No matter what expansion happens, the power schools and CFP will say top 8 teams not conference champions. Thus ensuring they don't have to take a G5 champ and keeping the money. Just the reality of the situation.

(07-15-2017 06:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:05 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:33 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  But "playoff creep" has never been a topic involving Group of Five teams. Air Force coach Troy Calhoun has an idea that would change that. In essence, he wants a four-team Group of Five playoff, the winner of which would then move on to an eight-team College Football Playoff featuring the five Power Five conference champs plus two wild card teams. The Colorado Springs Gazette explained Calhoun's theory ...

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...-overkill/

It would be a fun event...IF it didn't lead to any sort of situation, or a hypothetical possibility of a Boise run or Utah or TCU run of past dozen or so seasons allowing for those teams get into the current 4 team playoff. Non power teams who would likely have played in the 4 team playoff if it had existed:

2004 Utah team--12-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2008 Utah team--13-0 Sugar Bowl champs
2009 Boise team--14-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2010 TCU team--13-0 Rose Bowl champs
Those teams do don't belong in any 4 team G5 playoff, they belonged with the big boys in the Big Boy Playoff.

Couldn't disagree more. Only 2010 TCU team would have had any shot of beating top 4 team.

Then they would have lost. Lots of teams have fared poorly in the playoffs. The fact is, the G5's have pretty consistently done well in their bowl game vs teams they "had no chance" to beat. Let it play out on the field. If they are outclassed---they are outclassed. If the G5 wins---they advance.

That sounds nice in theory but it doesn't work.

We know these teams are outclassed. We don't need blowouts to prove it.

Your opinion pretty much dominates the selection committee (which is why I think no G5 will ever be selected for the CFP in the current system).

The reality is what you theoretically "know" and what has actually happened have been quite different when the games are really played out on the field. If the G5 champ is such a push over, then there will be a real incentive to finish first for a "bye week" against the G5. Take the push over and get ready for your next opponent. BTW---it seems to be the G5's have a winning record vs the P5 in NYD games.....so, its not really a one time thing. I think Hawaii was really the only blow out that comes to mind....

The AAC will never agree to be apart on this nonsense

Too many games. This proposal would give the P5 an opportunity to take back the CFP money and G5 teams would lose their most lucrative bowls. I don't see the networks ponying up $160 million for a G5 playoff.

Too many games to be played especially for the G5 conferences under this plan.

(07-15-2017 05:33 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  But "playoff creep" has never been a topic involving Group of Five teams. Air Force coach Troy Calhoun has an idea that would change that. In essence, he wants a four-team Group of Five playoff, the winner of which would then move on to an eight-team College Football Playoff featuring the five Power Five conference champs plus two wild card teams. The Colorado Springs Gazette explained Calhoun's theory ...

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...-overkill/

It would be a fun event...IF it didn't lead to any sort of situation, or a hypothetical possibility of a Boise run or Utah or TCU run of past dozen or so seasons allowing for those teams get into the current 4 team playoff. Non power teams who would likely have played in the 4 team playoff if it had existed:

2004 Utah team--12-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2008 Utah team--13-0 Sugar Bowl champs
2009 Boise team--14-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2010 TCU team--13-0 Rose Bowl champs
Those teams do don't belong in any 4 team G5 playoff, they belonged with the big boys in the Big Boy Playoff.

Two of those three programs just ended up being poached by a true power conference, which therein lies the biggest obstacle to a guaranteed spot for a G5 program under the CFP. If a team is truly on the level of competing against the Alabamas, the Florida States, the Clemsons, the Ohio States, etc., then they (the power conferences and networks) won't reward them (the G5) with a playoff spot - they will just poach that program for a power conference to ensure their division and separation.

I have a hard time seeing the G5 getting a guaranteed CFP spot long-term. That won't stop the push from the G5, however, and nor should it. They should be doing everything they can to try and get in before the next wave hits in a couple of years. After that, the separation may be final.

