.

Considering the historical and present success from all of the programs currently within the Big East, it is very unlikely that they will only be averaging three bids per year in a decade. Villanova, Marquette and Georgetown are averaging an appearance every other year (over thirty total appearances), while Creighton, Xavier, Providence and St. Johns all have more than twenty total appearances. Butler has also made two championship game appearances in the past decade. Basically, a whole lot of historical and present trends would need to change - and, considering the way recruiting has been - it does not appear to be headed that way.

07-coffee3

Big East is a situation where you've placed a lot of programs that have a lot of recent success in the same conference.

A few scandals, coaches fired for shady things and its not as strong.

The best scenario for the Big East is if there is NO split. There is in the event of a split very real prospects that non-FB conferences would not be allowed.

The Coastal Carolina's and Charlotte's are in a better strategic position as FBS members than non-FBS D1 in the event of a split.

At least if the Big East had to do it....its strong enough to attract 8 decent G5 members to reconstruct and FBS conference and stay in the game. WCC has 10 members and 1 FBS so only needs 7.

The A10 however while it has 1 FBS member the most likely trajectory there is for St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, UMass to go the AAC route while the St. Bonaventure's and St. Joe's are left behind. At one time it might have worked to form an FBS conference when Temple, WVU and VT were in there but now it's unworkable.

1. BIG EAST schools have been relevant for decades. For instance, some of the best storylines of the 80's involved Georgetown and St. John's.

2. The BIG EAST has a TV contract on par w/ the ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, and Big XII, a tourney in MSG, and a top-tier NCAAT payout. The BE also has an elite footprint for basketball recruiting and a laser focus on the game. They aren't going away.

If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.
08-26-2017 04:00 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #42
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:29 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 02:00 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 12:04 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  You're thinking the Big East of the past few years and not the future.

The future is pulling even with the AAC in NCAA tournament credits since they are adding Wichita State.

If the BE is a 3 bid conference in 10 years time and an FBS/D1 split is decided upon they may have no choice but to reconsider adding FB to stay relevant.

Bids by Conference (even if you now retroactively now include Wichita State into the American) the past three years:

2017
Big East: 7
American: 3

2016
Big East: 5
American: 5

2015:
Big East: 6
American: 3

Since the split, the Big East has averaged over 50% of its conference in the tournament, whereas the American (without Wichita State) was lucky to get over 33% in. With East Carolina, Tulane, USF, UCF and Houston all yet to make the tournament while in the American (5/12 schools), the Big East has had 90% of the conference make the tournament in that same time frame.

Considering the historical and present success from all of the programs currently within the Big East, it is very unlikely that they will only be averaging three bids per year in a decade. Villanova, Marquette and Georgetown are averaging an appearance every other year (over thirty total appearances), while Creighton, Xavier, Providence and St. Johns all have more than twenty total appearances. Butler has also made two championship game appearances in the past decade. Basically, a whole lot of historical and present trends would need to change - and, considering the way recruiting has been - it does not appear to be headed that way.

07-coffee3

Big East is a situation where you've placed a lot of programs that have a lot of recent success in the same conference.

A few scandals, coaches fired for shady things and its not as strong.

The best scenario for the Big East is if there is NO split. There is in the event of a split very real prospects that non-FB conferences would not be allowed.

The Coastal Carolina's and Charlotte's are in a better strategic position as FBS members than non-FBS D1 in the event of a split.

At least if the Big East had to do it....its strong enough to attract 8 decent G5 members to reconstruct and FBS conference and stay in the game. WCC has 10 members and 1 FBS so only needs 7.

The A10 however while it has 1 FBS member the most likely trajectory there is for St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, UMass to go the AAC route while the St. Bonaventure's and St. Joe's are left behind. At one time it might have worked to form an FBS conference when Temple, WVU and VT were in there but now it's unworkable.

1. BIG EAST schools have been relevant for decades. For instance, some of the best storylines of the 80's involved Georgetown and St. John's.

2. The BIG EAST has a TV contract on par w/ the ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, and Big XII, a tourney in MSG, and a top-tier NCAAT payout. The BE also has an elite footprint for basketball recruiting and a laser focus on the game. They aren't going away.

If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.

