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Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
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Almadenmike Offline
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Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
Forbes' list of "America's Top Colleges" is out. Rice is #22.

Here's the Top 30, with 5 most generous and 5 least generous noted:

Rank - Name - Cost/Avg. Financial Aid (Aid% of Cost)
#1 Harvard University $64,400/$46,508 (72.2%)
#2 Stanford University $64,477/$43,118 (66.9%)
#3 Yale University $66,445/$45,806 (68.9%)
#4 Princeton University $61,160/$41,764 (68.3%)
#5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology $63,250/$39,339 (62.2%)
#6 California Institute of Technology $63,471/$37,777 (59.5%)
#7 University of Pennsylvania $66,800/$40,276 (60.3%)
#8 Duke University $66,739/$42,704 (64.0%)
#9 Brown University - $65,380/$39,737 (60.8%)
#10 Pomona College - $64,870/$44,209 (68.2%)
#11 Claremont McKenna College - $66,325/$34,321 (51.7%)
#12 Dartmouth College - $67,044/$43,785 (65.3%)
#13 Williams College - $66,240/$42,474 (64.1%)
#14 Columbia University - $69,084/$48,926 (70.8%)
#15 Cornell University - $65,494/$34,941 (53.3%)
#16 University of Chicago - $70,100/$34,465 (49.2%)
#17 Amherst College - $66,572/$47,145 (70.8%)
#18 Harvey Mudd College - $69,355/$32,098 (46.3%)
#19 Swarthmore College - $64,363/$40,870 (63.5%)
#20 United States Naval Academy - $0
#21 Georgetown University - $66,971/$37,791 (56.4%)
#22 Rice University - $58,253/$33,854 (58.1%)
#23 Bowdoin College - $63,440/$38,494 (60.7%)
#24 United States Military Academy - $0
#25 Haverford College - $66,648/$43,170 (64.8%)
#26 University of Notre Dame - $64,775/$35,739 (55.2%)
#27 Vanderbilt University - $63,532/$39,383 (62.0%)
#28 Northwestern University - $68,060/$34,882 (51.3%)
#29 University of California, Berkeley - $59,963/$18,018 (30.0%)
#30 Johns Hopkins University - $65,496/$35,195 (53.7%)
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2017 02:46 PM by Almadenmike.)
08-04-2017 01:41 PM
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HawaiiOwl Offline
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RE: Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
(08-04-2017 01:41 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  Forbes' list of "America's Top Colleges" is out. Rice is #22.

Here's the Top 30:

Rank - Name - Cost/Avg. Financial Aid
#1 Harvard University $64,400/$46,508
#2 Stanford University $64,477/$43,118
#3 Yale University $66,445/$45,806
#4 Princeton University $61,160/$41,764
#5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology $63,250/$39,339
#6 California Institute of Technology $63,471/$37,777
#7 University of Pennsylvania $66,800/$40,276
#8 Duke University $66,739/$42,704
#9 Brown University - $65,380/$39,737
#10 Pomona College - $64,870/$44,209
#11 Claremont McKenna College - $66,325/$34,321
#12 Dartmouth College - $67,044/$43,785
#13 Williams College - $66,240/$42,474
#14 Columbia University - $69,084/$48,926
#15 Cornell University - $65,494/$34,941
#16 University of Chicago - $70,100/$34,465
#17 Amherst College - $66,572/$47,145
#18 Harvey Mudd College - $69,355/$32,098
#19 Swarthmore College - $64,363/$40,870
#20 United States Naval Academy - $0
#21 Georgetown University - $66,971/$37,791
#22 Rice University - $58,253/$33,854
#23 Bowdoin College - $63,440/$38,494
#24 United States Military Academy - $0
#25 Haverford College - $66,648/$43,170
#26 University of Notre Dame - $64,775/$35,739
#27 Vanderbilt University - $63,532/$39,383
#28 Northwestern University - $68,060/$34,882
#29 University of California, Berkeley - $59,963/$18,018
#30 Johns Hopkins University - $65,496/$35,195

the thing that strikes me is the diff between cost and avg financial aid ( for Rice ~ 24,500) is pretty par for our competition, meaning we seem to have lost the edge re "best for the $$" actually spent
08-04-2017 02:21 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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RE: Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
(08-04-2017 02:21 PM)HawaiiOwl Wrote:  the thing that strikes me is the diff between cost and avg financial aid ( for Rice ~ 24,500) is pretty par for our competition, meaning we seem to have lost the edge re "best for the $$" actually spent