Long-term, the G5 playoff - I believe - actually has merit. If you are officially locked out of the Division 1/FBS playoff against the power conferences, why not hold your own postseason within your division and attempt to get a little extra money? There may not be a great alternative to that.

(07-15-2017 05:44 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Just take the top G5 Champ like they do now for the access to a playoff.

NO NEED to have a separate G5 Playoff and get 1 or 2 games of getting beat up before playing in the 8 team playoff.

I don't see an 8-team G5 scenario working with an 8-team CFB playoff system. Too many games. Potentially, 6 games for the G5 winner who makes a Cinderella run?!?! I mean, it's improbable but that's possible with that set up.

I've been a big G5 playoff proponent (and vilified on this board by my G5 friends), but if they want to give the G5 an auto-bid to the Big Dance (8-team), then they need to have a G5 semi-final and final only. And they need to drop the G5 conference championship games too.

Does anyone know how much money is at stake for the G5 CCGs? Is it worth it for them to drop 5 meaningless CCGs to add 3 playoff games (which would then tie into the Big Dance elite 8) that would also crown a "champion" of the whole G5?

(07-16-2017 09:59 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:33 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  But "playoff creep" has never been a topic involving Group of Five teams. Air Force coach Troy Calhoun has an idea that would change that. In essence, he wants a four-team Group of Five playoff, the winner of which would then move on to an eight-team College Football Playoff featuring the five Power Five conference champs plus two wild card teams. The Colorado Springs Gazette explained Calhoun's theory ...

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...-overkill/

It would be a fun event...IF it didn't lead to any sort of situation, or a hypothetical possibility of a Boise run or Utah or TCU run of past dozen or so seasons allowing for those teams get into the current 4 team playoff. Non power teams who would likely have played in the 4 team playoff if it had existed:

2004 Utah team--12-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2008 Utah team--13-0 Sugar Bowl champs
2009 Boise team--14-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2010 TCU team--13-0 Rose Bowl champs
Those teams do don't belong in any 4 team G5 playoff, they belonged with the big boys in the Big Boy Playoff.

Two of those three programs just ended up being poached by a true power conference, which therein lies the biggest obstacle to a guaranteed spot for a G5 program under the CFP. If a team is truly on the level of competing against the Alabamas, the Florida States, the Clemsons, the Ohio States, etc., then they (the power conferences and networks) won't reward them (the G5) with a playoff spot - they will just poach that program for a power conference to ensure their division and separation.

I have a hard time seeing the G5 getting a guaranteed CFP spot long-term. That won't stop the push from the G5, however, and nor should it. They should be doing everything they can to try and get in before the next wave hits in a couple of years. After that, the separation may be final.

Long-term, the G5 playoff - I believe - actually has merit. If you are officially locked out of the Division 1/FBS playoff against the power conferences, why not hold your own postseason within your division and attempt to get a little extra money? There may not be a great alternative to that.

As long as the G5 and P5 theoretically are chasing the same national championship trophy---a G5 championship has no merit and likely is of no significant monetary value. If they had significant value, those G5 playoff games could be held today as bowl games. But to date, no network has offered the cash necessary to make G5 champ vs G5 champ a "thing". It's unlikely the MW or AAC would be interested in a G5 champ vs G5 champ bowl game without some major financial incentive.

Where the G5 could improve thier post season is by investing a potion of thier CFP playoff money in developing a series of high paying bowls with payoffs high enough to attract high selections from the P5. These bowls would serve as post season destinations for G5 champs not on the access bowls.

(07-15-2017 05:11 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The P5 has not intention of expanding the playoff in order to provide G5 guaranteed access

(07-15-2017 05:44 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Just take the top G5 Champ like they do now for the access to a playoff.

Sorry, but like vandiver said, I absolutely believe that the G5 will never get a guaranteed spot in the playoff, in our lifetimes. I think they'll have every opportunity to force the committee's hand, if a G5 team had such an incredible season that they could not refuse them. But I think that's about as good as you're ever going to get, with that much money and TV ratings on the line.