The BIG EAST makes "P5" money and has extensive history w/ "P5" programs.

P5 is a stupid, made-up term. So yes, the BE is technically not a "P5" conference, but it has a lot in common w/ them.
08-26-2017 04:06 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #43
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:06 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:29 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 02:00 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Bids by Conference (even if you now retroactively now include Wichita State into the American) the past three years:

2017
Big East: 7
American: 3

2016
Big East: 5
American: 5

2015:
Big East: 6
American: 3

Since the split, the Big East has averaged over 50% of its conference in the tournament, whereas the American (without Wichita State) was lucky to get over 33% in. With East Carolina, Tulane, USF, UCF and Houston all yet to make the tournament while in the American (5/12 schools), the Big East has had 90% of the conference make the tournament in that same time frame.

Considering the historical and present success from all of the programs currently within the Big East, it is very unlikely that they will only be averaging three bids per year in a decade. Villanova, Marquette and Georgetown are averaging an appearance every other year (over thirty total appearances), while Creighton, Xavier, Providence and St. Johns all have more than twenty total appearances. Butler has also made two championship game appearances in the past decade. Basically, a whole lot of historical and present trends would need to change - and, considering the way recruiting has been - it does not appear to be headed that way.

07-coffee3

Big East is a situation where you've placed a lot of programs that have a lot of recent success in the same conference.

A few scandals, coaches fired for shady things and its not as strong.

The best scenario for the Big East is if there is NO split. There is in the event of a split very real prospects that non-FB conferences would not be allowed.

The Coastal Carolina's and Charlotte's are in a better strategic position as FBS members than non-FBS D1 in the event of a split.

At least if the Big East had to do it....its strong enough to attract 8 decent G5 members to reconstruct and FBS conference and stay in the game. WCC has 10 members and 1 FBS so only needs 7.

The A10 however while it has 1 FBS member the most likely trajectory there is for St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, UMass to go the AAC route while the St. Bonaventure's and St. Joe's are left behind. At one time it might have worked to form an FBS conference when Temple, WVU and VT were in there but now it's unworkable.

1. BIG EAST schools have been relevant for decades. For instance, some of the best storylines of the 80's involved Georgetown and St. John's.

2. The BIG EAST has a TV contract on par w/ the ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, and Big XII, a tourney in MSG, and a top-tier NCAAT payout. The BE also has an elite footprint for basketball recruiting and a laser focus on the game. They aren't going away.

If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.

The BIG EAST makes "P5" money and has extensive history w/ "P5" programs.

P5 is a stupid, made-up term. So yes, the BE is technically not a "P5" conference, but it has a lot in common w/ them.

What matters is if you have FBS football or if you don't in this discussion.

07-coffee3
08-26-2017 04:10 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #44
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:06 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:29 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Big East is a situation where you've placed a lot of programs that have a lot of recent success in the same conference.

A few scandals, coaches fired for shady things and its not as strong.

The best scenario for the Big East is if there is NO split. There is in the event of a split very real prospects that non-FB conferences would not be allowed.

The Coastal Carolina's and Charlotte's are in a better strategic position as FBS members than non-FBS D1 in the event of a split.

At least if the Big East had to do it....its strong enough to attract 8 decent G5 members to reconstruct and FBS conference and stay in the game. WCC has 10 members and 1 FBS so only needs 7.

The A10 however while it has 1 FBS member the most likely trajectory there is for St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, UMass to go the AAC route while the St. Bonaventure's and St. Joe's are left behind. At one time it might have worked to form an FBS conference when Temple, WVU and VT were in there but now it's unworkable.

1. BIG EAST schools have been relevant for decades. For instance, some of the best storylines of the 80's involved Georgetown and St. John's.

2. The BIG EAST has a TV contract on par w/ the ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, and Big XII, a tourney in MSG, and a top-tier NCAAT payout. The BE also has an elite footprint for basketball recruiting and a laser focus on the game. They aren't going away.

If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.

The BIG EAST makes "P5" money and has extensive history w/ "P5" programs.

P5 is a stupid, made-up term. So yes, the BE is technically not a "P5" conference, but it has a lot in common w/ them.

What matters is if you have FBS football or if you don't in this discussion.

