Should struggling private schools look into this to beef up their brick and mortar and their athletics to keep up with P5's or should they drop to a lower level and be ok with the hand they are dealt?

Like who?

Should actual schools in the country follow the "For-profit Christian Bookstore" model of Grand Canyon Univ?

NO

Harsh

Having athletics works at a for-profit GCU because of GCU's size, but most for-profit schools aren't large enough for their athletic departments to be break even propositions, much less a revenue center.

(08-09-2017 12:23 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Having athletics works at a for-profit GCU because of GCU's size, but most for-profit schools aren't large enough for their athletic departments to be break even propositions, much less a revenue center.

What is with that Hate for the "For Profit" model anyways? They still have to be accredited and if their producing able graduates then why does it matter? Money for education is getting tighter and tighter so I personally think it's a great option for struggling Private schools. If transparency and legitimacy is an issue than set up a second layer of accreditation that "profits" have to meet to ensure they aren't diploma factories. States are going broke and any new model that can help schools stay solvent is a good thing. I find it hilarious that Arizona State has a problem with GCU when they have become the online degree queens.

(08-09-2017 11:55 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  Should struggling private schools look into this to beef up their brick and mortar and their athletics to keep up with P5's or should they drop to a lower level and be ok with the hand they are dealt?

It's not clear to me how this would help.

(08-09-2017 12:52 PM)Shox Wrote:  Money for education is getting tighter and tighter so I personally think it's a great option for struggling Private schools.

Good point -- we all should just accept that "money for education is getting tighter", and not question why that has to be the case, at all.

I think the way GCU has done it should be at least looked at for private schools currently or down the road that fall on hard times and might not be able to last w/o it. Public/state schools tuition keeps rising to crazy heights and should be kept in check just as much as some want for profit schools checked for transparency. It was just an idea and could help out poor small private schools. I don't have any off the time of my head but it was just a thought.

MplsBison Wrote:Should actual schools in the country follow the "For-profit Christian Bookstore" model of Grand Canyon Univ?

NO

(08-09-2017 01:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Good point -- we all should just accept that "money for education is getting tighter", and not question why that has to be the case, at all.

Both of your comments shoot down the idea of for-profit universities which is fine. You seem to strongly dislike this approach for schools so I have to ask what would your solution be for private schools? Why should it matter to anyone?

Solution to what problem? You charge the tuition (and fees) that you need in order to bring in revenue to pay for the operations of the school, and nothing more.

small private religious schools in naia use it. give kids partial rides and keep their total student numbers up


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(08-09-2017 12:52 PM)Shox Wrote:  What is with that Hate for the "For Profit" model anyways? They still have to be accredited and if their producing able graduates then why does it matter? Money for education is getting tighter and tighter so I personally think it's a great option for struggling Private schools. If transparency and legitimacy is an issue than set up a second layer of accreditation that "profits" have to meet to ensure they aren't diploma factories. States are going broke and any new model that can help schools stay solvent is a good thing. I find it hilarious that Arizona State has a problem with GCU when they have become the online degree queens.

I'm sure Arizona State would like as little competition as possible for their online degree programs, but I wonder if part of many people's problem with GCU is that it is Evangelical.

One thousand miles away here in Kentucky, I probably hear 3-4 ads per week for Arizona State.

(08-09-2017 07:32 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(08-09-2017 12:52 PM)Shox Wrote:  What is with that Hate for the "For Profit" model anyways? They still have to be accredited and if their producing able graduates then why does it matter? Money for education is getting tighter and tighter so I personally think it's a great option for struggling Private schools. If transparency and legitimacy is an issue than set up a second layer of accreditation that "profits" have to meet to ensure they aren't diploma factories. States are going broke and any new model that can help schools stay solvent is a good thing. I find it hilarious that Arizona State has a problem with GCU when they have become the online degree queens.

I'm sure Arizona State would like as little competition as possible for their online degree programs, but I wonder if part of many people's problem with GCU is that it is Evangelical.

One thousand miles away here in Kentucky, I probably hear 3-4 ads per week for Arizona State.

I've been hearing those Arizona St on line program ads for years traveling around in my truck from California to Texas. I find it embarrassing for them. They are already a commuter school and now they are doing this. 2 Aunts in Phoenix, one has a degree from u of Phoenix, one has a degree from Grand Canyon....I just find it embarrassing. They paid so much more than anyone would guess for those worthless degrees. One is a single mother unemployed on welfare. The other got a job in sales: At the University of Phoenix. I wish they'd outlaw those bogus schools. I've seen way too many of my Army Veteran buddies get those degrees and then find out they couldn't get the college degree required jobs they were promised they would get. It's very sad how they prey on soldiers for their Montgomery GI Bill money. Tragic.

(08-09-2017 11:55 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  Should struggling private schools look into this to beef up their brick and mortar and their athletics to keep up with P5's or should they drop to a lower level and be ok with the hand they are dealt?

Only last year did GCU stop trying to be converted to not for profit status as its regional accreditor, the Higher Learning Commission kept rejecting their application. So don't act like they've always wanted to be what they are.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016...-nonprofit

Other private schools turning for profit would immediately have income tax issues (federally and state) and likely property tax issues as losing tax exempt status will cause problems for their land value bro.

GCU has only officially tried once to switch back to being a non profit. As an alum of GCU it doesnt bother me either way what their tax status is.

(08-09-2017 08:29 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(08-09-2017 07:32 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(08-09-2017 12:52 PM)Shox Wrote:  What is with that Hate for the "For Profit" model anyways? They still have to be accredited and if their producing able graduates then why does it matter? Money for education is getting tighter and tighter so I personally think it's a great option for struggling Private schools. If transparency and legitimacy is an issue than set up a second layer of accreditation that "profits" have to meet to ensure they aren't diploma factories. States are going broke and any new model that can help schools stay solvent is a good thing. I find it hilarious that Arizona State has a problem with GCU when they have become the online degree queens.

