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OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
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olderduke Offline
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Post: #61
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 06:12 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  Bunch of pansy arsed thin skinned Snowflakes. I lived in Jackson when it was a Dorm and slept well. I attended Madison College and had many classes in Wilson Hall. They are names of buildings. Get over it. Change the name of Washington D.C. and take down the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial and then take down the statue of Jimmy Mad. Remove all references to Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant. Change our history. This country has gone to hell in a hand basket. Get rid of this pathetic thread and let's talk some football. All it will do is cause heartburn and division among everyone on here. A waste of energy. The day they start changing the names of our buildings for political correctness is the day they get the last dime from me.
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08-26-2017 06:18 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #62
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-25-2017 09:50 PM)Madison 91 Forever Wrote:  Well, it's my fault that this is a thread, so I guess I'll make some sort of substantive comment. Look, we can keep it civil, and it does concern our school.

The notion of changing long-named buildings, or demolishing markers, simply because they offend our modern sensibilities, irritates me. The fact of the matter is that with some rare exceptions most historical figures, just like modern day ones, are generally not all good or all bad. There is nuance in the world, and our historical predecessors made choices that we wouldn't necessarily make today. These buildings have had those names for decades. They shouldn't be renamed. For many reasons I detest Woodrow Wilson, but I would also detest the idea of changing the name of Wilson Hall. Why? Because our historical predecessors gave the building that name - that's its name. I'm not triggered, and do not break down in tears, every time I have to pass by the Woodrow Wilson birthplace here in Staunton, nor when I enter Wilson Hall. We should leave the names in place and yet have intelligent discussions about the merits or demerits of these men.

As for the Confederate soldiers being "traitors to the United States," one doesn't have to admire the Confederacy (I don't) to understand that Ashby, Jackson and Maury were military men defending what they understood to be their country from what they believed was a foreign invasion. They weren't saints, but they weren't demons, either.

So there's my two cents. Go Dukes.

I can understand this point of view, but I disagree that we should leave it because it's been that way for years. I think we need better reasons.
08-26-2017 06:43 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #63
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 06:12 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  Bunch of pansy arsed thin skinned Snowflakes. I lived in Jackson when it was a Dorm and slept well. I attended Madison College and had many classes in Wilson Hall. They are names of buildings. Get over it. Change the name of Washington D.C. and take down the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial and then take down the statue of Jimmy Mad. Remove all references to Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant. Change our history. This country has gone to hell in a hand basket. Get rid of this pathetic thread and let's talk some football. All it will do is cause heartburn and division among everyone on here. A waste of energy. The day they start changing the names of our buildings for political correctness is the day they get the last dime from me.

Sounds like they might lose your donations if Alger does what we all think he will do.
08-26-2017 06:45 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #64
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
It does bother me that people out there (& on here) jump to these absurd characterizations of people who think certain historical figures don't deserve recognition anymore.

I've never been "triggered" in my life. I don't need a "safe space". I've never cried because a monument or building name hurts my widdle feelings. But still, I can understand & support renaming certain buildings. It goes against logic & reason to lump me into the "extreme far-left" just because I happen to agree with their ideas from time to time. Oversimplification of my thought-process is insulting & pretending everyone is a caricature when they disagree with you reflects poorly on your own critical thinking skills.
08-26-2017 06:54 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #65
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
To provide some personal counter-balance, I did not agree with chicago's comparison of confederate-named buildings being similar to nazi-named buildings. I think that is too far. I do believe we have to consider people's recognition worthiness as it relates to their time on earth. Nazis were evil scum always from the outside looking in. People like Robert E. Lee really weren't scum in their time, in fact, their opposition admired them. Not discounting slavery & oppression as evil, just that it wasn't understood the way it is now with context.

I really believe that type of context is important & it requires people to stop shouting generic insults to get there.
08-26-2017 07:05 AM
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Smokey 1 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 06:12 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  Bunch of pansy arsed thin skinned Snowflakes. I lived in Jackson when it was a Dorm and slept well. I attended Madison College and had many classes in Wilson Hall. They are names of buildings. Get over it. Change the name of Washington D.C. and take down the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial and then take down the statue of Jimmy Mad. Remove all references to Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant. Change our history. This country has gone to hell in a hand basket. Get rid of this pathetic thread and let's talk some football. All it will do is cause heartburn and division among everyone on here. A waste of energy. The day they start changing the names of our buildings for political correctness is the day they get the last dime from me.

