(07-28-2017 10:17 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  I understand scheduling is hard and UB does get the benefit of having three geographical rivals not in the MAC so that helps with the OOC schedule right away. But CMU should start with having a home and home series every year with Detroit and Oakland

Yah, WMU tends to play either one of Detroit or Oakland every year. This year we got both. I think usually we only play one DIII team - Hope College or Kalamazoo College - and that's the exhibition. I don't think we ever play NAIAs. Our schedule isn't typically too great either, but CMU's is brutally bad. Surprised the MAC doesn't have a limit on how many of those you can schedule.

(07-28-2017 04:31 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 10:17 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  I understand scheduling is hard and UB does get the benefit of having three geographical rivals not in the MAC so that helps with the OOC schedule right away. But CMU should start with having a home and home series every year with Detroit and Oakland

Yah, WMU tends to play either one of Detroit or Oakland every year. This year we got both. I think usually we only play one DIII team - Hope College or Kalamazoo College - and that's the exhibition. I don't think we ever play NAIAs. Our schedule isn't typically too great either, but CMU's is brutally bad. Surprised the MAC doesn't have a limit on how many of those you can schedule.

That's what NIU USED to do. Not sure why that changed, unless the coach and AD are worried about job security and figure wins will get them that.

(07-28-2017 04:31 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 10:17 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  I understand scheduling is hard and UB does get the benefit of having three geographical rivals not in the MAC so that helps with the OOC schedule right away. But CMU should start with having a home and home series every year with Detroit and Oakland

Yah, WMU tends to play either one of Detroit or Oakland every year. This year we got both. I think usually we only play one DIII team - Hope College or Kalamazoo College - and that's the exhibition. I don't think we ever play NAIAs. Our schedule isn't typically too great either, but CMU's is brutally bad. Surprised the MAC doesn't have a limit on how many of those you can schedule.

They probably figure that if you are willing to play 4 non-div 1 schools then if you were told not to that you would end up playing the very bottom of div 1 instead. This would potentially be an even bigger problem because win or lose non-div one games essentially are not counted at all but a game against a bottom div one win or even worse lose does count against you in RPI and the like.

(07-28-2017 04:31 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 10:17 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  I understand scheduling is hard and UB does get the benefit of having three geographical rivals not in the MAC so that helps with the OOC schedule right away. But CMU should start with having a home and home series every year with Detroit and Oakland

Yah, WMU tends to play either one of Detroit or Oakland every year. This year we got both. I think usually we only play one DIII team - Hope College or Kalamazoo College - and that's the exhibition. I don't think we ever play NAIAs. Our schedule isn't typically too great either, but CMU's is brutally bad. Surprised the MAC doesn't have a limit on how many of those you can schedule.

It is an issue like squaring a circle or some other metaphor....

The MAC requires a min. number of HOME games. Believe it is the 9 conference games + 6 OOC games.

Some schools have difficulty getting 6 D-I opponents because of the cost of 'guarantee games' which can easily be 50 - 75K each.

So a NAIA school down the road may do a game for 8 - 10K.

Unless I am wrong, it is mostly a budgetary issue of trying to get 6 OOC home games without busting the budget. I can tell you EMU doesn't have 300 - 400K sitting around for OOC home games.

(07-28-2017 04:31 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Yah, WMU tends to play either one of Detroit or Oakland every year. This year we got both. I think usually we only play one DIII team - Hope College or Kalamazoo College - and that's the exhibition. I don't think we ever play NAIAs. Our schedule isn't typically too great either, but CMU's is brutally bad. Surprised the MAC doesn't have a limit on how many of those you can schedule.

WMU has hosted NAIA Rochester College the past couple of seasons (regular season game; not an exhibition). Hoping that won't be the case this season, but if EMU Steve is correct, that might be unavoidable. I can live with it if WMU limits it to one opponent.

The CMU schedule is ridiculous and does their team (and CMU fans) no favors. Other than the game at U-M, there is nothing on that schedule for CMU fans to get excited about. Worse, that schedule does very little to prepare CMU for MAC play.

(07-29-2017 02:36 PM)The Colonel Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 04:31 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Yah, WMU tends to play either one of Detroit or Oakland every year. This year we got both. I think usually we only play one DIII team - Hope College or Kalamazoo College - and that's the exhibition. I don't think we ever play NAIAs. Our schedule isn't typically too great either, but CMU's is brutally bad. Surprised the MAC doesn't have a limit on how many of those you can schedule.

WMU has hosted NAIA Rochester College the past couple of seasons (regular season game; not an exhibition). Hoping that won't be the case this season, but if EMU Steve is correct, that might be unavoidable. I can live with it if WMU limits it to one opponent.

The CMU schedule is ridiculous and does their team (and CMU fans) no favors. Other than the game at U-M, there is nothing on that schedule for CMU fans to get excited about. Worse, that schedule does very little to prepare CMU for MAC play.

FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT ... I offer this as a template for two tiers of MAC teams ..