Yep. I've added the % aid, and Rice's is 10th lowest (not counting the academies). Rice's average after-aid cost -- $24,399 -- is pretty comparable to the most of that list. I'll have to add that, too.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2017 02:58 PM by Almadenmike.)
08-04-2017 02:57 PM
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owl40 Offline
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RE: Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
Wonder what their methodology is to weight small, liberal arts, private schools in the NE and California so high (that all play D3 or no athletics).

> Half of the top 50 fall in this category but only one of top 37 schools not a military academy is public (UC Berk). Hard to see Michigan, UVA, UCLA, etc. not in the top 35.
08-04-2017 04:44 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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RE: Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
(08-04-2017 04:44 PM)owl40 Wrote:  Wonder what their methodology is to weight small, liberal arts, private schools in the NE and California so high (that all play D3 or no athletics).

> Half of the top 50 fall in this category but only one of top 37 schools not a military academy is public (UC Berk). Hard to see Michigan, UVA, UCLA, etc. not in the top 35.

Here's their methodology article (condensed somewhat; bold and underlines added by me):

Quote:Now in its 10th year, the FORBES Top Colleges ranking has always placed its focus solely on the direct benefits a college or university provides its students. Favoring output over input, we eschew common metrics like acceptance rate, endowment and freshmen SAT scores – numbers that say far more about a school’s “prestige” than its actual effectiveness – and instead favor variables like alumni salary, graduation rate and student satisfaction.

The ROI-centric logic behind this year’s ranking is no different, but part of the methodology and some of the data sources have been reexamined and revamped to better align this list with what FORBES values most: entrepreneurship, success and the consumer experience.

To calculate this year’s list, we used the following metrics:

Post-Graduate Success (35%)

The most direct return of investment a student can earn from a college education is post-graduate success. A high-paying or high-impact career largely justifies four years of academic work and tuition bills, so we continue to make this sector our highest priority.

Running with the themes of “high-paying” and “high-impact,” we split over a one-third chunk of this category between salary scores and our American Leaders List.

Twenty percent of this year’s ranking is dedicated to salary, pulling data from PayScale and the Department of Education. We combine the two data sets to highlight the strengths and compensate for the weakness of both PayScale (the largest online compensation database but all salaries are self-reported) and DOE (based on federal income taxes but only includes students who had federal loans).

...our proprietary American Leaders List (15% of the overall ranking this year) comprises the names of the nation’s richest, most influential and most talented and awarded people, pulling from Forbes’ lists such as the Forbes 400, 30 Under 30 and Richest Self-Made Women. It also considers leaders across other fields, such as federal officials, MacArthur Fellows and Pulitzer Prize winners.

Debt (20%)

... a fifth of our rankings is dedicated to how effectively students at each school avoid – or pay back – student loan debt. Using data from the Department of Education, we dedicated half of our student debt score to average debt load per student, which was calculated using the percentage of students who take out federal loans and the average federal loan debt amount per borrower. The remaining debt score went to student loan default rates, rewarding schools for having students that pay some degree of their student loans back within two to three years.

Student Experience (20%)

To reward schools that create worthwhile experiences for students as well as graduates, we dedicated a fifth of our score to the student experience. Most this score (15%) went to freshman-to-sophomore retention rate, as recorded by the Department of Education. The thinking here is simple: if life at a school is good, students will stay.

