Because the original UNC v. NCAA legal drama did not include a poll, I'm posting one for you guys to vote on.

Carolina is prepared to "exhaust the process". How far it goes is up to the NCAA.

http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598

The fundamental issue in our case is that the NCAA bylaws covers athletics matters, not how academics are managed. We thoroughly addressed academic oversight with our accrediting agency, which is the proper governing body for academic issues. Our reply to each allegation is based on the NCAA’s constitution and member-adopted bylaws. We expect that the Committee on Infractions to consistently apply these bylaws as the case moves forward. We continue to encourage you to read our response thoroughly. It is highly detailed with a lot of information. We also encourage all of you to take a close look at the postings on our Carolina Commitment website for key background and context.”

(08-18-2017 04:16 PM)XLance Wrote:  Carolina is prepared to "exhaust the process". How far it goes is up to the NCAA.

http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598

The fundamental issue in our case is that the NCAA bylaws covers athletics matters, not how academics are managed. We thoroughly addressed academic oversight with our accrediting agency, which is the proper governing body for academic issues. Our reply to each allegation is based on the NCAA’s constitution and member-adopted bylaws. We expect that the Committee on Infractions to consistently apply these bylaws as the case moves forward. We continue to encourage you to read our response thoroughly. It is highly detailed with a lot of information. We also encourage all of you to take a close look at the postings on our Carolina Commitment website for key background and context.”

In fairness, nobody goes into a legal battle saying "well we'll take one good shot at it and if doesn't go out way then oh well."

Please lord let UNC CHeat continue their string of stupidity and file an action in Federal Court to appease their moronic, entitled fans. Then, afterwards, we can explain to them what discovery, subpeona power, and contempt of court are.

The aftermath might kill me. I doubt I have ever laughed that hard.

(08-18-2017 08:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  Please lord let UNC CHeat continue their string of stupidity and file an action in Federal Court to appease their moronic, entitled fans. Then, afterwards, we can explain to them what discovery, subpeona power, and contempt of court are.

The aftermath might kill me. I doubt I have ever laughed that hard.

Both sides have too much invested to accept defeat. The NCAA is more likely to throw in the towel than UNC, however. They did so with Miami, Penn State, USC, etc.

It will be dropped.

The NCAA keeps changing their notice because they are searching for legal grounds their authority can hold. The last thing the NCAA wants is to get into court and have a judgment in favor of UNC that says they lack the authority. That would gut the NCAA of all power over schools.

Morally the NCAA is 100% in the right. But as an association it gets very murky about their ability to legally punish members, especially when it comes to actions not definitively spelled out in their contracts (e.g., ByLaws). Being a monopoly does not help them here. Their powers are limited to what the members contractually agree to. The only thing the courts can rule on is the contract. Who is in compliance and who is not. And whether actions are appropriate and within the terms of the contract or are extra, not defined. Even Chevron deference would not work here because the NCAA is not a government agency (and congress did not explicitly surrender rules writing to them).

If I were a betting man, I'd place money UNC wins anything that gets to court. Were I the NCAA I would place a new person in charge and send them to negotiate a sanction UNC would accept, that is mostly by their own implementation. The biggest thing I would fear is losing all authority over member schools. (I would also start a committee to begin drafting new language for member school contracts that spell out the authority of the NCAA in more detail and get it ratified, including certain aspects of academic enforcement. Then get that approved by the NCAA membership.)

I think UNC needs a nasty penalty, but I think they are very likely to prevail should this get to court.

If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

This isn't mine, I want to make sure I attribute it to Ted Tatos, who has been really thorough in deep dives on the available information. He addressed the NCAA equivalent of Too Big To Fail, Re: UNC. This is a frequently voiced argument.

Ted Tatos Wrote:For those saying "NCAA won't punish UNC because they're too big to touch". Not true. UNC ranks 39th in total D-I revenues over last 3 years. https://t.co/9kocBgnScc

Behind even WVU. Everything about this program's elite status is a myth. "Dean's Myth".

I hope the NCAA wins, the corruption over their is strong.

What will all the white tr@$# in NC do in the winter without Tar Heel basketball?

(08-19-2017 08:57 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I hope the NCAA wins, the corruption over their is strong.

What will all the white tr@$# in NC do in the winter without Tar Heel basketball?

This isn't the forum for G5 envy.

(08-19-2017 11:53 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 08:57 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I hope the NCAA wins, the corruption over their is strong.

What will all the white tr@$# in NC do in the winter without Tar Heel basketball?

This isn't the forum for G5 envy.

First of all no envy. We are in a conference that has many members of former BCS or large school conferences. Just because

Also as long as schools like Boston College, Wake Forest, Duke, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Indiana, Purdue, Northwestern, Washington State, Oregon State, etc are consider above programs like ECU and BYU I will find it a joke. I completely understand how many G5 programs are a joke. No fan bases crappy stadium etc. Yes those are jokes and should be consider less than a P5 program. But a school like ECU has no envy as we have the fan base and atmosphere at our games. We just have to win and keep winning and make NY6 bowls.

(08-20-2017 08:51 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 11:53 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 08:57 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I hope the NCAA wins, the corruption over their is strong.

What will all the white tr@$# in NC do in the winter without Tar Heel basketball?

This isn't the forum for G5 envy.

First of all no envy. We are in a conference that has many members of former BCS or large school conferences. Just because

Also as long as schools like Boston College, Wake Forest, Duke, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Indiana, Purdue, Northwestern, Washington State, Oregon State, etc are consider above programs like ECU and BYU I will find it a joke. I completely understand how many G5 programs are a joke. No fan bases crappy stadium etc. Yes those are jokes and should be consider less than a P5 program. But a school like ECU has no envy as we have the fan base and atmosphere at our games. We just have to win and keep winning and make NY6 bowls.

This thread is about whether North Carolina will finally face justice and have to admit their transgressions, or whether the NCAA loses it's last bit of relevance. It is not about G5 / P5 junk which is a verboden topic on this forum. The leash will be very short for P5/G5 banter.

So stick to your desire for Heel comeuppance, or the NCAA's demise and you'll be fine.

(08-19-2017 08:57 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

(08-20-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

You make many good points if you make several assumptions.

If you assume that UNC's violations are worse than they appear and that UNC is protecting their own culpable actions then I see your points.

But, if you don't then there isn't much to it beyond the NCAA issues.