Tier 1 (Proven programs/known contenders)

3 Games -Power Conference teams
4 Games - Traditional RPI 6-10 leagues (A-10 and such)
5 Games RPI 150-250
No non-D-1

Tier 2 (Rebuilding teams/new coaches)

2 Games - Power Conference
2 Games - Traditional RPI 6-10 leagues
6 Games - RPI 150-250
2 Games RPI 250-plus
No non D-1.

Understand MAC teams vs. Power conference teams should not focus on the Dukes as much as the NC States ... Don't focus on the Kansas as much as Kansas State ... Don't play Kentucky, but Miss. St. .. Don't play Michigan St., but Nebraska. ... Play them on the road, take the check and (hopefully) get a victory or two.

MAC vs. traditional RPI 6-10 leagues should (a) play the top tier in those conferences and try very hard to at least get 2-for-1 contracts. When it comes to Neutral Site tournaments, try to find as many of these teams in the field as possible.

Should be able to get home-and-homes vs. RPI 150-250
Should be able to buy games vs. RPI 250-plus ..

At the very least, a template like this consistently makes the MAC a 11-14 RPI league .... start winning a fair share of these and the MAC can possibly be a Top 8-10 RPI league with at-large potential.

But the entire league has to do it, CONSISTENTLY, particularly at the top, and not just one or two teams. Even when the quality (Buffalo, Ohio, WMU, Akron, Kent) programs are reloading they should not deviate from a template like this.

Coaches claiming they need a non D-1 to get their team ready should use it as an exhibition.

basically agree with a few exceptions

1) the games at the dukes and kansas and such are a thrill for the players. it is very rare to see a MAC team win them, although Ball St beat Kansas and UCLA back to back on a neutral court about 15 years ago and Kent won at Texas (on a down year) last season. I think the combination of the big check and big atmosphere is worth it, but, yeah, having a mix of 1 or 2 big name teams and 1 or 2 average power conf teams is a good fit. The MAC schools with some basketball pedigree need to work as hard as possible to get a home game in this group each year. Even if it's an Oregon St, Penn St, Depaul type team it is important for the fan base to see those uniforms on our courts. Spend a little extra, work the personal connections, shame the public universities in your footprint into throwing you a nine now and then. There are still a few coaches and ADs out there with some dignity.

2) MAC schools should emphasize 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 series with those high mid major conferences (A10, MWC, WCC, Valley, Horizon, CUSA). 2 for 1s are more of a football deal. However, some of those programs in those leagues are essentially power conference types like Gonzaga, VCU, San Diego St, BYU, etc... so hard to get them. But the home games against good to average high mid majors are crucial.

3) Once you get below about 150 RPI it's a crapshoot unless you are scheduling a low profile team that is traditionally really strong in their league, like a Texas Southern, North Dakota St, Marist, etc... Either get a solid low major program or a mediocre team with a bit of a regional or national name. A game against Yale or Youngstown St or E Kentucky isn't sexy but the locals probably have heard of them before.

Finally, back to Toledo, look at the schedule when it comes out. I'd call it the best UT's had in a decade and a model for the league. Granted, they've had some crappy ones in recent years too.

(07-29-2017 06:50 PM)pono Wrote:  basically agree with a few exceptions

1) the games at the dukes and kansas and such are a thrill for the players. it is very rare to see a MAC team win them, although Ball St beat Kansas and UCLA back to back on a neutral court about 15 years ago and Kent won at Texas (on a down year) last season. I think the combination of the big check and big atmosphere is worth it, but, yeah, having a mix of 1 or 2 big name teams and 1 or 2 average power conf teams is a good fit. The MAC schools with some basketball pedigree need to work as hard as possible to get a home game in this group each year. Even if it's an Oregon St, Penn St, Depaul type team it is important for the fan base to see those uniforms on our courts. Spend a little extra, work the personal connections, shame the public universities in your footprint into throwing you a nine now and then. There are still a few coaches and ADs out there with some dignity.

2) MAC schools should emphasize 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 series with those high mid major conferences (A10, MWC, WCC, Valley, Horizon, CUSA). 2 for 1s are more of a football deal. However, some of those programs in those leagues are essentially power conference types like Gonzaga, VCU, San Diego St, BYU, etc... so hard to get them. But the home games against good to average high mid majors are crucial.

3) Once you get below about 150 RPI it's a crapshoot unless you are scheduling a low profile team that is traditionally really strong in their league, like a Texas Southern, North Dakota St, Marist, etc... Either get a solid low major program or a mediocre team with a bit of a regional or national name. A game against Yale or Youngstown St or E Kentucky isn't sexy but the locals probably have heard of them before.

Finally, back to Toledo, look at the schedule when it comes out. I'd call it the best UT's had in a decade and a model for the league. Granted, they've had some crappy ones in recent years too.

Haven't seen Toledo's ... but Buffalo's is pretty close in my mind if all other MAC's mirrored it.

One problem with a lot of these home and homes:

If it is EMU vs. Detroit-Mercy or Oakland, no problem. Warm up the bus. No big expenses.

If it is EMU vs. Long Beach State, it is probably the home team keeps the gate receipts (or similar the visiting team gets say 25K). It costs money to take a MBB team to So. Cal. Our home gate receipts are chump change.