... the remaining ... Five percent was evenly divided between Niche’s “2017 Colleges with the Best Professors,” and “2017 Colleges with the Best Student Life.” Niche’s data sources include a survey administered to roughly 93,000 current students and recent alumni reviewing over 1,300 colleges.

Graduation Rate (12.5%)

More than in past years, we are valuing the graduation rate of each school; however, what we are valuing has changed. This year 7.5% of a school’s score is dedicated to its four-year graduation rate; the vast majority of programs nationwide are meant to be completed in four years, and we awarded schools for moving their students to commencement in a timely manner.

However, there are schools like Northeastern University that emphasize programs such as co-ops and internships that extend beyond eight semesters, as well as many bachelor’s-to-master’s degrees. For the first time, we are awarding a small percentage (2.5%) to a school’s six-year graduation rate, since a college experience is still valuable if completed a little later than expected. The remaining 2.5% for this category was awarded to the adjusted graduation rate for Pell grant recipients; schools that enable economically disadvantaged students to graduate at a high rate show a commendable commitment to their students.

Academic Success (12.5%)

Salary is an excellent indicator of post-graduate success. However, for liberal arts fields that are not necessarily as high-paying or for STEM fields that require years of post-graduate education, success does not necessarily mean high pay earlier on. Instead, success can be measured by pursuing further education or by being nationally recognized for academic accomplishments.

As such, the remaining 12.5% of a school’s score is awarded based on academic success. Half of that (6.25%) is granted based on the percentage of a school’s student body that goes on to obtain doctorate degrees (using data from the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation’s Survey of Earned Doctorates), and the other half goes to schools whose students have won a diverse array of prestigious academic awards, including the Fulbright and Goldwater Scholar awards.
08-04-2017 06:53 PM
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owl95 Offline
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RE: Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
(08-04-2017 06:53 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(08-04-2017 04:44 PM)owl40 Wrote:  Wonder what their methodology is to weight small, liberal arts, private schools in the NE and California so high (that all play D3 or no athletics).

> Half of the top 50 fall in this category but only one of top 37 schools not a military academy is public (UC Berk). Hard to see Michigan, UVA, UCLA, etc. not in the top 35.

Here's their methodology article (condensed somewhat; bold and underlines added by me):

Quote:Now in its 10th year, the FORBES Top Colleges ranking has always placed its focus solely on the direct benefits a college or university provides its students. Favoring output over input, we eschew common metrics like acceptance rate, endowment and freshmen SAT scores – numbers that say far more about a school’s “prestige” than its actual effectiveness – and instead favor variables like alumni salary, graduation rate and student satisfaction.

The ROI-centric logic behind this year’s ranking is no different, but part of the methodology and some of the data sources have been reexamined and revamped to better align this list with what FORBES values most: entrepreneurship, success and the consumer experience.

To calculate this year’s list, we used the following metrics:

Post-Graduate Success (35%)

The most direct return of investment a student can earn from a college education is post-graduate success. A high-paying or high-impact career largely justifies four years of academic work and tuition bills, so we continue to make this sector our highest priority.

Running with the themes of “high-paying” and “high-impact,” we split over a one-third chunk of this category between salary scores and our American Leaders List.

Twenty percent of this year’s ranking is dedicated to salary, pulling data from PayScale and the Department of Education. We combine the two data sets to highlight the strengths and compensate for the weakness of both PayScale (the largest online compensation database but all salaries are self-reported) and DOE (based on federal income taxes but only includes students who had federal loans).

...our proprietary American Leaders List (15% of the overall ranking this year) comprises the names of the nation’s richest, most influential and most talented and awarded people, pulling from Forbes’ lists such as the Forbes 400, 30 Under 30 and Richest Self-Made Women. It also considers leaders across other fields, such as federal officials, MacArthur Fellows and Pulitzer Prize winners.

