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Ignore the flawed CBO
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Post: #1
Ignore the flawed CBO
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/reps-m...le/2629287

NC representative explains why CBO estimates should be recognized as flawed and frequently meaningless.
07-24-2017 10:46 AM
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Post: #2
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 10:46 AM)bullet Wrote:  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/reps-m...le/2629287

NC representative explains why CBO estimates should be recognized as flawed and frequently meaningless.

I said that the CBO was just as accurate as we are, which is, not much. They are just guessing. If those experts were living in Jacobs time they would be stoned for their prophetic inaccuracies.
07-24-2017 11:34 AM
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Godzilla Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...
07-24-2017 11:41 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
The accounting literature differentiates between projections and forecasts.

A projection is a "what if" analysis. If A, B, and C happen, then the result is likely to be D. You can postulate any assumption. You can have multiple projections with different assumptions.

A forecast is somewhat different. You do additional work to determine which sets of As, Bs, and Cs are most likely to occur, and then base your calculations on those most likely assumptions. You can have as many different projections as you have assumptions, but you can only have one forecast.

The problem with CBO estimates is that they tend to be treated as forecasts, when all they are is projections. And those projections are based upon assumptions that are fed to them by congress, not developed independently by CBO. What CBO does is basically add up the numbers and make sure that 2 plus 2 does in fact equal 4. They do a very good job of what they do, it's just that what the actually do is vastly different from what it is represented to be.

So in pricing out a bill, like the farm bill or Obamacare, congress may tell CBO to calculate the effect if 100,000 people take advantage of the program, and the average person gets $10,000. That's a fairly easy computation, the cost is $1 billion. But what if in actuality 150,000 people take advantage and the average per capita is $20,000. Now the cost is $3 billion. If CBO had the power to say, "Wait a minute, it looks like the number of people taking advantage is likely to be much closer to 150,000 than 100,000, and the average payout is likely to be closer to $20,000 than $10,000," then CBO's estimates would come a lot closer to reality. But that's not the way the system is set up.

If I'm sponsoring a bill, and I want it to pass, I'm going to give CBO scoring assumptions that understate the cost. And when CBO calculates the number, I'm going to say, "See, CBO says it will only cost $1 billion." Now CBO, and most likely I also, probably know that the cost is likely to be much closer to $3 billion than $1 billion, but the way the game is played nobody can mention that.

CBO came pretty close to telling the truth in its projections on Obamacare. If you look past the summary tables, and dig down into the detailed discussion of methodology, you will find that way back in the back they pretty much say that the assumptions on which the estimates are based can be achieved only if one of the following happens: 1) significantly reduced administrative costs (and we have seen that Obamacare requires significant additional administration), 2) significantly reduced access (take a number and get into the queue), or 3) significantly reduced quality (which will happen of its own accord if payments to providers are significantly reduced). But of course, nobody picked that up and ran with it. Democrats didn't want the truth, and republicans were too stupid to read the whole report.

As I understand the process, any senator or congressman can ask for a report based upon any set of assumptions. What republicans should have done with Obamacare is ask CBO to prepare a different projection based upon differing assumptions. But they were too stupid to do that.

CBO does generally employ Keynesian methodology, which tends to be very week on the supply side, and does generally employ static rather than dynamic analysis. This means that if, for example, paying docs less would likely result in fewer docs, they don't consider that in their methodology.

It's not that the CBO is incompetent or does a bad job of what they do. They actually do a decent job of what they do. You just have to understand the limitations of what they do. It's not intended to forecast a most likely scenario.
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2017 11:56 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-24-2017 11:49 AM
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Post: #5
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
Moat people don't know what the CBO does, what information it uses, and what assumptions it makes let alone why it was created. It was created by democrats in the mid 70's when they held a majority in both houses of Congress and wanted to limit the power of a republican president. Its developed into a lazy way for congress to be fed info and to use as a shield and a sword for PR as needed.
07-24-2017 11:57 AM
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olliebaba Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 11:41 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...

My disaster of a plan? If you want disasters you have one already the Oblundercare plan. What you can't understand is it's not easy fixing a car that was found in an abandoned field versus one that just came out of a dealership. We've had the field disaster for quite a bit of time already and can't find the parts to fit.