That said, it is better to do that, than pay 50 - 75K for a say Sagarin rated 200 OOC foe which will be criticized as a 'cupcake.'

Ball State schedule not yet released. What is known today is 3 road games: Dayton, Oklahoma, and Notre Dame.

Missouri valley, Ohio valley, horizon, summit, low level big 10, even the MAAC, several peer conferences to schedule. NAIA or even D 3 should not be allowed other than exibition.

(07-31-2017 06:07 AM)cmufanatic Wrote:  Missouri valley, Ohio valley, horizon, summit, low level big 10, even the MAAC, several peer conferences to schedule. NAIA or even D 3 should not be allowed other than exibition.

Bottom line ... no more than 2/3 games with teams from conferences outside the Top 20 .. with at least some combination of 5/6/7 games vs. teams from conferences inside the Top 10.

Again, there are enough bottom feeders in those Top 10 conferences that MAC teams should push hard to play ... even one-offs on the road ... that would go a long way toward 1) improving overall MAC schedule strength and 2) getting closer to true and legitimate at-large consideration ...

So far I know NIU has Chicago State, UIC, Marquette, and Iowa State on the schedule.

The MAC continues to lose site on men's basketball, especially around scheduling. Instead of mandating how many home games a team should play, often against sub-standard teams, they should follow this simple format.

(1) Play each conference team twice, home and away with all and do away with divisions; it's silly and means nothing, especially when they are ranked 1 through 12 for MACMadness
(2) Play one or two "home" preseason games against those Non-IA schools and these do not count at all in the final records
(3) Play nine non-conference games, all against D-I teams and mandate that six of these nine games are against top-200 rated teams from the previous years RPI or this year's expected RPI

In this format, who cares if you play anyone at home you already have 11 home conference games so now go out and find the best schedules possible against the best teams you can schedule. This will also help the MAC's conference RPI index because playing and beating non-DI teams only brings you down.

Anyone know if the other G5 Conferences have a hard time scheduling (outside of the American)? Hell, how's the Horizon schedule? (I'm thinking when it comes to basketball, the Horizon might be better than the MAC at this point)

Playing non-division 1 does not affect your RPI. It does not help but it does not hurt either. It is lost potential though if you ended up playing a bad team you could be worse off playing a div one school and also losing to that bad div 1 team can be really bad but losing to non-div one school is embarrassing but also does not affect your RPI.

I do not advocate playing really more than one non-div one school but if you replace that game with a bad div one school you are actually doing yourself a disservice.

(07-31-2017 02:41 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  The MAC continues to lose site on men's basketball, especially around scheduling. Instead of mandating how many home games a team should play, often against sub-standard teams, they should follow this simple format.

(1) Play each conference team twice, home and away with all and do away with divisions; it's silly and means nothing, especially when they are ranked 1 through 12 for MACMadness
(2) Play one or two "home" preseason games against those Non-IA schools and these do not count at all in the final records
(3) Play nine non-conference games, all against D-I teams and mandate that six of these nine games are against top-200 rated teams from the previous years RPI or this year's expected RPI

In this format, who cares if you play anyone at home you already have 11 home conference games so now go out and find the best schedules possible against the best teams you can schedule. This will also help the MAC's conference RPI index because playing and beating non-DI teams only brings you down.

This makes sense in the black and white of it ... but some gray must be considered.

1) Until, unless MAC actually goes to a full round-robin schedule, divisions make sense at least in regard to travel. Yes, the MAC Tournament is seeded 1-12 regardless, but that is more equitable that always giving the weaker division champ a 2-seed, even if they have the fourth-worst record. I can't remember which year it was, but one of the OU title years I believe, the Bobcats were seeded much lower than they should have been and pulled some early upsets that may have cost the MAC at-large CONSIDERATION.

2) All Division I teams can have private scrimmages against up to two Division I teams before the regular season starts. And most of these scrimmages actually go for three full halfs to get in a lot of work. Most teams do at least one, if not both. So what's the need for an 'exhibition' game (or any game for that matter) against a non-D1 or lower level opponent?

3) Here's the deal w/ the RPI ... for the first third of the season (basically non-conference) it is based on LAST YEARS NUMBERS while a baseline of new data is being accumulated. In January, voila, the new data is at hand just in time for the Big Boys to start playing each other.

That is why 'BracketBuster' was so huge ... because it matched mid-major teams with high RPI in February, when the numbers were 'true.' Sadly, that ship has sailed.

Ball State will playing Dayton, Notre Dame and OU (the other one) this year. I read that they only played 3 teams from the power conferences over the last 3 years so this is nice.

(07-31-2017 05:23 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  I do not advocate playing really more than one non-div one school but if you replace that game with a bad div one school you are actually doing yourself a disservice.

I'm of the school of thought that you play the very best teams that will agree to a home-and-homes.

(08-02-2017 10:29 AM)OUVan Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 05:23 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  I do not advocate playing really more than one non-div one school but if you replace that game with a bad div one school you are actually doing yourself a disservice.

I'm of the school of thought that you play the very best teams that will agree to a home-and-homes.

Then you will only be playing schools as good as you - maybe - and worse. Seldom will you play H&H with schools better than you. A sad reality, but clearly proven true.