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Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
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Hood-rich Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-18-2017 08:17 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 07:47 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 07:44 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 05:45 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-17-2017 03:31 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Have a *****, use the men's restroom and locker room, end of discussion.

Thats exactly how the VAST majority of people in America see this. Somehow this tiny segment of the population that "made a choice" to cause a problem now gets to force its will on the majority. This is the new America and most of us don't like where we are going.

Are we really back to the "LGBT is a choice" line of thinking again?

I don't know John.... I mean after 20 years of "fixed at birth" all of the sudden your side is pushing "fluid" so why don't you guys make up your mind before you move forward with wrecking society ok?

Come on...apply some common sense at least.
He did. What's your excuse?

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07-18-2017 05:07 PM
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Hood-rich Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-18-2017 11:20 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 07:44 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 05:45 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-17-2017 03:31 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Have a *****, use the men's restroom and locker room, end of discussion.

Thats exactly how the VAST majority of people in America see this. Somehow this tiny segment of the population that "made a choice" to cause a problem now gets to force its will on the majority. This is the new America and most of us don't like where we are going.

Are we really back to the "LGBT is a choice" line of thinking again?

Yes, a man dressing up or identifying as a woman is a choice. If you fully transition, do the surgery take the drugs then you can use the woman's room or locker room. If you ding dong is still attached you use the men's room end of story. Really simple.
transition should be against the law. they need to be locked up in the loony bin.

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07-18-2017 05:10 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-18-2017 05:10 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:20 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 07:44 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 05:45 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(07-17-2017 03:31 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Have a *****, use the men's restroom and locker room, end of discussion.

Thats exactly how the VAST majority of people in America see this. Somehow this tiny segment of the population that "made a choice" to cause a problem now gets to force its will on the majority. This is the new America and most of us don't like where we are going.

Are we really back to the "LGBT is a choice" line of thinking again?

Yes, a man dressing up or identifying as a woman is a choice. If you fully transition, do the surgery take the drugs then you can use the woman's room or locker room. If you ding dong is still attached you use the men's room end of story. Really simple.
transition should be against the law. they need to be locked up in the loony bin.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Yea, we should let Hood-Rich manage all the medical procedures and ethics for the country.

Where did you go to Medical School?
07-18-2017 05:23 PM
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Hood-rich Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-18-2017 05:23 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 05:10 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:20 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 07:44 AM)john01992 Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 05:45 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Thats exactly how the VAST majority of people in America see this. Somehow this tiny segment of the population that "made a choice" to cause a problem now gets to force its will on the majority. This is the new America and most of us don't like where we are going.

Are we really back to the "LGBT is a choice" line of thinking again?

Yes, a man dressing up or identifying as a woman is a choice. If you fully transition, do the surgery take the drugs then you can use the woman's room or locker room. If you ding dong is still attached you use the men's room end of story. Really simple.
transition should be against the law. they need to be locked up in the loony bin.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Yea, we should let Hood-Rich manage all the medical procedures and ethics for the country.

Where did you go to Medical School?
lucky you.

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07-18-2017 05:37 PM
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Hambone10 Online
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Post: #95
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-18-2017 04:54 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Here's the REAL question, Tom....

Can you show me a bathroom bill from a Democratically controlled state that is better (in your opinion) than what I, Bull or Owl have suggested?

Here's my view.

1) Someone's right to be 'comfortable' does not and should never interfere with the access to commerce and education by a minority
2) There are no need for any bathroom bill, other than one that mandates access for those matching their gender either at birth, as transitioned
to, or those in the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. This access should be EQUAL in every way to that of those who were born a certain gender.
3) Every single bathroom bill proposed has mandated that some post op men use the women's room (or post of women use the mens room). Every single, last one of them. These bills are all lies. So long as the other side is being 100% disingenuous regarding the content of their bills, there's no point in debating it.
4) Virtually every one of these bills also removes employment and/or public accoomodations access for LGBT persons. That is what these bills are about.
5) Every debate on this issue centers around the haters trying to scapegoat and punish Trans people for crimes they are not committing. None of these bills do anything to help even mitigate the issue of pervitude in restrooms/changing rooms. Not one single bill. Because all of them mandate some men in womens rooms. So business owners and the state will get sued if they question any man in a ladies room if they guess wrong and the man is simply a post op F to M complying with the law. After a few lawsuits, business owners and the state will simply stop questioning anyone. And God forbid any person complying with the law is assaulted or murdered. The killer/assaulter will probably get no jail time, but it will result in massive boycotts of that municipality.

