Link

More of a general topic but I see lots of issues with this.

1. Seems like a lot of money ($150 million) for 20k seats.
2. Terrible location. No public transportation. No parking. Not very accessible.
3. Even if they wedge it in there, zero chance for expansion
4. Have stadium financial projections ever panned out?
5. Has the "spur surrounding development" ever actually happened?

I'd say the odds are that it won't happen because Raleigh won't get an MLS franchise but if Raleigh gets the franchise I don't see a problem with a downtown location. There's plenty of parking. Where do you think all those state government employees who work nearby park? If you live way out in North Raleigh, you may never, ever visit downtown Raleigh and hate the idea of going downtown but I urge you to get over it. There's a lot going on downtown and there'll be more and more as time goes on.

In terms of the ACC, an MLS franchise is far preferable to an NBA or NFL franchise since there's little season overlap with college sports. I'm sure NCSU is happy to support this. NCSU really, really doesn't want the NBA or NFL in Raleigh, although they'll probably be here eventually. The rate of population growth here is just stunning.

A downtown stadium could work. I don't think that is the location. It reminds me of the Braves leaving a terrible location in downtown Atlanta for a stadium in the suburbs. The Dix property would be a much better location.

State and county employees park in state/county owned parking lots/decks. Employees have to pay for those parking spaces. Weekends might be OK but are you going to send state employees home early because there is a soccer game? Raleigh public transportation is virtually non-existent. Certainly nothing that is going to get you from North Raleigh to Peace Street. Getting to/from Red Hat with a much smaller capacity can be a challenge.

(07-19-2017 08:53 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  A downtown stadium could work. I don't think that is the location. It reminds me of the Braves leaving a terrible location in downtown Atlanta for a stadium in the suburbs. The Dix property would be a much better location.

State and county employees park in state/county owned parking lots/decks. Employees have to pay for those parking spaces. Weekends might be OK but are you going to send state employees home early because there is a soccer game? Raleigh public transportation is virtually non-existent. Certainly nothing that is going to get you from North Raleigh to Peace Street. Getting to/from Red Hat with a much smaller capacity can be a challenge.

Raleigh certainly has a bus system that will get you from North Raleigh to Peace Street. There's actually fairly frequent service down Six Forks and Falls of the Neuse. Don't you remember being trapped behind one of those buses?

Dix is a park. It's off limits for any stadium.

The area around Red Hat is likely to end up as a basketball arena eventually. That's almost certainly why that area isn't being considered for MLS.

If Raleigh doesn't get the franchise they'll still be a fantastic NASL club, Smith and the Charlotte bid is probably the preferred one for North Carolina.

(07-20-2017 03:30 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  If Raleigh doesn't get the franchise they'll still be a fantastic NASL club, Smith and the Charlotte bid is probably the preferred one for North Carolina.

I'm not so sure about that.

Charlotte's bid would require public financing as part of the stadium construction costs, while the Raleigh bid is proposing to build the actual stadium itself with private money. Now of course there will be public costs in the surrounding infrastructure (roads, utilities, etc.), but that might be palatable to those making decisions.

I also think the Charlotte bid may have shot itself in the foot given Smith's unwillingness to work with the current USL club that already calls Charlotte home. That can be overcome, but I see far more obstacles in the Charlotte bid than Raleigh's.

(07-20-2017 06:58 AM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 03:30 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  If Raleigh doesn't get the franchise they'll still be a fantastic NASL club, Smith and the Charlotte bid is probably the preferred one for North Carolina.

I'm not so sure about that.

Charlotte's bid would require public financing as part of the stadium construction costs, while the Raleigh bid is proposing to build the actual stadium itself with private money. Now of course there will be public costs in the surrounding infrastructure (roads, utilities, etc.), but that might be palatable to those making decisions.

I also think the Charlotte bid may have shot itself in the foot given Smith's unwillingness to work with the current USL club that already calls Charlotte home. That can be overcome, but I see far more obstacles in the Charlotte bid than Raleigh's.

The Charlotte bid is drawing serious opposition from the county commissioners. That's a very negative factor for Charlotte's chances.

(07-20-2017 06:58 AM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 03:30 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  If Raleigh doesn't get the franchise they'll still be a fantastic NASL club, Smith and the Charlotte bid is probably the preferred one for North Carolina.

I'm not so sure about that.

Charlotte's bid would require public financing as part of the stadium construction costs, while the Raleigh bid is proposing to build the actual stadium itself with private money. Now of course there will be public costs in the surrounding infrastructure (roads, utilities, etc.), but that might be palatable to those making decisions.

I also think the Charlotte bid may have shot itself in the foot given Smith's unwillingness to work with the current USL club that already calls Charlotte home. That can be overcome, but I see far more obstacles in the Charlotte bid than Raleigh's.