07-coffee3

Why? You were talking about the "P5" breaking away and, amongst other things, holding its own basketball tournament. What does that have to do w/ fielding a football team?
08-26-2017 04:14 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #45
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.
08-26-2017 04:18 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #46
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.

It's only legally new. You're making it sound like St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall started playing each other in the same basketball conference 3 years ago. They didn't.

The same goes for DePaul and Marquette.

Xavier, Butler, and Creighton were added. But by that metric, all the "P5's" are new. And it's not like Xavier, Creighton, and Butler are nobodies w/ only inconsequential backing.

Also, you're wrong about resources. I think that the gap between the BE and the #7th conference widened since the split.
08-26-2017 04:26 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #47
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:14 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:06 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. BIG EAST schools have been relevant for decades. For instance, some of the best storylines of the 80's involved Georgetown and St. John's.

2. The BIG EAST has a TV contract on par w/ the ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, and Big XII, a tourney in MSG, and a top-tier NCAAT payout. The BE also has an elite footprint for basketball recruiting and a laser focus on the game. They aren't going away.

If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.

The BIG EAST makes "P5" money and has extensive history w/ "P5" programs.

P5 is a stupid, made-up term. So yes, the BE is technically not a "P5" conference, but it has a lot in common w/ them.

What matters is if you have FBS football or if you don't in this discussion.

07-coffee3

Why? You were talking about the "P5" breaking away and, amongst other things, holding its own basketball tournament. What does that have to do w/ fielding a football team?

Duke and Syracuse have more secure athletic futures because they have football than St. John's and Villanova. That is pretty obvious.

Xavier is the only program in the Big East that has been consistently good for the past 3 decades. Providence, Seton Hall and St. John's usually struggle. Its not a group of elite basketball schools.
08-26-2017 04:26 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Online
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Post: #48
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:06 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 03:29 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Big East is a situation where you've placed a lot of programs that have a lot of recent success in the same conference.

A few scandals, coaches fired for shady things and its not as strong.

The best scenario for the Big East is if there is NO split. There is in the event of a split very real prospects that non-FB conferences would not be allowed.

The Coastal Carolina's and Charlotte's are in a better strategic position as FBS members than non-FBS D1 in the event of a split.

At least if the Big East had to do it....its strong enough to attract 8 decent G5 members to reconstruct and FBS conference and stay in the game. WCC has 10 members and 1 FBS so only needs 7.

The A10 however while it has 1 FBS member the most likely trajectory there is for St. Louis, Dayton, VCU, UMass to go the AAC route while the St. Bonaventure's and St. Joe's are left behind. At one time it might have worked to form an FBS conference when Temple, WVU and VT were in there but now it's unworkable.

1. BIG EAST schools have been relevant for decades. For instance, some of the best storylines of the 80's involved Georgetown and St. John's.

2. The BIG EAST has a TV contract on par w/ the ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, and Big XII, a tourney in MSG, and a top-tier NCAAT payout. The BE also has an elite footprint for basketball recruiting and a laser focus on the game. They aren't going away.

If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.

The BIG EAST makes "P5" money and has extensive history w/ "P5" programs.

P5 is a stupid, made-up term. So yes, the BE is technically not a "P5" conference, but it has a lot in common w/ them.

What matters is if you have FBS football or if you don't in this discussion.

07-coffee3

"Big East is a situation where you've placed a lot of programs that have a lot of recent success in the same conference."

I don't understand what you mean by this. Yes, the Big East has been very successful in recent years, especially since the split. Yes, the Big East - and its current membership - was also successful before that. Due to this, there is potential that it will not last??? I don't follow...

"A few scandals, coaches fired for shady things and its not as strong."

UNC is under investigation for scandal. Louisville just got in trouble for supplying prostitutes to recruits within its basketball program. Syracuse got hit a number of years ago. None of those programs are in danger of being left behind, or even having their brand tarnished or devalued. Scandals and college athletics are a yearly occurrence. However, having said that, when was the last time that any current Big East member got penalized by the NCAA in men's basketball? When was the last scandal that impacted their on-court product? Ignoring current trends and the current landscape of NCAA compliance, history just does not support that statement. Once again, I don't follow...

