Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Another baseball de-commitment
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
tanqtonic Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,253
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 52
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #31
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-03-2017 11:13 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.

The issue is one of the definition of a contract -- it has to be bilateral. I don't have any first hand insight, but do you think that OG would agree to that setup? I would suspect that there are a number of people (at least on this board) that probably doubt whether OG would actually agree to this setup.

Do you think that OG would cede that control to the AD in that manner? If so, why doesnt he ostensibly agree to a 'head coach in waiting' set up?

The fact that the situation is where it is, kind of seems to imply to me that the parties arent really interested in a halfsy type arrangement. The inactivity (and some comments) seem to imply (to me at least) that both sides are in a 'take it or leave it' stance. And the clock *is* ticking....

We don't know that he hasn't. I think it just as likely that the AD hasn't.

I don't see how it's meaningfully different than what he's had before... we're merely giving him a built-in 3 year 'post-coaching' gig which of course he can decline later if he doesn't want to do it... which makes it similar to what would happen if we fired him with 3 years remaining on his contract... in exchange for the security and recruiting stability of a 5 yr rolling contract... not saying we'd ever do that (fire him)... but that eliminates (or at least quantifies) the risk to the University to 3 years of getting SOME value from him (i.e. perhaps we're paying him 650k to do a job that is only worth 250k, but still... it's worth SOMETHING) and it allows OG the respect to remain and then retire on his terms.

The risk is for the HC in waiting, but there's really not a lot of risk there as he has a high profile position with a top baseball school and is learning from one of the best in history... and would likely still be pursued by other universities... but we'd have HIM under a 3yr or so contract as well so while certainly the top dogs could take him, we wouldn't likely lose him to Sam or DBU.

The only thing we do know for sure is the inexorable progression of the clock tick tocking down on this.

I am sure the AD realizes the status quo is a very bad state.

It might be that OG realizes that. If he doesnt, that is an inexcusable victim of pride. If he does, that is not a great testament to his drive to keep Rice top notch.

If OG thinks he can run the Rice program in the manner that it was run and with comparable results to the 2000 - 2010 time frame, that is his opinion.

The last two issues about this team show that that is not the case.

In the perfect world, OG would say "Been a great run, lets make sure my successes are a foundation for the future" and the AD would say "Awesome, how can we honor your service?"

Instead Rice has a 80 some odd year old coach that seems determined to keep his fingers in it until they are pried away. From an outside optics standpoint, this path that is being taken by both sides is a friggin recipe for disaster. I think the loss of the assistants and the de-commits are the canary in the coal mine at this point.

And granted, from an outside optics point of view if the AD simply unilaterally 'retires' Graham, that is as bad as Graham's insistence at maintaining his iron grip on the program as it heads to the looming 20 car pileup that is less than a year away.
08-03-2017 12:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl1998 Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 267
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 4
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #32
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-03-2017 12:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-03-2017 11:13 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.

The issue is one of the definition of a contract -- it has to be bilateral. I don't have any first hand insight, but do you think that OG would agree to that setup? I would suspect that there are a number of people (at least on this board) that probably doubt whether OG would actually agree to this setup.

Do you think that OG would cede that control to the AD in that manner? If so, why doesnt he ostensibly agree to a 'head coach in waiting' set up?

The fact that the situation is where it is, kind of seems to imply to me that the parties arent really interested in a halfsy type arrangement. The inactivity (and some comments) seem to imply (to me at least) that both sides are in a 'take it or leave it' stance. And the clock *is* ticking....

We don't know that he hasn't. I think it just as likely that the AD hasn't.

I don't see how it's meaningfully different than what he's had before... we're merely giving him a built-in 3 year 'post-coaching' gig which of course he can decline later if he doesn't want to do it... which makes it similar to what would happen if we fired him with 3 years remaining on his contract... in exchange for the security and recruiting stability of a 5 yr rolling contract... not saying we'd ever do that (fire him)... but that eliminates (or at least quantifies) the risk to the University to 3 years of getting SOME value from him (i.e. perhaps we're paying him 650k to do a job that is only worth 250k, but still... it's worth SOMETHING) and it allows OG the respect to remain and then retire on his terms.

The risk is for the HC in waiting, but there's really not a lot of risk there as he has a high profile position with a top baseball school and is learning from one of the best in history... and would likely still be pursued by other universities... but we'd have HIM under a 3yr or so contract as well so while certainly the top dogs could take him, we wouldn't likely lose him to Sam or DBU.

The only thing we do know for sure is the inexorable progression of the clock tick tocking down on this.

I am sure the AD realizes the status quo is a very bad state.

It might be that OG realizes that. If he doesnt, that is an inexcusable victim of pride. If he does, that is not a great testament to his drive to keep Rice top notch.

If OG thinks he can run the Rice program in the manner that it was run and with comparable results to the 2000 - 2010 time frame, that is his opinion.

The last two issues about this team show that that is not the case.