The only obstacle to Charlotte's bid is whether or not the city will contribute tourism tax dollars. The deal is pretty favorable for the county since they will get a completely modernized stadium along with over a 100 million in future payments from the team. Now the Raleigh bid is contingent on state level support since they own the land plus it will require money for infrastructure from the city/county(which is what the proposed money is for in Charlotte along with every other city that seeks public/private deals like these). So you think it's easier to convince the multiple factions of state government & any potential political/ legal challenges to any deal than the majority of 11 city council members?

(07-19-2017 07:59 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Link

More of a general topic but I see lots of issues with this.

1. Seems like a lot of money ($150 million) for 20k seats.
2. Terrible location. No public transportation. No parking. Not very accessible.
3. Even if they wedge it in there, zero chance for expansion
4. Have stadium financial projections ever panned out?
5. Has the "spur surrounding development" ever actually happened?

I believe GoRaleigh has multiple routes that go downtown, do they not? Is there not a "Moore Square" station downtown...? I don't understand your "No public transportation" comment.

The location is very good -- I wonder if the (Carolina) Hurricanes are kicking themselves for not getting a downtown arena.

IMHO, 22K seats is a good place for soccer and whatever other options would present themselves in the future.

If Jim Goodman is for it, NC State should be against it.

(07-20-2017 03:21 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  If Jim Goodman is for it, NC State should be against it.

You're gonna have to explain that one. Being on the same side as Jim Goodman is generally a very good idea. He's got the money to make things happen.

(07-20-2017 04:01 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 03:21 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  If Jim Goodman is for it, NC State should be against it.

You're gonna have to explain that one. Being on the same side as Jim Goodman is generally a very good idea. He's got the money to make things happen.

He may be on YOUR side, and he's always on UNC's side, but he and his stations are never on OUR side.

This is not the appropriate forum to go into detail.

Two Mecklenburg County state reps one from each party have already come out as being opposed to any deal involving this land & view it as the state helping one city over the other(I don't see it that way)but this deal could die fast & either way I doubt they get a deal done this year either way

(07-20-2017 05:54 PM)mj4life Wrote:  Two Mecklenburg County state reps one from each party have already come out as being opposed to any deal involving this land & view it as the state helping one city over the other(I don't see it that way)but this deal could die fast & either way I doubt they get a deal done this year either way

It's not even "helping" Raleigh. The site is part of the State Capital Office Complex and these are some horrible Stalanist/LeCoubsie mounds of ****, but the proper replacement is not a stupid soccer stadium, but high density mixed use. Raleigh has been working toward a light rail line for 35 years and you need population density to make it work, knocking out a hole in Downtown is dumb.

Moreover the actual site has some issues when you go down 20-30 feet. It's not what it appears on the surface, so the actual development cost will go through the roof once a soils analysis is done. The bottom is below the elevation of Crabtree Creek, which is not a problem for small footprints, but a huge one will one day find Crabtree Creek in it after a Tropical Storm.

Yes, Raleigh has a public bus system. There is no way it would be able to get a large number of fans to and from that location in a reasonable time. It can't even handle the state fair which is fewer riders spread out over an 18 hour day. Routes to/from North Raleigh, where fans with disposable income are, are limited. Only 1 route extends beyond I540 and that is only because of WakeMed North.

For me to take a bus from North Raleigh I would have to drive ~4 miles to a bus stop. Then make 5-6 transfers and I would still have to walk 1/2 a mile or more to the proposed site.

There is a station at Moore Square. It will never be confused with Grand Central Station. I don't believe it can handle that volume of traffic in that short of a time.

The Dix site was sold to the city of Raleigh. Raleigh designated it a park. Raleigh could designate it a watermelon if they wanted to. It's a huge piece of property with more room and better access.

(07-20-2017 08:31 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 05:54 PM)mj4life Wrote:  Two Mecklenburg County state reps one from each party have already come out as being opposed to any deal involving this land & view it as the state helping one city over the other(I don't see it that way)but this deal could die fast & either way I doubt they get a deal done this year either way

It's not even "helping" Raleigh. The site is part of the State Capital Office Complex and these are some horrible Stalanist/LeCoubsie mounds of ****, but the proper replacement is not a stupid soccer stadium, but high density mixed use. Raleigh has been working toward a light rail line for 35 years and you need population density to make it work, knocking out a hole in Downtown is dumb.

Moreover the actual site has some issues when you go down 20-30 feet. It's not what it appears on the surface, so the actual development cost will go through the roof once a soils analysis is done. The bottom is below the elevation of Crabtree Creek, which is not a problem for small footprints, but a huge one will one day find Crabtree Creek in it after a Tropical Storm.