"The best scenario for the Big East is if there is NO split. There is in the event of a split very real prospects that non-FB conferences would not be allowed.

The Coastal Carolina's and Charlotte's are in a better strategic position as FBS members than non-FBS D1 in the event of a split."

Coastal Carolina and Charlotte do not have built-in relationships with members of the P5, where the current membership of the Big East does. Years ago, there was a belief that the non-football structure of the Big East would eliminate it from being able to still compete at the top level of college basketball. That has clearly been established that the notion is not the case. The Big East is the only "non-P5" in basketball that schedules alongside that structure. Clearly, the P5 view them as equals in basketball.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2017 04:31 PM by GoldenWarrior11.)
08-26-2017 04:26 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #49
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.

It's only legally new. You're making it sound like St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall started playing each other in the same basketball conference 3 years ago. They didn't.

The same goes for DePaul and Marquette.

Xavier, Butler, and Creighton were added. But by that metric, all the "P5's" are new. And it's not like Xavier, Creighton, and Butler are nobodies w/ only inconsequential backing.

Also, you're wrong about resources. I think that the gap between the BE and the #7th conference widened since the split.

Definitely wrong on overall athletic budgets. Most are in the same range as the Big East. AAC is much larger.

G5 haven't yet maximized resources toward basketball like they have at this point toward football.

Once they do more at-large worthy programs will emerge from the G5 which will cut into Big East recruiting.
08-26-2017 04:31 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #50
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:14 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:06 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:00 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If there is a split though, which is a hypothetical it will be along P5 lines or FBS lines of which the Big East is neither.

The BIG EAST makes "P5" money and has extensive history w/ "P5" programs.

P5 is a stupid, made-up term. So yes, the BE is technically not a "P5" conference, but it has a lot in common w/ them.

What matters is if you have FBS football or if you don't in this discussion.

07-coffee3

Why? You were talking about the "P5" breaking away and, amongst other things, holding its own basketball tournament. What does that have to do w/ fielding a football team?

Duke and Syracuse have more secure athletic futures because they have football than St. John's and Villanova. That is pretty obvious.

Xavier is the only program in the Big East that has been consistently good for the past 3 decades. Providence, Seton Hall and St. John's usually struggle. Its not a group of elite basketball schools.

Duke and Syracuse have a more secure athletic future than most of the"P5," and they would have a more secure future than St. John's and Nova irregardless of whether or not they played future. And FWIW, Duke and SU BB is what's keeping Duke and SU FB off the ropes right now.

Calling the BE anything but a group of elite basketball schools is crazy.

I've seen Michigan football down. I've seen ND football down. I've seen Texas football down. I've seen Alabama football down. I've seen Oklahoma football down. I've seen Tennessee football down.

....and all of that was in the last 30 years (most in the last 10-15 years). Are all of those programs not elite? And if they aren't, who is?
08-26-2017 04:32 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Online
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Post: #51
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.

Under the same logic, the SEC and B1G are not guaranteed to be around in 25 or 30 years.

Who is a non-football member in the SBC? If you are referencing Coastal Carolina in the SBC, they are full members starting this year. Idaho and New Mexico State weren't asked to stay beyond 2017 in football. The American has only one non-football member in Wichita State, who just joined (and balanced out the membership of Navy's football-only).

If anything that shows that the hybrid is dead/dying, not growing/thriving...
08-26-2017 04:39 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #52
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.

It's only legally new. You're making it sound like St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall started playing each other in the same basketball conference 3 years ago. They didn't.

The same goes for DePaul and Marquette.

Xavier, Butler, and Creighton were added. But by that metric, all the "P5's" are new. And it's not like Xavier, Creighton, and Butler are nobodies w/ only inconsequential backing.

Also, you're wrong about resources. I think that the gap between the BE and the #7th conference widened since the split.

Definitely wrong on overall athletic budgets. Most are in the same range as the Big East. AAC is much larger.

G5 haven't yet maximized resources toward basketball like they have at this point toward football.

Once they do more at-large worthy programs will emerge from the G5 which will cut into Big East recruiting.

If you're looking st athletic budgets, you're in left field because you're inflating one conference's costs by including football. Do an apples to apples comparission and get back to me.