In the perfect world, OG would say "Been a great run, lets make sure my successes are a foundation for the future" and the AD would say "Awesome, how can we honor your service?"

Instead Rice has a 80 some odd year old coach that seems determined to keep his fingers in it until they are pried away. From an outside optics standpoint, this path that is being taken by both sides is a friggin recipe for disaster. I think the loss of the assistants and the de-commits are the canary in the coal mine at this point.

And granted, from an outside optics point of view if the AD simply unilaterally 'retires' Graham, that is as bad as Graham's insistence at maintaining his iron grip on the program as it heads to the looming 20 car pileup that is less than a year away.

Yeah this situation is getting worse by the day. JK needs to step up and make the tough decision. Instability is the easiest recruiting tool for other schools. Currently, we're making it easy for everyone else.
08-03-2017 12:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 28,946
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 568
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #33
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
I just feel like there is a whole lot of angst caused by speculation about things which we cannot possibly know....

Among them, whom we might get to replace him should it be that OG is ready to retire and the AD is trying to replace him, but can't find qualified candidates within our financial limits and asking him to stay on/commit to something beyond what he's comfortable doing. Pure speculation.... but CERTAINLY as valid as the speculation that the man who turned down numerous better opportunities suddenly is putting his ego ahead of his legacy.

As I've pointed out, an HC some on here are probably high on (including me) with 5 years HC experience who has never progressed beyond a regional recently signed for over $1mm per.
08-03-2017 01:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
cr11owl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,456
Joined: Feb 2009
Reputation: 22
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #34
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-03-2017 01:16 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I just feel like there is a whole lot of angst caused by speculation about things which we cannot possibly know....

Among them, whom we might get to replace him should it be that OG is ready to retire and the AD is trying to replace him, but can't find qualified candidates within our financial limits and asking him to stay on/commit to something beyond what he's comfortable doing. Pure speculation.... but CERTAINLY as valid as the speculation that the man who turned down numerous better opportunities suddenly is putting his ego ahead of his legacy.

As I've pointed out, an HC some on here are probably high on (including me) with 5 years HC experience who has never progressed beyond a regional recently signed for over $1mm per.

Anyone know what Wayne's contract currently is? I'd guess we arent as financially restricted in baseball as you're making it out to be. Also, he's publically stated he wants to keep coaching. It's not speculation...

When was he offered these better opportunities? With the new facilities he played a huge part in building how many programs were "better" in the last 2 decades. $ has only really hit college baseball in the last few years and I highly doubt anyone was offering Wayne in that time period.
08-03-2017 01:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 28,946
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 568
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #35
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
This is the sort of stuff I'm talking about

(08-03-2017 01:31 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  Anyone know what Wayne's contract currently is? I'd guess we arent as financially restricted in baseball as you're making it out to be.
and I'd guess that you're wrong... having been around here a long time and though not recently, 'in the know' for a good portion of it... (for some of it, even more in the know than you can imagine). I think Wayne's contract is in the 500-750k range.

I'll admit I'm speculating.... but in ANY scenario and under ANY conditions, there are large schools who can and will and always HAVE paid more than we would for coaches. Welcome to Rice. To speculate that we suddenly would outbid them is completely without historical precedence and contrary to decades of actions.

Quote:Also, he's publically stated he wants to keep coaching. It's not speculation...

That's pretty obviously not the angst driving speculation I was referring to.

The speculation that has gone along with at least THAT portion is that somehow his ego now keeps him from doing what is best for his legacy. That's PURE speculation and once again, without precedence.

Quote:When was he offered these better opportunities? With the new facilities he played a huge part in building how many programs were "better" in the last 2 decades. $ has only really hit college baseball in the last few years and I highly doubt anyone was offering Wayne in that time period.

Other people have great facilities as well... and he's been offered opportunities pretty much since we hired him. CERTAINLY after 2003... and contrary to your statement, it's been longer than you think that the money has come to Baseball. I suppose we can debate the definition of 'few years' or 'money', but as I stated, when we hired Wayne for around 75k, UT was poaching a 3 time NC coach for about 175k. That same coaches last contract was for over $1mm/yr.... and Wayne's was about half that for similar results (Wayne's arguably better). That coaches unproven replacement costs over $1mm/yr. The margin between 'what we pay' and 'what others pay' has widened measurably. Not as much as in football, but IMO, THAT, more than anything else has lead to the relative 'decline' in Rice baseball (though it is still far and away our best program)
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2017 03:12 PM by Hambone10.)
08-03-2017 03:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
waltgreenberg Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 22,650
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 130
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Chicago

The Parliament Awards
Post: #36
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-03-2017 12:31 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-03-2017 11:13 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.

The issue is one of the definition of a contract -- it has to be bilateral. I don't have any first hand insight, but do you think that OG would agree to that setup? I would suspect that there are a number of people (at least on this board) that probably doubt whether OG would actually agree to this setup.

Do you think that OG would cede that control to the AD in that manner? If so, why doesnt he ostensibly agree to a 'head coach in waiting' set up?