We also have Reps who are putting blockades to a repeal. Oblunder didn't have any, I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it". Those Demons didn't even care what was in it, they just wanted it passed. At least the Reps want to do it right and aren't following the party line like the Demons always do.
07-24-2017 12:02 PM
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Post: #7
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 11:41 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...

I did a quick search, and you'd be surprised how many of the conservative posters touted the CBO numbers when it supported their arguments against Obamacare.
07-24-2017 12:10 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
CBO estimates have become as political as network polling. Ignore it. Its just more fake news.
07-24-2017 12:12 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 12:02 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it".

Get the quote right. It was, "We have to pass the bill so that YOU can see what's in it."

Kind of the ultimate anti-transparency comment.
07-24-2017 12:26 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 12:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:02 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it".

Get the quote right. It was, "We have to pass the bill so that YOU can see what's in it."

Kind of the ultimate anti-transparency comment.

I love how you claim to be the fair and honest one but blatantly misrepresent that quote.
07-24-2017 12:33 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 12:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:02 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it".

Get the quote right. It was, "We have to pass the bill so that YOU can see what's in it."

Kind of the ultimate anti-transparency comment.

they knew XACLY! how they were setting things up back then.....now it's backfiring in their face.....DJT has tried to point that out time and time again.....

there's going to be a major shake-up at mid-terms if they fuxxor this opportunity......and to date, they're doing one helluva job.....

#nofriendsintheswamp
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2017 12:35 PM by stinkfist.)
07-24-2017 12:35 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 12:33 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:02 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it".
Get the quote right. It was, "We have to pass the bill so that YOU can see what's in it."
Kind of the ultimate anti-transparency comment.
I love how you claim to be the fair and honest one but blatantly misrepresent that quote.

You're right, my bad. The correct quote was, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

OK, OK, I know you're going to make some argument about taking it out of context. Fine, put it into what you think is the proper context and then explain how that changes it.
07-24-2017 12:42 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 11:49 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The accounting literature differentiates between projections and forecasts.

A projection is a "what if" analysis. If A, B, and C happen, then the result is likely to be D. You can postulate any assumption. You can have multiple projections with different assumptions.

A forecast is somewhat different. You do additional work to determine which sets of As, Bs, and Cs are most likely to occur, and then base your calculations on those most likely assumptions. You can have as many different projections as you have assumptions, but you can only have one forecast.

The problem with CBO estimates is that they tend to be treated as forecasts, when all they are is projections. And those projections are based upon assumptions that are fed to them by congress, not developed independently by CBO. What CBO does is basically add up the numbers and make sure that 2 plus 2 does in fact equal 4. They do a very good job of what they do, it's just that what the actually do is vastly different from what it is represented to be.

So in pricing out a bill, like the farm bill or Obamacare, congress may tell CBO to calculate the effect if 100,000 people take advantage of the program, and the average person gets $10,000. That's a fairly easy computation, the cost is $1 billion. But what if in actuality 150,000 people take advantage and the average per capita is $20,000. Now the cost is $3 billion. If CBO had the power to say, "Wait a minute, it looks like the number of people taking advantage is likely to be much closer to 150,000 than 100,000, and the average payout is likely to be closer to $20,000 than $10,000," then CBO's estimates would come a lot closer to reality. But that's not the way the system is set up.

If I'm sponsoring a bill, and I want it to pass, I'm going to give CBO scoring assumptions that understate the cost. And when CBO calculates the number, I'm going to say, "See, CBO says it will only cost $1 billion." Now CBO, and most likely I also, probably know that the cost is likely to be much closer to $3 billion than $1 billion, but the way the game is played nobody can mention that.

CBO came pretty close to telling the truth in its projections on Obamacare. If you look past the summary tables, and dig down into the detailed discussion of methodology, you will find that way back in the back they pretty much say that the assumptions on which the estimates are based can be achieved only if one of the following happens: 1) significantly reduced administrative costs (and we have seen that Obamacare requires significant additional administration), 2) significantly reduced access (take a number and get into the queue), or 3) significantly reduced quality (which will happen of its own accord if payments to providers are significantly reduced). But of course, nobody picked that up and ran with it. Democrats didn't want the truth, and republicans were too stupid to read the whole report.

