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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 02:27 PM)Minnewaska Owl Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 11:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Wayne's not killing the program... You guys need to get that out of your minds because it's insane. It's still by leaps and bounds the best program we have and any comparisons are laughable. If you want to argue that he's no longer a miracle worker and is returning to still be only one of the top 20 or so coaches in the game, that's fine... but the idea that there's another top 10 coach out there just clamoring for the job is a fantasy. Texas pays a coach whose best year has barely reached Wayne's LOWEST performance in the past 2+ decades more than we'd pay Wayne OR his replacement... and by a large margin. That same guy only stayed at Tulane, who is perhaps most comparable to us in many ways... for 1 year.

"Killing the Program" is definitely too strong a statement - and as people have responded above, I don't think anybody is saying that. But, I personally think it is time to bring in someone younger to take over the program. That person may not have Wayne's baseball knowledge, teaching acumen or game management skills - but my thinking is that we now need a younger leader who will be more engaged and effective in our recruiting efforts.

As for as baseball being our best program by leaps and bounds, I'm no longer sure about that. Women's basketball is coming on very strong. I would not be surprised at all to see our women's basketball team be more successful than our baseball team next year (based on which team makes it to the NCAA tournament - or comes closer to achieving that goal). Also ask yourself, which coach (women's basketball or men's baseball) is more likely to be targeted by a P5 school in the coming year. Based on recent trends, we may soon see women's basketball replacing baseball as the obvious "crown jewel" of the Rice Athletic Department.

It would have to leapfrog women's tennis, which is Rice's best team sport this decade.
08-02-2017 02:43 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 02:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 02:27 PM)Minnewaska Owl Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 11:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Wayne's not killing the program... You guys need to get that out of your minds because it's insane. It's still by leaps and bounds the best program we have and any comparisons are laughable. If you want to argue that he's no longer a miracle worker and is returning to still be only one of the top 20 or so coaches in the game, that's fine... but the idea that there's another top 10 coach out there just clamoring for the job is a fantasy. Texas pays a coach whose best year has barely reached Wayne's LOWEST performance in the past 2+ decades more than we'd pay Wayne OR his replacement... and by a large margin. That same guy only stayed at Tulane, who is perhaps most comparable to us in many ways... for 1 year.

"Killing the Program" is definitely too strong a statement - and as people have responded above, I don't think anybody is saying that. But, I personally think it is time to bring in someone younger to take over the program. That person may not have Wayne's baseball knowledge, teaching acumen or game management skills - but my thinking is that we now need a younger leader who will be more engaged and effective in our recruiting efforts.

As for as baseball being our best program by leaps and bounds, I'm no longer sure about that. Women's basketball is coming on very strong. I would not be surprised at all to see our women's basketball team be more successful than our baseball team next year (based on which team makes it to the NCAA tournament - or comes closer to achieving that goal). Also ask yourself, which coach (women's basketball or men's baseball) is more likely to be targeted by a P5 school in the coming year. Based on recent trends, we may soon see women's basketball replacing baseball as the obvious "crown jewel" of the Rice Athletic Department.

It would have to leapfrog women's tennis, which is Rice's best team sport this decade.

??? George, I'm a big supporter of women's tennis as well, and am a huge fan of Elizabeth, but do tell how women's tennis has leapfrogged baseball as Rice's best team sport this decade. Based on what criteria or measurement exactly?
08-02-2017 02:54 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 02:54 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 02:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 02:27 PM)Minnewaska Owl Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 11:25 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Wayne's not killing the program... You guys need to get that out of your minds because it's insane. It's still by leaps and bounds the best program we have and any comparisons are laughable. If you want to argue that he's no longer a miracle worker and is returning to still be only one of the top 20 or so coaches in the game, that's fine... but the idea that there's another top 10 coach out there just clamoring for the job is a fantasy. Texas pays a coach whose best year has barely reached Wayne's LOWEST performance in the past 2+ decades more than we'd pay Wayne OR his replacement... and by a large margin. That same guy only stayed at Tulane, who is perhaps most comparable to us in many ways... for 1 year.