And the haters in the GOP know this. They don't care. They're just looking to hate.

---

Under no circumstances should any post op or transitioning (under the care of medical doctor) Trans person ever have to have any disminishment of their full and equal participation in society. Having a 'question mark' restroom for Trans kids is never acceptable because it opens the kids to abuse. Banning Trans kids from MALE ALPHA TEAM sports is also unacceptable. Making Trans people with 200 years for some sort of refurbishment of a building to have access is also unacceptable.

Because there IS a solution that works right now....simply allow Trans persons to use the facility consistent with that which they present after surgery or during the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. No need to spend so much as one dime. Just treat people fairly.

And you're very obviously just looking to hate back.

I'm wondering why you gave this long response, but didn't answer my very simple question.

You say you don't need a bathroom bill 'other than this one', but you haven't yet shown me where any Democrat controlled state or Democrat representative in a Republican controlled state has presented such a bill. If Democrats were themselves interested in anything other than engaging in the politics of hate, you'd be able to show me such a simple bill....

You use the bathroom of your gender at birth, or as amended (or not) under the care of a physician... pretty much as I suggested. 19 words.

OF COURSE 'the other side' gives you a bill you don't favor.... You're not their constituents. If I had a choice between the two bills, I'd choose the one I articulated which is pretty close to yours... but since I'm not really impacted by it, it doesn't fall very high on my list of priorities.... so I'm certainly not going to favor a 'high tax' democrat over a 'low tax' Republican simply because of the bathroom bill.

and while I generally agree with the bathroom portion of your proposal, you go much further suggesting that the 'family' or 'single use' option somehow demeans people.... and then you stretch it to include sports.

First of all, I don't think girls are generally prohibited from competing as males anymore... it's the opposite... where men are generally prohibited from competing as females... and for very good reasons of the same sort of 'fairness' that you claim to want for trans persons.

As I said, you refuse to give equal weighting to both groups. You support the rights of perhaps a few hundred thousand? I have no idea... trans females to compete as women despite their very obvious advantages over the rights of 100+mm women.

Some family in Canada recently declined to have gender at all on their birth certificate and they had a whole movement supporting them... in fact I think it was actually CALLED a movement (by the supporters)... way to make your child a target so that you can feel better about yourselves... but those people want to violate your proposed (and My and I believe Owl's) agreed bill.

They're engaging in the same 'hate' you're blaming Republicans for.



Let me put it in a different context....
Let's say that geneticists found a way to transition people among their races... that black people could become white and vice versa... and someone either by choice or by genetics (lots of people with mixed race genes) could decide to 'identify' as the other race....... and perhaps even transition to it...

Would you think it fair to eliminate things like scholarships specifically targeted for minorities or hiring preferences or references to slavery and people somehow having been oppressed since now the people representing that race may have actually been the oppressors themselves? Serious question. If you want to go to a completely raceless, genderless society, where everyone competes solely on merit for anything and everything, I suppose we can talk about that... but something tells me you're not going to want to do that.

Asked differently, what if I claimed to be a pre-op male to female trans-gendered lesbian... meaning for all intents and purposes a man... and found a doctor willing to support my gender and sexual identity... should I be allowed to compete against women in athletics or put 'female' on a job application or STEM scholarship that favored women?

Or do we need to have rules?
(This post was last modified: 07-19-2017 10:57 AM by Hambone10.)
07-19-2017 10:46 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-19-2017 10:46 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 04:54 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Here's the REAL question, Tom....

Can you show me a bathroom bill from a Democratically controlled state that is better (in your opinion) than what I, Bull or Owl have suggested?

Here's my view.

1) Someone's right to be 'comfortable' does not and should never interfere with the access to commerce and education by a minority
2) There are no need for any bathroom bill, other than one that mandates access for those matching their gender either at birth, as transitioned
to, or those in the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. This access should be EQUAL in every way to that of those who were born a certain gender.
3) Every single bathroom bill proposed has mandated that some post op men use the women's room (or post of women use the mens room). Every single, last one of them. These bills are all lies. So long as the other side is being 100% disingenuous regarding the content of their bills, there's no point in debating it.
4) Virtually every one of these bills also removes employment and/or public accoomodations access for LGBT persons. That is what these bills are about.
5) Every debate on this issue centers around the haters trying to scapegoat and punish Trans people for crimes they are not committing. None of these bills do anything to help even mitigate the issue of pervitude in restrooms/changing rooms. Not one single bill. Because all of them mandate some men in womens rooms. So business owners and the state will get sued if they question any man in a ladies room if they guess wrong and the man is simply a post op F to M complying with the law. After a few lawsuits, business owners and the state will simply stop questioning anyone. And God forbid any person complying with the law is assaulted or murdered. The killer/assaulter will probably get no jail time, but it will result in massive boycotts of that municipality.