(07-16-2017 09:59 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Two of those three programs just ended up being poached by a true power conference, which therein lies the biggest obstacle to a guaranteed spot for a G5 program under the CFP. If a team is truly on the level of competing against the Alabamas, the Florida States, the Clemsons, the Ohio States, etc., then they (the power conferences and networks) won't reward them (the G5) with a playoff spot - they will just poach that program for a power conference to ensure their division and separation.

Except for Houston! You can thank the Big 8 schools for screwing that up, last year.

Same would go for USF, if it wins the AAC and beats a P5 in the Access Bowl. No room at the inn for a school like that ....

(07-16-2017 08:52 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  Too many games. This proposal would give the P5 an opportunity to take back the CFP money and G5 teams would lose their most lucrative bowls. I don't see the networks ponying up $160 million for a G5 playoff.

And this is the real conundrum. Games could be reduced by eliminating CCG and body bag games. But there isn't a way to compensate the P5 for the loss of revenue.

(07-15-2017 07:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:59 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:05 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  Couldn't disagree more. Only 2010 TCU team would have had any shot of beating top 4 team.

Then they would have lost. Lots of teams have fared poorly in the playoffs. The fact is, the G5's have pretty consistently done well in their bowl game vs teams they "had no chance" to beat. Let it play out on the field. If they are outclassed---they are outclassed. If the G5 wins---they advance.

That sounds nice in theory but it doesn't work.

We know these teams are outclassed. We don't need blowouts to prove it.

I remember watching the 2009 Sugar Bowl when Barry Switzer working for Fox for the game said "Alabama is going to crush Utah" He basically said the game wasn't worth playing. He was right. Utah outclassed Alabama. I know we didn't need to watch Alabama get outclassed by Utah that night to prove who the better team was...but it was fun to watch a lowly MWC scrub team crush a mighty sec team.
The 2 games Ive made the most money on betting was that Sugar Bowl and the Rose Bowl when TCU beat Whiskey....

"Remember that one time!"

That's all you have. It's a tired argument.

Exceptions do not make rules.

I gave 4 examples over a 6 year period. You omitted them on your reply back to me so let me repost:
2004 Utah team
2008 Utah team
2009 Boise St team
2010 TCU team
I didn't even include the 2006 Boise team or the 2009 TCU team. I'm not tired of the argument.

(07-16-2017 05:23 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 07:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:59 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Then they would have lost. Lots of teams have fared poorly in the playoffs. The fact is, the G5's have pretty consistently done well in their bowl game vs teams they "had no chance" to beat. Let it play out on the field. If they are outclassed---they are outclassed. If the G5 wins---they advance.

That sounds nice in theory but it doesn't work.

We know these teams are outclassed. We don't need blowouts to prove it.

I remember watching the 2009 Sugar Bowl when Barry Switzer working for Fox for the game said "Alabama is going to crush Utah" He basically said the game wasn't worth playing. He was right. Utah outclassed Alabama. I know we didn't need to watch Alabama get outclassed by Utah that night to prove who the better team was...but it was fun to watch a lowly MWC scrub team crush a mighty sec team.
The 2 games Ive made the most money on betting was that Sugar Bowl and the Rose Bowl when TCU beat Whiskey....

"Remember that one time!"

That's all you have. It's a tired argument.

Exceptions do not make rules.

I gave 4 examples over a 6 year period. You omitted them on your reply back to me so let me repost:
2004 Utah team
2008 Utah team
2009 Boise St team
2010 TCU team
I didn't even include the 2006 Boise team or the 2009 TCU team. I'm not tired of the argument.

I also remember the skewer UCF got shoved up its backside during the 2013 BCS selection show.

(07-15-2017 09:43 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  No matter what expansion happens, the power schools and CFP will say top 8 teams not conference champions. Thus ensuring they don't have to take a G5 champ and keeping the money. Just the reality of the situation.