Debt (20%)

... a fifth of our rankings is dedicated to how effectively students at each school avoid – or pay back – student loan debt. Using data from the Department of Education, we dedicated half of our student debt score to average debt load per student, which was calculated using the percentage of students who take out federal loans and the average federal loan debt amount per borrower. The remaining debt score went to student loan default rates, rewarding schools for having students that pay some degree of their student loans back within two to three years.

Student Experience (20%)

To reward schools that create worthwhile experiences for students as well as graduates, we dedicated a fifth of our score to the student experience. Most this score (15%) went to freshman-to-sophomore retention rate, as recorded by the Department of Education. The thinking here is simple: if life at a school is good, students will stay.

... the remaining ... Five percent was evenly divided between Niche’s “2017 Colleges with the Best Professors,” and “2017 Colleges with the Best Student Life.” Niche’s data sources include a survey administered to roughly 93,000 current students and recent alumni reviewing over 1,300 colleges.

Graduation Rate (12.5%)

More than in past years, we are valuing the graduation rate of each school; however, what we are valuing has changed. This year 7.5% of a school’s score is dedicated to its four-year graduation rate; the vast majority of programs nationwide are meant to be completed in four years, and we awarded schools for moving their students to commencement in a timely manner.

However, there are schools like Northeastern University that emphasize programs such as co-ops and internships that extend beyond eight semesters, as well as many bachelor’s-to-master’s degrees. For the first time, we are awarding a small percentage (2.5%) to a school’s six-year graduation rate, since a college experience is still valuable if completed a little later than expected. The remaining 2.5% for this category was awarded to the adjusted graduation rate for Pell grant recipients; schools that enable economically disadvantaged students to graduate at a high rate show a commendable commitment to their students.

Academic Success (12.5%)

Salary is an excellent indicator of post-graduate success. However, for liberal arts fields that are not necessarily as high-paying or for STEM fields that require years of post-graduate education, success does not necessarily mean high pay earlier on. Instead, success can be measured by pursuing further education or by being nationally recognized for academic accomplishments.

As such, the remaining 12.5% of a school’s score is awarded based on academic success. Half of that (6.25%) is granted based on the percentage of a school’s student body that goes on to obtain doctorate degrees (using data from the Department of Education and the National Science Foundation’s Survey of Earned Doctorates), and the other half goes to schools whose students have won a diverse array of prestigious academic awards, including the Fulbright and Goldwater Scholar awards.


Those metrics are sensible but how the heck do we lose that hard to schools like Pomona and Claremont Mckenna??? Many of my alumni peers are working their way into middle-senior management at Fortune 500 companies. You're telling me Pomona had better outcomes than the average Rice graduate 10-20 years out? Hard to believe.
(This post was last modified: 08-05-2017 02:30 AM by owl95.)
08-05-2017 02:29 AM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Forbes Top Colleges: Rice is #22.
(08-05-2017 02:29 AM)owl95 Wrote:  Those metrics are sensible but how the heck do we lose that hard to schools like Pomona and Claremont Mckenna??? Many of my alumni peers are working their way into middle-senior management at Fortune 500 companies. You're telling me Pomona had better outcomes than the average Rice graduate 10-20 years out? Hard to believe.

The answer I believe lies in a bigger picture relative valuation between "Research Universities" (among which Rice is rated 15th here) and "Liberal Arts Universities" (among which Pomona and Claremont pop out as #1 and #2).

The other five in the Liberal Arts category ahead of Rice are:
3. Williams
4. Amherst
5. Harvey Mudd
6. Swarthmore
7. Navy

More specifically, but without seeing the numbers, we probably lose some points on our 4-year graduation rate (though they did this year give a partial credit to the 6-year graduation rate metric). When I was in school we had a lot of folks taking ~5 years to complete undergraduate requirements.

If true, then from an ROI standpoint you'd want to look at overall out-of-pocket cost to graduate (not just the four-year projections) and giving weight to 4-year graduation rates seems like a fair way to account for that.
08-05-2017 10:01 AM
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