+10
08-26-2017 07:50 AM
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Halz87 Offline
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OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
Being empathetic doesn't make you a "snowflake". It makes you a decent person . And no one has ever accused me of being a pansy. Especially to my face .
08-26-2017 07:54 AM
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Oldduke Offline
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RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
Instead of tearing down or covering up these statues, in the case of Robert E. Lee, why not ADD some of the honorable and noteworthy quotes from the man to the base of the statue(s) to truly educate those too lazy to do the proper research.

Lee, at various times in his life, is quoted as:

"In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil in any country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages."

"We should live, act, and say nothing to the injury of anyone. It is not only best as a matter of principle, but it is the path to peace and honor."

"I have fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the South its dearest rights. But I have never cherished toward them bitter or vindictive feelings, and I have never seen the day when I did not pray for them."

This could go on and on. Literally, historical, credible, actual books are filled with the man's full character and worth. When we sit in judgment of people and a way of life when we are so far removed in time and culture, most are only showing their ignorance. 100 years from now I guarantee you some will be condemning some cause or movement given different context that time ultimately brings.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2017 08:04 AM by Oldduke.)
08-26-2017 08:02 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #69
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
I fully agree as it relates to Lee specifically. I don't share the same feeling toward a Jefferson Davis, for one example.
08-26-2017 08:08 AM
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Longhorn Offline
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Post: #70
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 07:05 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  To provide some personal counter-balance, I did not agree with chicago's comparison of confederate-named buildings being similar to nazi-named buildings. I think that is too far. I do believe we have to consider people's recognition worthiness as it relates to their time on earth. Nazis were evil scum always from the outside looking in. People like Robert E. Lee really weren't scum in their time, in fact, their opposition admired them. Not discounting slavery & oppression as evil, just that it wasn't understood the way it is now with context.

I really believe that type of context is important & it requires people to stop shouting generic insults to get there.

A person who owned slaves in the South circa 1850 was generally regarded as an individual of means and a contributing member of society. That truth, however, doesn't negate the institution of slavery as an immoral and evil practice. It was rather just an accepted cultural norm in certain parts of the country where slavery was "legal"

As for the underlying belief in 1850 that people of African decent were somehow less capable as human beings, well, we still have people with us today that act out on that disgusting belief. The German Nazis also felt they were genetically superior to other certain populations (just as slave owners and those who condoned the practice would argue), so to my mind there is an equivalence to be argued that Nazis and those individuals who fought against the American Union to protect the institution of slavery are indeed one and the same.

The fact Nazis exterminated millions in a shortened time frame, verses inflicting death on those held in involuntary bondage over a 400 year timespan doesn't necessarily lesson the evil practiced by either group for me.

Cultures evolve, and part of that process is establishing accepted norms of civil behavior. Interracial marriage was still a felonious crime in Virginia as late as the 1970s. Integration of our public schools in Virginia was also fought tooth-and-nail well into the 1970s. Gay marriage (despite a Supreme Court ruling allowing it) is still being contested. I think our culture (meaning what we practice and value most as Americans) will survive renaming a couple of buildings or relocating some old statues.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2017 09:31 AM by Longhorn.)
08-26-2017 08:13 AM
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Oldduke Offline
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Post: #71
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 08:08 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I fully agree as it relates to Lee specifically. I don't share the same feeling toward a Jefferson Davis, for one example.

I agree as well. But "Lee" has now become the next unacceptable word to come from people's lips! Unbelievable how a mob mentality can run amok so easily. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have media sensationalizing things and only showing and reporting slanted views.
08-26-2017 08:14 AM
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olddawg Offline
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Post: #72
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
Wonder how Dr Clive Hallman would weigh in on this matter? What a great teacher:
[Image: hallman-clive-bridgewater-655x393.jpg]
08-26-2017 09:18 AM
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Potomac Offline
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OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
I would be very interested to talk to the JMU history department on this topic.
08-26-2017 09:20 AM
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #74
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
Well we kinda just did.
08-26-2017 09:40 AM
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BDKJMU Offline
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Post: #75
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-25-2017 02:45 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  I'll just say this because I'm shocked the distinction has not been emphasized on this thread.
Q: Why don't we take down statues of Jefferson/MLK/Madison for [insert reason here]?
A: BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OVERT AND DELIBERATE TRAITORS TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