As I understand the process, any senator or congressman can ask for a report based upon any set of assumptions. What republicans should have done with Obamacare is ask CBO to prepare a different projection based upon differing assumptions. But they were too stupid to do that.

CBO does generally employ Keynesian methodology, which tends to be very week on the supply side, and does generally employ static rather than dynamic analysis. This means that if, for example, paying docs less would likely result in fewer docs, they don't consider that in their methodology.

It's not that the CBO is incompetent or does a bad job of what they do. They actually do a decent job of what they do. You just have to understand the limitations of what they do. It's not intended to forecast a most likely scenario.

Well the accounting literature also prevents CPAs from being associated with projections that are known to have only unrealistic assumptions. You question management assumptions that don't make sense. CBO seems to be pure GIGO.
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2017 03:04 PM by bullet.)
07-24-2017 03:03 PM
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Post: #14
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 10:46 AM)bullet Wrote:  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/reps-m...le/2629287

NC representative explains why CBO estimates should be recognized as flawed and frequently meaningless.

Yup. And it's been largely true for a few decades now. They, for some reason, can't manage to understand things beyond "Step 1" of whatever policy is being examined.

As in- "22 million people may 'lose coverage', because the mandate is no longer there." When if you actually looked, most of those people are receiving Medicaid, which of course is FREE. So why would they drop coverage?

Or another, famously (No, I haven't read the article) can only look at ANY tax cut and decide how much it will "cost" the Treasury. Never considering that lower rates may well spur economic growth, job creation, more people pulling the wagon instead of riding in it and wage increases due to competition for employees.

Thus, MORE tax revenue coming in. Nope, can't consider that. Static scoring no matter what.

CBO should go the way of the Dodo bird. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2017 03:49 PM by JMUDunk.)
07-24-2017 03:42 PM
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Post: #15
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 11:41 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...

Exactly.

The GOP is trying to eliminate all dissent.


The GOP is hellbent on making the United States Russia - with a one-party Autocratic rule.
07-24-2017 03:46 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 03:46 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 11:41 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...

Exactly.

The GOP is trying to eliminate all dissent.


The GOP is hellbent on making the United States Russia - with a one-party Autocratic rule.

yeah....that's what DJT is trying to do......

both parties have been guilty of that for some time now......

another dippo bites the dust in what DJT is trying to accomplish.....

all you weirdos see is the mirror of mire....
07-24-2017 03:48 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 12:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:02 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it".

Get the quote right. It was, "We have to pass the bill so that YOU can see what's in it."

Kind of the ultimate anti-transparency comment.

Except that is not what was said - but you are too lazy to look it up and just regurgitate what FoxNews tells you to
07-24-2017 03:49 PM
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Post: #18
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 03:49 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 12:02 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I still remember those famous words, "we have to pass the bill so that we can see what's in it".

Get the quote right. It was, "We have to pass the bill so that YOU can see what's in it."

Kind of the ultimate anti-transparency comment.

Except that is not what was said - but you are too lazy to look it up and just regurgitate what FoxNews tells you to

you.....you.....you are most certainly screwing around with the wrong person with that context.....you're schooled and won't understand why when he simply grinds that one into dust.....

this should be fun......I already know you're 'better' than ol' johnny boy.....
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2017 03:55 PM by stinkfist.)
07-24-2017 03:55 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 03:46 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 11:41 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...

Exactly.

The GOP is trying to eliminate all dissent.


The GOP is hellbent on making the United States Russia - with a one-party Autocratic rule.

03-lmfao
07-24-2017 04:19 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Ignore the flawed CBO
(07-24-2017 03:46 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-24-2017 11:41 AM)Godzilla Wrote:  I doubt you would be saying this if they weren't bashing your disaster of a plan...

Exactly.

The GOP is trying to eliminate all dissent.


The GOP is hellbent on making the United States Russia - with a one-party Autocratic rule.

The Onion LIVES!
07-24-2017 04:34 PM
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