And the haters in the GOP know this. They don't care. They're just looking to hate.

---

Under no circumstances should any post op or transitioning (under the care of medical doctor) Trans person ever have to have any disminishment of their full and equal participation in society. Having a 'question mark' restroom for Trans kids is never acceptable because it opens the kids to abuse. Banning Trans kids from MALE ALPHA TEAM sports is also unacceptable. Making Trans people with 200 years for some sort of refurbishment of a building to have access is also unacceptable.

Because there IS a solution that works right now....simply allow Trans persons to use the facility consistent with that which they present after surgery or during the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. No need to spend so much as one dime. Just treat people fairly.

And you're very obviously just looking to hate back.

I'm wondering why you gave this long response, but didn't answer my very simple question.

You say you don't need a bathroom bill 'other than this one', but you haven't yet shown me where any Democrat controlled state or Democrat representative in a Republican controlled state has presented such a bill. If Democrats were themselves interested in anything other than engaging in the politics of hate, you'd be able to show me such a simple bill....

You use the bathroom of your gender at birth, or as amended (or not) under the care of a physician... pretty much as I suggested. 19 words.

OF COURSE 'the other side' gives you a bill you don't favor.... You're not their constituents. If I had a choice between the two bills, I'd choose the one I articulated which is pretty close to yours... but since I'm not really impacted by it, it doesn't fall very high on my list of priorities.... so I'm certainly not going to favor a 'high tax' democrat over a 'low tax' Republican simply because of the bathroom bill.

and while I generally agree with the bathroom portion of your proposal, you go much further suggesting that the 'family' or 'single use' option somehow demeans people.... and then you stretch it to include sports.

First of all, I don't think girls are generally prohibited from competing as males anymore... it's the opposite... where men are generally prohibited from competing as females... and for very good reasons of the same sort of 'fairness' that you claim to want for trans persons.

As I said, you refuse to give equal weighting to both groups. You support the rights of perhaps a few hundred thousand? I have no idea... trans females to compete as women despite their very obvious advantages over the rights of 100+mm women.

Some family in Canada recently declined to have gender at all on their birth certificate and they had a whole movement supporting them... in fact I think it was actually CALLED a movement (by the supporters)... way to make your child a target so that you can feel better about yourselves... but those people want to violate your proposed (and My and I believe Owl's) agreed bill.

They're engaging in the same 'hate' you're blaming Republicans for.



Let me put it in a different context....
Let's say that geneticists found a way to transition people among their races... that black people could become white and vice versa... and someone either by choice or by genetics (lots of people with mixed race genes) could decide to 'identify' as the other race....... and perhaps even transition to it...

Would you think it fair to eliminate things like scholarships specifically targeted for minorities or hiring preferences or references to slavery and people somehow having been oppressed since now the people representing that race may have actually been the oppressors themselves? Serious question. If you want to go to a completely raceless, genderless society, where everyone competes solely on merit for anything and everything, I suppose we can talk about that... but something tells me you're not going to want to do that.

Asked differently, what if I claimed to be a pre-op male to female trans-gendered lesbian... meaning for all intents and purposes a man... and found a doctor willing to support my gender and sexual identity... should I be allowed to compete against women in athletics or put 'female' on a job application or STEM scholarship that favored women?

Or do we need to have rules?

You will find that it is not particularly easy to get approval for transition. And there are serious rules about the pre-surgery requirements.

Currently, the GOP supports hate against LGBT persons. But do you really want the precedent set that 50 percent plus one gets to make it functionally impossible for minorities to function in society?

I get it, you don't care. But know that your not caring is causing our community problems. Don't whine when we, correctly, do everything we can to link these bills to things you MIGHT care about. Like sports, business, etc.
07-19-2017 12:22 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #97
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-18-2017 04:54 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Here's my view.
1) Someone's right to be 'comfortable' does not and should never interfere with the access to commerce and education by a minority

But bathroom bills don't go there. They address the right of 1% to be comfortable with the right of 99% to be comfortable. They resolve this in favor of the 99%, which is entirely reasonable. Nobody is denied access to commerce or education or any other form of participation in society. There is always one rest room they can use, and wherever there is one type, there must surely be the other. Trying to equate a bathroom bill with depriving any right is an absurdity.