Even as a G5 fan, I'm afraid you're right unless the G5 can pull off what Scott Cowen and the other G5 presidents pulled off to get the G5 into BCS bowls. That would definitely be the equalizer.

Had a brainstorm while contemplating the college football season vs the college basketball season. NCAA men's basketball has like a preseason NIT, and a lot of tournaments and conference challenge tournaments. If the G5 could do a football equivalent of this, while it would not necessarily guarantee the G5 a spot of at the CFP table, it would make G5 appearances a lot more common, IMO. Basically this, take Calhoun's idea, and instead of doing it at the end of the year, do it at the beginning. I'm sure some wouldn't go for it for various reasons, but I think at the same time, some teams would go for it, and it would bolster strength of schedule for those G5 challengers.

(07-16-2017 08:55 AM)panite Wrote:  Too many games to be played especially for the G5 conferences under this plan.

That's true.

12 game season + CCG, + 2 or 3 game G5 playoff + 3 game CFP playoff. So 18 or 19 games? No one is going to sign off on that.

A G4 playoff idea is great. Champ from MWC, Cusa, Mac, and Belt seeded 1 to 4.

Everyone else fills the needed spots in their conf bowl games.

(07-16-2017 09:59 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:33 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 05:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  But "playoff creep" has never been a topic involving Group of Five teams. Air Force coach Troy Calhoun has an idea that would change that. In essence, he wants a four-team Group of Five playoff, the winner of which would then move on to an eight-team College Football Playoff featuring the five Power Five conference champs plus two wild card teams. The Colorado Springs Gazette explained Calhoun's theory ...

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...-overkill/

It would be a fun event...IF it didn't lead to any sort of situation, or a hypothetical possibility of a Boise run or Utah or TCU run of past dozen or so seasons allowing for those teams get into the current 4 team playoff. Non power teams who would likely have played in the 4 team playoff if it had existed:

2004 Utah team--12-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2008 Utah team--13-0 Sugar Bowl champs
2009 Boise team--14-0 Fiesta Bowl champs
2010 TCU team--13-0 Rose Bowl champs
Those teams do don't belong in any 4 team G5 playoff, they belonged with the big boys in the Big Boy Playoff.

Two of those three programs just ended up being poached by a true power conference, which therein lies the biggest obstacle to a guaranteed spot for a G5 program under the CFP. If a team is truly on the level of competing against the Alabamas, the Florida States, the Clemsons, the Ohio States, etc., then they (the power conferences and networks) won't reward them (the G5) with a playoff spot - they will just poach that program for a power conference to ensure their division and separation.

I have a hard time seeing the G5 getting a guaranteed CFP spot long-term. That won't stop the push from the G5, however, and nor should it. They should be doing everything they can to try and get in before the next wave hits in a couple of years. After that, the separation may be final.

Woah slow down here.

The BCS system had "autobids" for 6 select conferences and a championship game.

The CFP was created to take the Top 4 (solving who belongs in the champ game problem) and no autobids (solving anti-trust issues). It had nothing to do with P5/G5 separation at all.

The playoff was found to be worth more when bowls like the Orange Bowl and Rose Bowl were part of it and the P5 wanted to still have NYD bowls for their champions. The G5 watched its share of the money triple from 7% to 21% and with a guaranteed CFP bowl for its champion.

Quotes from G5 commissioners at the time were to the effect that college football is becoming more integrated than it was. The disappointing factor has been the CFP ranking system putting a huge emphasis on SOS which the G5 can't compete with.

Think a little about the history of the G5. Ten years ago it was MWC, WAC, SBC, CUSA, MAC. Twenty years ago it was WAC, MAC, CUSA. The WAC and CUSA were tweener conferences with voting rights of the BCS 6. The 5 conferences that comprise the G5 don't want to be in a division together.