What do you mean when you say "maximized their resources?" Do you think schools are purposely sitting on opportunity for the sake of not making money? If so, why?

Which "G5" schools are going to start stealing recruits from NYC, DC, and Chicago?
(W/ a heavy emphasis on NYC and D.C. because they probably feed the BE more than Chicago)
08-26-2017 04:41 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #53
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
What you are trying to tell me then is a conference with the following P5 members then is no better than the Big East?

UCLA
Arizona
Kansas
Indiana
Michigan St.
Kentucky
Florida
Syracuse
North Carolina
Duke

This is equal to this?

Creighton
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
Xavier
Georgetown
Villanova
Seton Hall
Providence

You've got to be kidding yourself. Several of those Big East programs have gone through large stretches of futility in the past 30 years. Long term its a 3-4 bid conference not a 6-7 bid conference.
08-26-2017 04:44 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #54
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:44 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  What you are trying to tell me then is a conference with the following P5 members then is no better than the Big East?

UCLA
Arizona
Kansas
Indiana
Michigan St.
Kentucky
Florida
Syracuse
North Carolina
Duke

This is equal to this?

Creighton
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
Xavier
Georgetown
Villanova
Seton Hall
Providence

You've got to be kidding yourself. Several of those Big East programs have gone through large stretches of futility in the past 30 years. Long term its a 3-4 bid conference not a 6-7 bid conference.

What conference has that membership?
08-26-2017 04:45 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #55
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.

It's only legally new. You're making it sound like St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall started playing each other in the same basketball conference 3 years ago. They didn't.

The same goes for DePaul and Marquette.

Xavier, Butler, and Creighton were added. But by that metric, all the "P5's" are new. And it's not like Xavier, Creighton, and Butler are nobodies w/ only inconsequential backing.

Also, you're wrong about resources. I think that the gap between the BE and the #7th conference widened since the split.

Definitely wrong on overall athletic budgets. Most are in the same range as the Big East. AAC is much larger.

G5 haven't yet maximized resources toward basketball like they have at this point toward football.

Once they do more at-large worthy programs will emerge from the G5 which will cut into Big East recruiting.

If you're looking st athletic budgets, you're in left field because you're inflating one conference's costs by including football. Do an apples to apples comparission and get back to me.

What do you mean when you say "maximized their resources?" Do you think schools are purposely sitting on opportunity for the sake of not making money? If so, why?

Which "G5" schools are going to start stealing recruits from NYC, DC, and Chicago?
(W/ a heavy emphasis on NYC and D.C. because they probably feed the BE more than Chicago)

G5 has promoted up several new programs in recent years.

CUSA for example has added members with a lot of historical basketball success but at the moment is under performing.

AAC adding Wichita St will likely mean not 1 but 2 more bids for the AAC with greater depth.

MWC is down at the moment but a lot of tradition there.

MAC salaries are now double the MVC.

SBC new programs that haven't built out their programs yet.

Do these programs tap into Big East recruiting grounds? I don't think it will be that as much as more distance on FCS programs and stronger overall play relative to other conferences.

Big East is lightning in a bottle plain and simple.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2017 04:55 PM by Kittonhead.)
08-26-2017 04:54 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #56
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:54 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 04:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just because the Big East basketball only conference is new doesn't mean it has a future 25 or 30 years down the road.

G5 conferences are growing more rapidly in resources. They are bigger schools with more alumni. They have the added benefit of better facilities built for football.

The SBC and AAC will both sport non-FB playing members this year. Who is to say the hybrid is dead? Its dead in the Big East at the moment but things can change.

It's only legally new. You're making it sound like St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, and Seton Hall started playing each other in the same basketball conference 3 years ago. They didn't.

The same goes for DePaul and Marquette.

Xavier, Butler, and Creighton were added. But by that metric, all the "P5's" are new. And it's not like Xavier, Creighton, and Butler are nobodies w/ only inconsequential backing.

Also, you're wrong about resources. I think that the gap between the BE and the #7th conference widened since the split.

Definitely wrong on overall athletic budgets. Most are in the same range as the Big East. AAC is much larger.

G5 haven't yet maximized resources toward basketball like they have at this point toward football.

Once they do more at-large worthy programs will emerge from the G5 which will cut into Big East recruiting.