The fact that the situation is where it is, kind of seems to imply to me that the parties arent really interested in a halfsy type arrangement. The inactivity (and some comments) seem to imply (to me at least) that both sides are in a 'take it or leave it' stance. And the clock *is* ticking....

We don't know that he hasn't. I think it just as likely that the AD hasn't.

I don't see how it's meaningfully different than what he's had before... we're merely giving him a built-in 3 year 'post-coaching' gig which of course he can decline later if he doesn't want to do it... which makes it similar to what would happen if we fired him with 3 years remaining on his contract... in exchange for the security and recruiting stability of a 5 yr rolling contract... not saying we'd ever do that (fire him)... but that eliminates (or at least quantifies) the risk to the University to 3 years of getting SOME value from him (i.e. perhaps we're paying him 650k to do a job that is only worth 250k, but still... it's worth SOMETHING) and it allows OG the respect to remain and then retire on his terms.

The risk is for the HC in waiting, but there's really not a lot of risk there as he has a high profile position with a top baseball school and is learning from one of the best in history... and would likely still be pursued by other universities... but we'd have HIM under a 3yr or so contract as well so while certainly the top dogs could take him, we wouldn't likely lose him to Sam or DBU.

The only thing we do know for sure is the inexorable progression of the clock tick tocking down on this.

I am sure the AD realizes the status quo is a very bad state.

It might be that OG realizes that. If he doesnt, that is an inexcusable victim of pride. If he does, that is not a great testament to his drive to keep Rice top notch.

If OG thinks he can run the Rice program in the manner that it was run and with comparable results to the 2000 - 2010 time frame, that is his opinion.

The last two issues about this team show that that is not the case.

In the perfect world, OG would say "Been a great run, lets make sure my successes are a foundation for the future" and the AD would say "Awesome, how can we honor your service?"

Instead Rice has a 80 some odd year old coach that seems determined to keep his fingers in it until they are pried away. From an outside optics standpoint, this path that is being taken by both sides is a friggin recipe for disaster. I think the loss of the assistants and the de-commits are the canary in the coal mine at this point.

And granted, from an outside optics point of view if the AD simply unilaterally 'retires' Graham, that is as bad as Graham's insistence at maintaining his iron grip on the program as it heads to the looming 20 car pileup that is less than a year away.

Just to be fair and accurate, we lost only one coach due to the uncertainty-- Scott Shepperd. Van Hook left because he was offered a head coaching gig and knew he was unlikely to ever get offered the Rice head coaching job.
08-03-2017 03:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fort Bend Owl Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 17,608
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 168
I Root For: An easy win
Location:

The Parliament Awards
Post: #37
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
Van Hook is an assistant coach at Oklahoma, is he not?

God summer can't get over soon enough.......
08-03-2017 03:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
waltgreenberg Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 22,650
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 130
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Chicago

The Parliament Awards
Post: #38
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-03-2017 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Van Hook is an assistant coach at Oklahoma, is he not?

God summer can't get over soon enough.......

Whoops- my bad again...but my point was he did NOT leave because of the uncertainty. Rather, he left to coach under his long-time mentor (Skip Johnson), and he knew he wasn't going to be the one to replace The OG. Whether he got a salary boost or not, who knows.
08-03-2017 03:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 28,946
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 568
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #39
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
clarifying something....

My point isn't that Wayne is 'cheap'. My point is that he has BEEN cheap... and that it seems to take as much to hire a promising but unproven coach as it would to retain Wayne.... IOW, replacing Wayne, even at last years relatively poor performance isn't going to be riskless, easy or cheap. It's a toss-up in my mind as to whether UT or RU will perform better over the next 3 years under their current coaches... and UT has (as always) immeasurable advantages.

and I think Wayne has earned a 'parachute' from Rice Athletics.... hence my proposal. Be SHSU hiring promising but unproven Pierce in 2012 as HCIW, not UT hiring even more promising but still unproven (in the ability to get to Omaha) Pierce in 2017

Speculating on why we're in his last year and he wants to coach but there hasn't been an extension is fine... but getting upset and assigning all sorts of ill-intent to it is just wrong.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2017 03:44 PM by Hambone10.)
08-03-2017 03:42 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl1998 Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 267
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 4
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #40
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-03-2017 03:26 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(08-03-2017 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Van Hook is an assistant coach at Oklahoma, is he not?

God summer can't get over soon enough.......

Whoops- my bad again...but my point was he did NOT leave because of the uncertainty. Rather, he left to coach under his long-time mentor (Skip Johnson), and he knew he wasn't going to be the one to replace The OG. Whether he got a salary boost or not, who knows.

Walt, with all due respect, the uncertainty did in fact play a part in VH leaving. I can guarantee you. When Skip offered him a position it just gave him an out before the inevitable changing of the guard here which would leave him looking for a job.
08-03-2017 04:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2017 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2017 MyBB Group.