"Killing the Program" is definitely too strong a statement - and as people have responded above, I don't think anybody is saying that. But, I personally think it is time to bring in someone younger to take over the program. That person may not have Wayne's baseball knowledge, teaching acumen or game management skills - but my thinking is that we now need a younger leader who will be more engaged and effective in our recruiting efforts.

As for as baseball being our best program by leaps and bounds, I'm no longer sure about that. Women's basketball is coming on very strong. I would not be surprised at all to see our women's basketball team be more successful than our baseball team next year (based on which team makes it to the NCAA tournament - or comes closer to achieving that goal). Also ask yourself, which coach (women's basketball or men's baseball) is more likely to be targeted by a P5 school in the coming year. Based on recent trends, we may soon see women's basketball replacing baseball as the obvious "crown jewel" of the Rice Athletic Department.

It would have to leapfrog women's tennis, which is Rice's best team sport this decade.

??? George, I'm a big supporter of women's tennis as well, and am a huge fan of Elizabeth, but do tell how women's tennis has leapfrogged baseball as Rice's best team sport this decade. Based on what criteria or measurement exactly?

I meant to say that women's tennis is Rice's best women's sport this decade.
But turns out that it's not far behind baseball. In the period 2010-2017:
- Conference champs: six regular season titles for baseball, five titles for women's tennis
- NCAA tournament appearances: eight for baseball, seven for women's tennis
- Regional champs: one for baseball (2013), one for women's tennis (2012)
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 06:39 PM by georgewebb.)
08-02-2017 03:35 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
The comment (killing the program) was made.

I'll take responsibility for misreading it as 'the uncertainty' vs 'wayne wanting an extension' and apologize... but clearly there are those who implied that Wayne is the problem/not cooperating etc etc etc.

As for these other programs... We're still comparing our HOPES for their best season (in decades) to be comparable and perhaps better than the WORST season in Rice baseball over those same decades.

It may eventually be comparable... It's not remotely comparable today.

The BIGGER issue and one I alluded to is that Rice isn't a destination in ANY other sport... and I'm betting if Women's basketball or Tennis gets a top 10 ranking that our coach will be hired away.... Well, maybe not women's tennis... no idea what the alternative opportunities are out there... but NO WAY we compete financially for coaches with top 10 programs in anything....

and that includes men's baseball.

It's not merely that Wayne built the program,.... but that he built it and then stayed. Has he peaked? I think what's really happened is that other schools have focused more on baseball. As I said, when we hired Wayne, UT paid their coach (with 3 NCs to his name at another school) about $175k/yr. They have steadily increased the gap between their coaches and ours, and others have followed suit. What do you think it would cost to hire a 55 yr old coach today with a NC on his resume? You think we'll pay it? And while the guy didn't fail at UT, he didn't set the world on fire either. UT just paid over $1mm/yr for a coach with 5 years college head coaching experience and no appearances in Omaha, never advancing beyond a regional.... much less a NC.

Some might say we'd love to have some of our former coaches back... I'm betting we can't afford most of them.

I'd be happy to name Pope or someone like that our formal heir apparent to bring some stability to the program... and if he gets a better offer before Wayne wants to retire then so be it...

Wayne is Joe Paterno (without the scandal). The ONLY way we get a 'better' replacement is to get them before they are known to BE a better replacement... which means they still have a lot to learn from The OG. Had we hired David Pierce, I'm betting UT would have outbid us for his services within 2 years... and suddenly baseball is another revolving door of coaches with us paying far less than our competitive peers, which means we revert to the mean.
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 04:25 PM by Hambone10.)
08-02-2017 04:21 PM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 04:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The comment (killing the program) was made.

I'll take responsibility for misreading it as 'the uncertainty' vs 'wayne wanting an extension' and apologize... but clearly there are those who implied that Wayne is the problem/not cooperating etc etc etc.

As for these other programs... We're still comparing our HOPES for their best season (in decades) to be comparable and perhaps better than the WORST season in Rice baseball over those same decades.

It may eventually be comparable... It's not remotely comparable today.