If you're looking st athletic budgets, you're in left field because you're inflating one conference's costs by including football. Do an apples to apples comparission and get back to me.

What do you mean when you say "maximized their resources?" Do you think schools are purposely sitting on opportunity for the sake of not making money? If so, why?

Which "G5" schools are going to start stealing recruits from NYC, DC, and Chicago?
(W/ a heavy emphasis on NYC and D.C. because they probably feed the BE more than Chicago)

G5 has promoted up several new programs in recent years.

CUSA for example has added members with a lot of historical basketball success but at the moment is under performing.

AAC adding Wichita St will likely mean not 1 but 2 more bids for the AAC with greater depth.

MWC is down at the moment but a lot of tradition there.

MAC salaries are now double the MVC.

SBC new programs that haven't built out their programs yet.

Do these programs tap into Big East recruiting grounds? I don't think it will be that as much as more distance on FCS programs and stronger overall play relative to other conferences.

Big East is lightning in a bottle plain and simple.
You're just making stuff up. Who is in the CUSA/MAC/MVC and has a history that can match Villanova? Marquette? Georgetown? Xavier?

And they're wicked down right now, but you can probably add St. John's to that list if you're looking at history. And they're a late- omer, but you can probably add Butler, too.

Who can match Creighton's fan support?

And why do you think that the Sun Belt has any bearing on BIG EAST basketball? There has, is, and for the foreseeable future will be a dramatic gap between the leagues, and there's no appreciable recruiting overlap. If anything, the Sun Belt rising will keep the CUSA down.

And why do you keep calling the BIG EAST a flash in the pan? Those schools have collectively been good since the 80's, and individually good since before that. 40-50 years isn't a flash in the pan or lightning in a bottle.

And what does fcs have to do with basketball? It's a football-only distinction.

And adding WSU will add less than one bid, not 2. They can only make the tourney once a year, and they won't make it every year, only most years.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2017 05:07 PM by nzmorange.)
08-26-2017 05:05 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #57
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 03:55 PM)JRsec Wrote:  If a breakaway occurs, the schools that the networks are willing to pay for will make the move.

Any idea as to which schools some of those might be?
08-26-2017 05:49 PM
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Post: #58
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 04:44 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  What you are trying to tell me then is a conference with the following P5 members then is no better than the Big East?

UCLA
Arizona
Kansas
Indiana
Michigan St.
Kentucky
Florida
Syracuse
North Carolina
Duke

This is equal to this?

Creighton
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
Xavier
Georgetown
Villanova
Seton Hall
Providence

You've got to be kidding yourself. Several of those Big East programs have gone through large stretches of futility in the past 30 years. Long term its a 3-4 bid conference not a 6-7 bid conference.

Where is that conference from? And yes, that is a better conference than the Big East, but it is also better than any current conference as well.

Kitton, you clearly do not have high expectations for the Big East, but you are also not acknowledging its past or current success either. You believe that the G5 will take away bids from the Big East, but the on-court results and recruiting through today do not support that. You say that the G5 will soon be investing in more facilities that will surpass that of the Big East's. Well, Georgetown just opened the John Thompson Jr. Center on campus for the basketball program. Providence just announced a new practice facility as well. DePaul is opening a new arena in downtown Chicago in November. Marquette will be playing in the brand new Bucks arena next year. All of the Big East teams currently, and will continue to play in, NBA-sized arenas.

I have no doubt that you believe the Big East is doomed to take a significant step back, but the evidence, the history, and the current trends simply do not support that.
08-26-2017 05:54 PM
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Post: #59
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 01:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So the point of this thread was not so much to discuss the feasibility of such a breakaway, but rather, assuming that it did happen and only took maybe half of the current P5 schools, who would make the cut? Anyone want to take a stab at that?

Based on current circumstances... if there were a breakaway they would take all of FBS. They likely craft some criteria to pick up a few FCS and non-football leagues getting their renegade association to around 180 to 200.

Though it would easier to just adjust the membership criteria for Division I.
08-26-2017 10:52 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #60
RE: In the Event of a Partial P5 College Football Breakaway, Who Makes the Cut?
(08-26-2017 03:55 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-25-2017 11:22 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So in the event that, somewhere in the not-too-distant future, the best NCAA football programs do break away from the rest and either create their own new division within NCAA or a separate organization, who makes the cut?