This is the least slippery slope imagineable.
Well, all the founding fathers committed treason/were traitors at the time of the Revolution..If the colonies had lost they (some of them anyway) might very well have been executed. History is always written by the winners..
08-26-2017 10:09 AM
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BDKJMU Offline
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Post: #76
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 07:50 AM)Smokey 1 Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 06:12 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  Bunch of pansy arsed thin skinned Snowflakes. I lived in Jackson when it was a Dorm and slept well. I attended Madison College and had many classes in Wilson Hall. They are names of buildings. Get over it. Change the name of Washington D.C. and take down the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial and then take down the statue of Jimmy Mad. Remove all references to Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant. Change our history. This country has gone to hell in a hand basket. Get rid of this pathetic thread and let's talk some football. All it will do is cause heartburn and division among everyone on here. A waste of energy. The day they start changing the names of our buildings for political correctness is the day they get the last dime from me.

+10
+20.

A that's a good add in of Grant. A lot people probably don't know that Grant, the Union Gen in charge of the main Union army, the Army of the Potomac, mid 1864-1865, the general who defeated Lee and later became a POTUS, maybe the most famous Union Gen of the war, was a slave owner, owned them a lot longer than Lee, and didn't free them until 1865.
08-26-2017 10:39 AM
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BDKJMU Offline
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Post: #77
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 08:14 AM)Oldduke Wrote:  
(08-26-2017 08:08 AM)HyperDuke Wrote:  I fully agree as it relates to Lee specifically. I don't share the same feeling toward a Jefferson Davis, for one example.

I agree as well. But "Lee" has now become the next unacceptable word to come from people's lips! Unbelievable how a mob mentality can run amok so easily. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have media sensationalizing things and only showing and reporting slanted views.

Yep. I think there is a lot of ignorance of history in the mob mentality. Lee did own slaves he inherited when his father-in-law died in 1857, which Lee freed in 1862. He was to (to an extent) opposed to slavery (ex letter to his wife in the 1850s called it evil) & opposed to secession. In 1861, as Colonel in the US Army, was offered a major generalship by Lincoln in the Union Army to fight against the South. Only fought for the South because Virginia seceded. Back then ties to state were as strong, if not stronger, than ties to country.
08-26-2017 10:45 AM
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91Alum Offline
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RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
I have a modest proposal:

As we're running about scouring our history for ancient offenses we find too painful to remember, we probably ought to ban the College Democrats from campus while we're at it. Hear me out.

Stonewall Jackson was a Democrat. So were Nathan Bedford Forrest, George Wallace, Bull Connor, Woodrow Wilson (don't forget him), Lester Maddox, and every other piece of slavery-loving segregationist garbage roaming the South in those days. As recently as 2010, the Democrats had a Klansman (Robert Byrd) in the United States Senate. I find it amazing some folks on here didn't know that, by the way.

Not one Democrat in Congress voted in support of the 14th or 15th Amendments to the Constitution, giving freed slaves equal protection under the law and African-American men the right to vote, respectively. Yet we allow this hateful and bigoted political party to have a "chapter" on our campus?

When you look back over the course of its shameful history (and it is in fact shameful), the Democrat Party and their hideous ideology have done more to hold back African-Americans than Stonewall Jackson or Turner Ashby ever could have individually or collectively. And given our new revisionist standards of viewing history, it makes sense that the racist, segregationist, slavery-loving, KKK-supporting legacy of the Democrat Party be erased from campus along with everything and everyone else we find objectionable when viewed through our modern lens. I propose we start with the College Democrats, and then we can decide where to go from there. After all, the mob is never truly appeased.

Editor's note: Before everyone goes off the deep end, I'm obviously saying all of this tongue-in-cheek. But if we start down this slippery slope of whitewashing (pun intended) our history, where and how does it end? And who gets to decide? I take the points of those who disagree as valid (especially the arguments around glorifying traitors), but this is dangerous business.
08-26-2017 11:00 AM
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Longhorn Offline
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Post: #79
RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 11:00 AM)91Alum Wrote:  I have a modest proposal:

As we're running about scouring our history for ancient offenses we find too painful to remember, we probably ought to ban the College Democrats from campus while we're at it. Hear me out.