(07-17-2017 10:29 PM)goodknightfl Wrote:  A G4 playoff idea is great. Champ from MWC, Cusa, Mac, and Belt seeded 1 to 4.

Everyone else fills the needed spots in their conf bowl games.

Calhoun is talking about a 4 team play-in for an autobid to the 8 team playoff.

That is not the same thing as a separate playoff.

I'd rather go 8 team, no autobid & 8 NYD bowls w/Top 2 G5 participants. I know the AAC doesn't want to be part of the G anymore BUT by the time the P5 is done raiding it there won't be enough left in the AAC to justify a contract bowl.

(07-15-2017 07:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:59 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 06:05 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  Couldn't disagree more. Only 2010 TCU team would have had any shot of beating top 4 team.

Then they would have lost. Lots of teams have fared poorly in the playoffs. The fact is, the G5's have pretty consistently done well in their bowl game vs teams they "had no chance" to beat. Let it play out on the field. If they are outclassed---they are outclassed. If the G5 wins---they advance.

That sounds nice in theory but it doesn't work.

We know these teams are outclassed. We don't need blowouts to prove it.

I remember watching the 2009 Sugar Bowl when Barry Switzer working for Fox for the game said "Alabama is going to crush Utah" He basically said the game wasn't worth playing. He was right. Utah outclassed Alabama. I know we didn't need to watch Alabama get outclassed by Utah that night to prove who the better team was...but it was fun to watch a lowly MWC scrub team crush a mighty sec team.
The 2 games Ive made the most money on betting was that Sugar Bowl and the Rose Bowl when TCU beat Whiskey....

"Remember that one time!"

That's all you have. It's a tired argument.

Exceptions do not make rules.

Non-AQ/G5 beating BCS/P5 teams in BCS/NY6 games is most certainly the norm, not the exception.


[LINK TO IMAGE]

(07-17-2017 12:34 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(07-15-2017 09:43 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  No matter what expansion happens, the power schools and CFP will say top 8 teams not conference champions. Thus ensuring they don't have to take a G5 champ and keeping the money. Just the reality of the situation.

Even as a G5 fan, I'm afraid you're right unless the G5 can pull off what Scott Cowen and the other G5 presidents pulled off to get the G5 into BCS bowls. That would definitely be the equalizer.

Had a brainstorm while contemplating the college football season vs the college basketball season. NCAA men's basketball has like a preseason NIT, and a lot of tournaments and conference challenge tournaments. If the G5 could do a football equivalent of this, while it would not necessarily guarantee the G5 a spot of at the CFP table, it would make G5 appearances a lot more common, IMO. Basically this, take Calhoun's idea, and instead of doing it at the end of the year, do it at the beginning. I'm sure some wouldn't go for it for various reasons, but I think at the same time, some teams would go for it, and it would bolster strength of schedule for those G5 challengers.

Not a bad idea, but it doesn't feasibly fit into the CFB scheduling model. If G5's want to get aggressive, they need to keep scheduling P5 teams as "away only" paycheck games. Houston--for example--with Oklahoma and Louisville on the schedule last year. Boise State has been shooting for this for the past decade. They need these SOS benchmarks regularly. They can't schedule FCS schools or non-conference G5 games. They need ALL P5 OOC games (as much as possible).

If they really want to be considered "equal"--as I hear all of you small school guys around clambering for--than they need to schedule UP...way UP. No excuses for beating 1 P5 school and then running the table against your weaker G5 counterparts and expecting a spot at the table (looking at you Western Michigan/Marshall/etc.)

MM,

In my opinion, that list should be retooled to remove games for teams that are currently in the P5 (Utah and TCU) and add games for teams that are current in the G5 (Cincy). That would very quickly change the composition of your list.

That basically leaves you with a "Meh" win over Arizona, a "Good for you, but hardly the best FL St team we've ever seen" win, and then the legendary Boise win over Adrian Peterson's 2006 OU team that will be replayed forever.