I'm sure Arizona State would like as little competition as possible for their online degree programs, but I wonder if part of many people's problem with GCU is that it is Evangelical.

One thousand miles away here in Kentucky, I probably hear 3-4 ads per week for Arizona State.

I've been hearing those Arizona St on line program ads for years traveling around in my truck from California to Texas. I find it embarrassing for them. They are already a commuter school and now they are doing this. 2 Aunts in Phoenix, one has a degree from u of Phoenix, one has a degree from Grand Canyon....I just find it embarrassing. They paid so much more than anyone would guess for those worthless degrees. One is a single mother unemployed on welfare. The other got a job in sales: At the University of Phoenix. I wish they'd outlaw those bogus schools. I've seen way too many of my Army Veteran buddies get those degrees and then find out they couldn't get the college degree required jobs they were promised they would get. It's very sad how they prey on soldiers for their Montgomery GI Bill money. Tragic.

It seems like you are lumping online degree's together with schools who don't have a regional accreditation.

I have an MS from an online school and I'm making six figures....

(08-09-2017 07:32 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(08-09-2017 12:52 PM)Shox Wrote:  What is with that Hate for the "For Profit" model anyways? They still have to be accredited and if their producing able graduates then why does it matter? Money for education is getting tighter and tighter so I personally think it's a great option for struggling Private schools. If transparency and legitimacy is an issue than set up a second layer of accreditation that "profits" have to meet to ensure they aren't diploma factories. States are going broke and any new model that can help schools stay solvent is a good thing. I find it hilarious that Arizona State has a problem with GCU when they have become the online degree queens.

I'm sure Arizona State would like as little competition as possible for their online degree programs, but I wonder if part of many people's problem with GCU is that it is Evangelical.

One thousand miles away here in Kentucky, I probably hear 3-4 ads per week for Arizona State.

That is a factor but it's for the most part the online factor. Online programs are a very good thing. Guess what a day is like for many students?

1. Get out of bed.
2. Walk to cafeteria.
3. Walk to class.
4. Sit in stadium style seat.
5. Watch some guy read a PowerPoint presentation.
6. Get your assignment.

I did my MS-CS online and I'm glad I did. Why in the world do I need to go to a class to practice Java? Send me the lecture, PowerPoint, and just be available during office hours if I have a question.

I'm getting my MBA online at Penn State. A lot schools offer degrees online these days. I got MBA ads from Rutgers, Syracuse, North Carolina, Miami, Villanova, Oregon State, Temple, UAB, Boston University, Northeastern, Washington State, etc.

Online degrees work for those people who are going back to school to finish their undergrad degree, have families, a disability, are often deployed in the military or just want to get a masters degree to further their career. I personally could've gone to SMU Cox or even the Texas MBA program that's offered here in Dallas but my full time job plus other activities keep me from attending classes in person. I don't have to worry about putting off vacations, running late, being stuck in traffic, running to class and deal with bad weather on the way in and out. Penn State offered a lower tuition and it's an MBA from a very prestigious academic school. No, I won't become a Big Ten apologist, that title belongs to Frank and MplsBison. J/k

One thing I always tell people who might be interested in getting their undergrad online is to make sure they're getting the best deal for their degree. A bachelor's degree from Oregon State or Colorado State goes a long way compared from one from Walden or Strayer. It is also way cheaper and you won't be stuck with a lot of debt from a worthless degree. Also, if you're fresh out of high school, online degrees are not for you, unless you have a disability or are active duty in the military. There's nothing like experiencing college life in your younger years and most of the time you develop relationships and networks that last a lifetime. I also noticed that most people who look down on online programs do so because Phoenix was the pioneer so it has that stigma attached.

As for Grand Canyon, I didn't know they were evangelical. I just thought they were just like Phoenix. I learned something new tonight.

I fundamentally don't understand why being public would lead to better financing. No we'll run organization on the planet, for profit or nonprofit, is going to invest in a program/department less than the point at which the efficacy of returns diminish to zero. Returns are a product of improvements in student life/name recognition (which would justify higher tuition, more applicants, happier/more generous alumni donw the road, etc.) and actual cash (tickets, merchandise, concessions, media payouts, conference affiliation, etc.). I don't see a for profit school having an advantage in any of those areas. Are local fans more likely to attend a basketball game at a for profit school than a not-for-profit school? I doubt it. If anything, I think nonprofits have the advantage.

Second, access to capital could impact funding because less money will be invested in a program/department if money is expensive and all other factors remain constant. However, it's not clear to me why for profit schools would have an advantage here. If you make a couple assumptions (frictionless bankruptcy and no taxes), capital structure does not impact the cost of capital (see MM Capital Structure Irrelevancy Theory). Those assumptions are obviously not realistic, but I don't think that they hurt my argument. Increased leverage does increase the likelihood of bankruptcy, which does have a cost. But that cost of offset by the debt's tax shield. It's also probably more than offset by the fact that one structure (for profit) has to pay taxes, whereas the other only has to pay PILOT payments (which are generally cheaper). Additionally, large gifts to nonprofits are tax advantaged (and probably still an easier selling point, tax liability aside) and nonprofits probably have lower operating costs due to not having to overcome an academic stigma.

Yes, equity markets probably reduce liquidity premiums for organizations that have to raise cash fast because they provide access to another pool of money, but how often do most schools need a huge (compared to the size of the US financial markets) amount of cash overnight?

W/ the above in mind, I don't get the question.