What difference would it make if the foundations of a stadium are damp at the bottom? They wouldn't be wooden. For that matter, Venice was built on top of wooden pilings in a swamp and still hasn't fallen into the Adriatic. Maybe I've got too much faith in engineers but this doesn't sound to me like it would be a big deal. Anyway, my eyeballs tell me that the creek (is that one really Crabtree?) is a lot more than 30 feet below where they're talking about building this. By the way, did you know there used to be a baseball stadium located just about on the banks of that creek? Of course, that stadium was eventually abandoned.

The point about population density may have merit but I have a hard time seeing high rise apartments on the edge of Oakwood. We'd all like to see the dismal Halifax Square buildings demolished. That's likely to happen one way or another.

(07-20-2017 09:22 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 08:31 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 05:54 PM)mj4life Wrote:  Two Mecklenburg County state reps one from each party have already come out as being opposed to any deal involving this land & view it as the state helping one city over the other(I don't see it that way)but this deal could die fast & either way I doubt they get a deal done this year either way

It's not even "helping" Raleigh. The site is part of the State Capital Office Complex and these are some horrible Stalanist/LeCoubsie mounds of ****, but the proper replacement is not a stupid soccer stadium, but high density mixed use. Raleigh has been working toward a light rail line for 35 years and you need population density to make it work, knocking out a hole in Downtown is dumb.

Moreover the actual site has some issues when you go down 20-30 feet. It's not what it appears on the surface, so the actual development cost will go through the roof once a soils analysis is done. The bottom is below the elevation of Crabtree Creek, which is not a problem for small footprints, but a huge one will one day find Crabtree Creek in it after a Tropical Storm.

What difference would it make if the foundations of a stadium are damp at the bottom? They wouldn't be wooden. For that matter, Venice was built on top of wooden pilings in a swamp and still hasn't fallen into the Adriatic. Maybe I've got too much faith in engineers but this doesn't sound to me like it would be a big deal. Anyway, my eyeballs tell me that the creek (is that one really Crabtree?) is a lot more than 30 feet below where they're talking about building this. By the way, did you know there used to be a baseball stadium located just about on the banks of that creek? Of course, that stadium was eventually abandoned.

The point about population density may have merit but I have a hard time seeing high rise apartments on the edge of Oakwood. We'd all like to see the dismal Halifax Square buildings demolished. That's likely to happen one way or another.

The real intent of this project has yet to surface. Yes I do remember where the old baseball "stadium" was between Capital Boulevard and West Street. I used to live on Glenwood in apartments there were built on the old Methodist Home property.

Maybe I am living in the past but I just don't see Tim Moore and Phil Berger giving that land away and something like this reminds me of the conversion of Cannon Mills and Kanapolis paid for the by the State and certainly not benefiting NC State University. You never know when the other shoe is going to drop in Raleigh and NC State is then expected to go along with something.

(07-20-2017 08:31 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 05:54 PM)mj4life Wrote:  Two Mecklenburg County state reps one from each party have already come out as being opposed to any deal involving this land & view it as the state helping one city over the other(I don't see it that way)but this deal could die fast & either way I doubt they get a deal done this year either way

It's not even "helping" Raleigh. The site is part of the State Capital Office Complex and these are some horrible Stalanist/LeCoubsie mounds of ****, but the proper replacement is not a stupid soccer stadium, but high density mixed use. Raleigh has been working toward a light rail line for 35 years and you need population density to make it work, knocking out a hole in Downtown is dumb.

Moreover the actual site has some issues when you go down 20-30 feet. It's not what it appears on the surface, so the actual development cost will go through the roof once a soils analysis is done. The bottom is below the elevation of Crabtree Creek, which is not a problem for small footprints, but a huge one will one day find Crabtree Creek in it after a Tropical Storm.

Depends on the details of a proposed deal.BoA stadium land is leased to the Panthers for 1 dollar per year for 99 years & the baseball stadium involved land swaps between the city,county & private developers with a similar lease arrangement. Hard for me to see the state agreeing to anything remotely close to that. Now if the state wants to sell the land & lease the newly constructed buildings that's a whole different ball game

(07-20-2017 04:01 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 03:21 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  If Jim Goodman is for it, NC State should be against it.

You're gonna have to explain that one. Being on the same side as Jim Goodman is generally a very good idea. He's got the money to make things happen.

I think you are confused between the Jim's. Dr. Goodknight is one of NCSU biggest benafactors and many get the two confused. Goodman to my knowledge has not done much to help NCSU. I am really surprised he didn't try and put the stadium in Durham. The true location should be Cary which is outside of Raleigh who built Soccer up in this area. I usually support anything to help the triangle area, but if Goodmon is involved, I am hoping this project does not succeed. Just my opinion.

Hmm interesting, I figured it was Malik who was running the Raleigh bid with his NCFC club, guess I haven't been paying close enough attention. (Probably due to it being an MLS thing)