The BIGGER issue and one I alluded to is that Rice isn't a destination in ANY other sport... and I'm betting if Women's basketball or Tennis gets a top 10 ranking that our coach will be hired away.... Well, maybe not women's tennis... no idea what the alternative opportunities are out there... but NO WAY we compete financially for coaches with top 10 programs in anything....

and that includes men's baseball.

It's not merely that Wayne built the program,.... but that he built it and then stayed. Has he peaked? I think what's really happened is that other schools have focused more on baseball. As I said, when we hired Wayne, UT paid their coach (with 3 NCs to his name at another school) about $175k/yr. They have steadily increased the gap between their coaches and ours, and others have followed suit. What do you think it would cost to hire a 55 yr old coach today with a NC on his resume? You think we'll pay it? And while the guy didn't fail at UT, he didn't set the world on fire either. UT just paid over $1mm/yr for a coach with 5 years college head coaching experience and no appearances in Omaha, never advancing beyond a regional.... much less a NC.

Some might say we'd love to have some of our former coaches back... I'm betting we can't afford most of them.

I'd be happy to name Pope or someone like that our formal heir apparent to bring some stability to the program... and if he gets a better offer before Wayne wants to retire then so be it...

Wayne is Joe Paterno (without the scandal). The ONLY way we get a 'better' replacement is to get them before they are known to BE a better replacement... which means they still have a lot to learn from The OG. Had we hired David Pierce, I'm betting UT would have outbid us for his services within 2 years... and suddenly baseball is another revolving door of coaches with us paying far less than our competitive peers, which means we revert to the mean.

The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook. The reality is that OG will not coach very much longer. Whether it's 1 year or 5 years, either way the Graham era will come to an end. Other schools see this as an opportunity to poach players away by playing on the uncertainty. This has NOTHING to do with the OG being incapable of running the program. I, for one, still believe Graham is more than capable of winning at a high level. That's not the issue. The issue lies with Karlgaard and whether or not a decision will be made to bring the program into the next era before most of our recruits get scared away. You mentioned that other schools started putting more of an emphasis on baseball. I totally agree. That's why losing VH was a big blow. He was bringing Rice into the "new" way of recruiting. Going after the younger kids (I.e. TCU, A&M, UT, LSU, etc). Now that he's gone, it's imperative that JK and crew resolve OG's contract and facilitate the hiring of an assistant that can hold the recruiting classes together.

So far, this hasn't happened....and THAT is what will kill a program.
08-02-2017 04:55 PM
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cr11owl Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 04:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The comment (killing the program) was made.

I'll take responsibility for misreading it as 'the uncertainty' vs 'wayne wanting an extension' and apologize... but clearly there are those who implied that Wayne is the problem/not cooperating etc etc etc.

As for these other programs... We're still comparing our HOPES for their best season (in decades) to be comparable and perhaps better than the WORST season in Rice baseball over those same decades.

It may eventually be comparable... It's not remotely comparable today.

The BIGGER issue and one I alluded to is that Rice isn't a destination in ANY other sport... and I'm betting if Women's basketball or Tennis gets a top 10 ranking that our coach will be hired away.... Well, maybe not women's tennis... no idea what the alternative opportunities are out there... but NO WAY we compete financially for coaches with top 10 programs in anything....

and that includes men's baseball.

It's not merely that Wayne built the program,.... but that he built it and then stayed. Has he peaked? I think what's really happened is that other schools have focused more on baseball. As I said, when we hired Wayne, UT paid their coach (with 3 NCs to his name at another school) about $175k/yr. They have steadily increased the gap between their coaches and ours, and others have followed suit. What do you think it would cost to hire a 55 yr old coach today with a NC on his resume? You think we'll pay it? And while the guy didn't fail at UT, he didn't set the world on fire either. UT just paid over $1mm/yr for a coach with 5 years college head coaching experience and no appearances in Omaha, never advancing beyond a regional.... much less a NC.

Some might say we'd love to have some of our former coaches back... I'm betting we can't afford most of them.

I'd be happy to name Pope or someone like that our formal heir apparent to bring some stability to the program... and if he gets a better offer before Wayne wants to retire then so be it...