Stonewall Jackson was a Democrat. So were Nathan Bedford Forrest, George Wallace, Bull Connor, Woodrow Wilson (don't forget him), Lester Maddox, and every other piece of slavery-loving segregationist garbage roaming the South in those days. As recently as 2010, the Democrats had a Klansman (Robert Byrd) in the United States Senate. I find it amazing some folks on here didn't know that, by the way.

Not one Democrat in Congress voted in support of the 14th or 15th Amendments to the Constitution, giving freed slaves equal protection under the law and African-American men the right to vote, respectively. Yet we allow this hateful and bigoted political party to have a "chapter" on our campus?

When you look back over the course of its shameful history (and it is in fact shameful), the Democrat Party and their hideous ideology have done more to hold back African-Americans than Stonewall Jackson or Turner Ashby ever could have individually or collectively. And given our new revisionist standards of viewing history, it makes sense that the racist, segregationist, slavery-loving, KKK-supporting legacy of the Democrat Party be erased from campus along with everything and everyone else we find objectionable when viewed through our modern lens. I propose we start with the College Democrats, and then we can decide where to go from there. After all, the mob is never truly appeased.

Editor's note: Before everyone goes off the deep end, I'm obviously saying all of this tongue-in-cheek. But if we start down this slippery slope of whitewashing (pun intended) our history, where and how does it end? And who gets to decide? I take the points of those who disagree as valid (especially the arguments around glorifying traitors), but this is dangerous business.

That's an easy question. The answer to "who gets to decide?" is
we do, the American people, through our established form of government (which includes the courts). It's messy at times, damn frustrating at others. Yet, it's the best we've got.
08-26-2017 02:26 PM
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chicagoduke Offline
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RE: OT: Goodbye Jackson, Ashby, Maury etc etc etc ...
(08-26-2017 11:00 AM)91Alum Wrote:  I have a modest proposal:

As we're running about scouring our history for ancient offenses we find too painful to remember, we probably ought to ban the College Democrats from campus while we're at it. Hear me out.

Stonewall Jackson was a Democrat. So were Nathan Bedford Forrest, George Wallace, Bull Connor, Woodrow Wilson (don't forget him), Lester Maddox, and every other piece of slavery-loving segregationist garbage roaming the South in those days. As recently as 2010, the Democrats had a Klansman (Robert Byrd) in the United States Senate. I find it amazing some folks on here didn't know that, by the way.

Not one Democrat in Congress voted in support of the 14th or 15th Amendments to the Constitution, giving freed slaves equal protection under the law and African-American men the right to vote, respectively. Yet we allow this hateful and bigoted political party to have a "chapter" on our campus?

When you look back over the course of its shameful history (and it is in fact shameful), the Democrat Party and their hideous ideology have done more to hold back African-Americans than Stonewall Jackson or Turner Ashby ever could have individually or collectively. And given our new revisionist standards of viewing history, it makes sense that the racist, segregationist, slavery-loving, KKK-supporting legacy of the Democrat Party be erased from campus along with everything and everyone else we find objectionable when viewed through our modern lens. I propose we start with the College Democrats, and then we can decide where to go from there. After all, the mob is never truly appeased.

Editor's note: Before everyone goes off the deep end, I'm obviously saying all of this tongue-in-cheek. But if we start down this slippery slope of whitewashing (pun intended) our history, where and how does it end? And who gets to decide? I take the points of those who disagree as valid (especially the arguments around glorifying traitors), but this is dangerous business.

91alum - - I like that you have a firm grasp of history from the 1860s until the 1960s. However, I suggest that you spend some time studying the 1960s and beyond, when the republicans and democratic parties essentially swapped places. The democrats were the party of segregation historically, but after LBJ's actions those parties changed their positions.

The Republicans, who had been the party of Lincoln for a hundred years, pushed a progressive agenda up until the 1950's. After civil rights they took over as the party of the south immediately following. The Democrats, who had long fought to keep racism and white nationalism alive historically took over the role of the progressives from 1970 and onward. It's a tricky and nuanced bit of history, but as a JMU grad, I trust that you'll be able to get it. I'm attaching a link that would be well worth your while to read. It's an interesting and thought provoking article worth the time it takes to read it.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/07/02/when-th...f-lincoln/
08-26-2017 02:57 PM
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