Quote:2) There are no need for any bathroom bill, other than one that mandates access for those matching their gender either at birth, as transitioned
to, or those in the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. This access should be EQUAL in every way to that of those who were born a certain gender.

I don't disagree here, and this is where I have a problem with those bathroom bills based on gender at birth. Base it on what they are now.

Quote:
3) Every single bathroom bill proposed has mandated that some post op men use the women's room (or post of women use the mens room). Every single, last one of them. These bills are all lies. So long as the other side is being 100% disingenuous regarding the content of their bills, there's no point in debating it.

Basing it on what they are now, instead of how they were born, resolves this issue.

Quote:4) Virtually every one of these bills also removes employment and/or public accoomodations access for LGBT persons. That is what these bills are about.

I oppose any and all such provisions. They have no place being tagged onto a bathroom bill, which does address a legitimate issue.

Quote:5) Every debate on this issue centers around the haters trying to scapegoat and punish Trans people for crimes they are not committing. None of these bills do anything to help even mitigate the issue of pervitude in restrooms/changing rooms. Not one single bill. Because all of them mandate some men in womens rooms. So business owners and the state will get sued if they question any man in a ladies room if they guess wrong and the man is simply a post op F to M complying with the law. After a few lawsuits, business owners and the state will simply stop questioning anyone. And God forbid any person complying with the law is assaulted or murdered. The killer/assaulter will probably get no jail time, but it will result in massive boycotts of that municipality.

Spare the hyperbole.

Quote:Under no circumstances should any post op or transitioning (under the care of medical doctor) Trans person ever have to have any disminishment of their full and equal participation in society. Having a 'question mark' restroom for Trans kids is never acceptable because it opens the kids to abuse. Banning Trans kids from MALE ALPHA TEAM sports is also unacceptable. Making Trans people with 200 years for some sort of refurbishment of a building to have access is also unacceptable.

Letting a M to F participate in athletics as a girl is a patently absurd physical mismatch. The same probably applies to a F to M who has been taking substantial male hormones. Have one league for girls who were born girls and have always been girls, and an open league for everyone else--with the proviso that girls can participate in the open league if they want and can be competitive physically.

Quote:Because there IS a solution that works right now....simply allow Trans persons to use the facility consistent with that which they present after surgery or during the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. No need to spend so much as one dime. Just treat people fairly.

Don't have a major problem with this. I'm somewhat concerned about the during transition part. I'm definitely more comfortable with the idea that you go to the room consistent with whatever physical equipment you currently possess. I think that pretty well balances the equities between the two groups. Again this is nothing but a comfort issue either way. Nobody is ever deprived of the right to pee or poo. They are just asked to be considerate of the concerns of others in determining where they do so.

Again, your whole position on this issue is based on the assumption that only one group's rights or concerns matter. Both groups matter, and any reasonable solution has to consider both. You have never done that.
07-19-2017 08:52 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-19-2017 12:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 10:46 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Asked differently, what if I claimed to be a pre-op male to female trans-gendered lesbian... meaning for all intents and purposes a man... and found a doctor willing to support my gender and sexual identity... should I be allowed to compete against women in athletics or put 'female' on a job application or STEM scholarship that favored women?

Or do we need to have rules?

You will find that it is not particularly easy to get approval for transition. And there are serious rules about the pre-surgery requirements.

That is not an answer tom, that is dodging...
07-20-2017 09:22 AM
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LeFlâneur Offline
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Post: #99
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
In England, do they have Loo Bills? Maybe they ban fags in loos.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2017 11:59 AM by LeFlâneur.)
07-20-2017 11:58 AM
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Hambone10 Online
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Post: #100
RE: Bathroom Bills - Finally an example of a problem.
(07-20-2017 09:22 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 12:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 10:46 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Asked differently, what if I claimed to be a pre-op male to female trans-gendered lesbian... meaning for all intents and purposes a man... and found a doctor willing to support my gender and sexual identity... should I be allowed to compete against women in athletics or put 'female' on a job application or STEM scholarship that favored women?

Or do we need to have rules?

You will find that it is not particularly easy to get approval for transition. And there are serious rules about the pre-surgery requirements.

That is not an answer tom, that is dodging...

exactly.... especially in that I have repeatedly mentioned this as a reason I disagree with the 'equipment' position.

but it DOES allow him to then follow his comment up by pigeon-holing everyone into one group and calling them bigots, just as I said he would... line 2 post 85
07-20-2017 12:27 PM
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