Wayne is Joe Paterno (without the scandal). The ONLY way we get a 'better' replacement is to get them before they are known to BE a better replacement... which means they still have a lot to learn from The OG. Had we hired David Pierce, I'm betting UT would have outbid us for his services within 2 years... and suddenly baseball is another revolving door of coaches with us paying far less than our competitive peers, which means we revert to the mean.

If we aren't willing to pay to keep our best program around the top 10 national status it's been at over the last 2 decades I'm not really sure we should be D1. I'm definitely sure I won't buy season tickets to everything or donate like I do now. Let's say UT sets the bar at 1 million a year for a HC. If we can't spend 750k-1mil per year to get a coach who performs at that level then what are we really doing? I understand in football we've fallen so far behind we can't bid with the P5s (we can but we choose not to and I've accepted that). Well in baseball that's not the case because no one is paying Harbaugh or Saban 8 mil (yet).

What's Leebron's salary again? Somewhere north of 1 million and he gets to live in a $15 million dollar university house.
08-02-2017 05:20 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.
08-02-2017 09:08 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 09:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.

The issue is one of the definition of a contract -- it has to be bilateral. I don't have any first hand insight, but do you think that OG would agree to that setup? I would suspect that there are a number of people (at least on this board) that probably doubt whether OG would actually agree to this setup.

Do you think that OG would cede that control to the AD in that manner? If so, why doesnt he ostensibly agree to a 'head coach in waiting' set up?

The fact that the situation is where it is, kind of seems to imply to me that the parties arent really interested in a halfsy type arrangement. The inactivity (and some comments) seem to imply (to me at least) that both sides are in a 'take it or leave it' stance. And the clock *is* ticking....
08-02-2017 09:59 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 09:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.

sounds good to me, or some variation thereof.
08-03-2017 12:09 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Another baseball de-commitment
(08-02-2017 09:59 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 09:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-02-2017 04:55 PM)Owl1998 Wrote:  The "killing the program" comment is simply referring to the uncertainty of the OG's contract situation and the failure to hire an assistant to replace Van Hook.

I thought I pretty well took blame for misreading you... I used your quote because whether you meant it that way or not, numerous others have suggested the same sentiment in numerous threads.

I think they should give him a rolling 5 year contract with a 3 year 'hook', meaning when he's ready to hang them up or we go in a different direction, we will reassign him in the department for 3 years. Consider it a golden parachute for all he's done.... and of course he DOES have some value he could bring to the program outside of coaching.

The issue is one of the definition of a contract -- it has to be bilateral. I don't have any first hand insight, but do you think that OG would agree to that setup? I would suspect that there are a number of people (at least on this board) that probably doubt whether OG would actually agree to this setup.

Do you think that OG would cede that control to the AD in that manner? If so, why doesnt he ostensibly agree to a 'head coach in waiting' set up?

The fact that the situation is where it is, kind of seems to imply to me that the parties arent really interested in a halfsy type arrangement. The inactivity (and some comments) seem to imply (to me at least) that both sides are in a 'take it or leave it' stance. And the clock *is* ticking....

We don't know that he hasn't. I think it just as likely that the AD hasn't.

I don't see how it's meaningfully different than what he's had before... we're merely giving him a built-in 3 year 'post-coaching' gig which of course he can decline later if he doesn't want to do it... which makes it similar to what would happen if we fired him with 3 years remaining on his contract... in exchange for the security and recruiting stability of a 5 yr rolling contract... not saying we'd ever do that (fire him)... but that eliminates (or at least quantifies) the risk to the University to 3 years of getting SOME value from him (i.e. perhaps we're paying him 650k to do a job that is only worth 250k, but still... it's worth SOMETHING) and it allows OG the respect to remain and then retire on his terms.

The risk is for the HC in waiting, but there's really not a lot of risk there as he has a high profile position with a top baseball school and is learning from one of the best in history... and would likely still be pursued by other universities... but we'd have HIM under a 3yr or so contract as well so while certainly the top dogs could take him, we wouldn't likely lose him to Sam or DBU.
08-03-2017 11:13 AM
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