I'd venture that 32 programs might make it, one for each NFL team. A one-to-one affiliation system could develop like that which already exists in baseball. I'm not sure about all the teams that would make the cut, but here are the ones I'm fairly certain would:

ACC: Clemson, Florida State, Virginia Tech
Big 12: Oklahoma, Texas
Big Ten: Iowa, Michigan, Nebraska, Ohio State, Penn State, Wisconsin
Pac-12: Oregon, Stanford, USC
SEC: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, LSU, Tennessee, Texas A&M
Others: Notre Dame

That puts us at 22, so we need 10 more. Here are some possibles:

ACC: Georgia Tech, Louisville, Miami, North Carolina
Big 12: Kansas State, Oklahoma State, TCU, West Virginia
Big Ten: Illinois, Maryland, Michigan State, Minnesota, Rutgers
Pac-12: Arizona/Arizona State, California, Colorado, UCLA, Utah, Washington
SEC: Auburn, Missouri, Ole Miss
Others: Boise State, BYU

Note: I'd hope programs like Auburn's would make it, since they certainly deserve to in terms of football success. However, it's possible that due to politics, relatively low-population states may get shafted in favor of high-population ones, even if the latter lack a sufficient number of good football programs (e.g., Illinois). Media markets may still come into play, which is why I have weaker programs like those of Rutgers and UMD listed as possibles.

I'll take a stab at a lineup and alignment, along with potential NFL affiliates in parentheses:

Eastern Conference
North: Louisville (CIN), Michigan (DET), Michigan State (NEP), Notre Dame (IND), Ohio State (CLE), Penn State (PHI), Virginia Tech (WAS), West Virginia (PIT)
South: Alabama (NYG), Auburn (NYJ), Clemson (CAR), Florida (JAC), Florida State (TBB), Georgia (ATL), Miami (MIA), Tennessee (TEN)

Western Conference
Central: Arkansas (BUF), Iowa (CHI), LSU (NOS), Missouri (KCC), Nebraska (MIN), Oklahoma (DEN), Oklahoma State (BAL), Wisconsin (GBP)
Pacific: Arizona State (ARI), Oregon (LVR), Stanford (SFO), Texas (DAL), Texas A&M (HOU), UCLA (LAC), USC (LAR), Washington (SEA)

Permanent crossovers: Alabama/LSU, Notre Dame/USC, Oklahoma/Texas

A few affiliations are rather random due to there being not enough nearby teams.

If a breakaway occurs, the schools that the networks are willing to pay for will make the move.


The problem is that BYU, Boise State, Army, Navy and Air Force are valuable than some P5 schools that the Networks are willing to shell money out for them alone. The WCC is weak in basketball which is why rumors about BYU, Gonzaga and Saint Mary's to the MWC which would boast both the MWC and the three WCC members in basketball.
Georgetown, Saint John's and Villanova were in talks with the ACC to join them. The problem with those three are that they need to get more serious on sports and not just basketball. That means they have to have FBS football.

As for the breakaway from the NCAA? It just have to be willing partners of anybody who the P5 wants to go with them. I know that the Big 10 would like to grab all the AAU schools to go with them for all sports which includes McGill and Toronto.
The California schools want all the UC-whatever to go with them including UC-San Diego. MWC would be welcome except for San Jose State. It would be an agreement for MWC to be included that they need to boot San Jose State and add UC-Davis.
Some Big Sky schools and some west coast D2 schools are welcome to join because the PAC 12 do need some of them for the water sports. RMAC might be welcome for a simple reason for sports like Beach Volleyball and LAX. Some of these schools including GNAC do have club hockey which they could earn more money to expand into varsity teams in the future to create a west coast presence fr all schools. It could help both Alaska schools, Colorado college, Denver and Air Force for travel cost for hockey.

As it is, it would be too much burden of costs for this to happen for all the schools. Either if it is just football? It is no guarantee that the NCAA will bot them all out for all sports which would hurt them as well. As it is, the P5 are willing to list which schools could be a P5 type school and not naming the whole conferences as one.
08-27-2017 02:52 AM
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