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Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-14-2017 12:51 AM)ChooChoo Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 05:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  "That leaves Georgia Southern and App St in the Sunbelt and WKU, MTSU, Marshall, and ODU in C-USA. The SBC schools have storied FCS pasts but so does Marshall. I'd say the value of those 4 trumps the value of the SBCs pair."[/b]
Well yeah, I suppose 4 is better than 2 but that's an unfair premise.

This is key: it tacitly switches from the relevant comparison, average value per school, to "total value", where having 14 gives CUSA a clear advantage in having greater total value, even if it has equal or worse value per school and takes the extra hit in value from being oversized.
07-14-2017 05:28 AM
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Georgia_Power_Company Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-13-2017 09:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(07-13-2017 07:36 PM)panama Wrote:  
(07-13-2017 07:31 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 09:42 PM)panama Wrote:  
(07-12-2017 05:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Does anyone have solid numbers for what C-USA schools are bringing in each year versus what the Sunbelt does?

There seems to be some conception from Sunbelt folks that somehow the Sunbelt as currently configured is better than C-USA. It's my opinion that while C-USA is oversized and would be better off slit in two with each side raiding the Sunbelt for a few additional members they have superior programs.

All 4 Texas C-USA schools have better programs than Texas St.
I would argue that ULL and Arkansas St are on par with LA Tech but LA Twch seems to think otherwise since they avoided them during their stint in the WAC.
ULM is one of the poorest funded FBS schools in the nation
On the Gulf Coast USM trumps USA for longevity and tradition
While UAB plays in an old off campus stadium they are in a much more attractive market than Troy
The Charlotte and Georgia St programs are about equivalent as start ups in big markets--one has a dinky but brand new stadium the other a retrofitted baseball field
Coastal and the F_U twins are somewhat similar but the F_Us have a big head start on the Chanticleers
That leaves Georgia Southern and App St in the Sunbelt and WKU, MTSU, Marshall, and ODU in C-USA. The SBC schools have storied FCS pasts but so does Marshall. I'd say the value of those 4 trumps the value of the SBCs pair


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Of course. When confronted with cold hard facts responding with a meme when you can't refute it makes perfect sense.
Silly season post in silly season thread? Which part of your post was not conjecture or opinion? As for our retrofitted baseball field...it's a bit more than that...

I thought I gave a pretty objective program by program comparison of the two leagues. I'm a Big Ten/MAC Midwesterner so it's not like I have a vested interest in C-USA. For the record, I like what Georgia St is doing with Turner and have been following your construction thread. I was merely pointing out that what Charlotte has is brand new but has a tiny capacity while Georgia St is remodeling an existing facility built for the 1996 Olympics. I know you're proud of the Sunbelt because it's your league but C-USA has programs with stronger histories and a presence in more big markets than the SBC. The leagues would never agree to this because it would involve tweaking too many schedules and risking too much pride but I'd love to see a regular season challenge between the two leagues.

Conferences are judged by the top programs not the bottom. No one is claiming the Big 10 is great based on Illinois or Purdue these days.

Arguably CUSA's top 5 programs currently are: WKU, Middle Tenn, LTU, Marshall & So Miss

The Sun Belt's top 5 programs currently are: Ark St, App St, Troy, Louisiana & Georgia Southern

If you look at these programs objectively I think you will find that the top of each league is already pretty equal. So you combine that with the fact that CUSA has more bottom dwellers than the Sun Belt, makes less revenue per school and the Sun Belt is tightening it's footprint after this season that is why many in the Sun Belt like our conference better than CUSA. Many of the Sun Belt schools are new to FBS and have much higher ceilings than our CUSA counterparts as well. At this point it would be harder for CUSA to raid the Sun Belt than for the reverse to happen and that alone tells you all you need to know.
07-14-2017 08:22 AM
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chrisattsu Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-12-2017 05:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Does anyone have solid numbers for what C-USA schools are bringing in each year versus what the Sunbelt does?

There seems to be some conception from Sunbelt folks that somehow the Sunbelt as currently configured is better than C-USA. It's my opinion that while C-USA is oversized and would be better off slit in two with each side raiding the Sunbelt for a few additional members they have superior programs.

All 4 Texas C-USA schools have better programs than Texas St.
I would argue that ULL and Arkansas St are on par with LA Tech but LA Twch seems to think otherwise since they avoided them during their stint in the WAC.
ULM is one of the poorest funded FBS schools in the nation
On the Gulf Coast USM trumps USA for longevity and tradition
While UAB plays in an old off campus stadium they are in a much more attractive market than Troy
The Charlotte and Georgia St programs are about equivalent as start ups in big markets--one has a dinky but brand new stadium the other a retrofitted baseball field
Coastal and the F_U twins are somewhat similar but the F_Us have a big head start on the Chanticleers
That leaves Georgia Southern and App St in the Sunbelt and WKU, MTSU, Marshall, and ODU in C-USA. The SBC schools have storied FCS pasts but so does Marshall. I'd say the value of those 4 trumps the value of the SBCs pair

It is very easy to have a better football program, when Texas State was voted the WORST program in the country for 2016. We were bowl eligible in 2013 and 2014, but we were not selected. We had coaching staff and players give up on each other in 2015 and as a regime/culture change in 2016. We will bounce back.

Despite the the terrible football, we led the standings for the 2016-2017 Bubas Cup (best overall athletic department in the Sun Belt) until South Alabama won the baseball tourney and put them .5 point ahead of us.
07-14-2017 10:26 AM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-13-2017 09:10 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(07-13-2017 02:40 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(07-13-2017 01:42 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Chicago St is on a contract with the WAC, and it likely won't be renewed.

No idea if Pan American was on a contract with Sun Belt (is that what you were saying?), but I don't think UTRGV is on a contract with the WAC currently. Could be wrong though ...

I meant UTPA being evicted/forced out of the Sun Belt back in 1999, I want to say? To the best of my knowledge, that is the only time in recent history that a full member of a D-1 conference was ejected/forced out (depending on how you view VCU/Va. Tech and the Metro, though I think legally that was the remaining Metro schools dissolving the conference and helping start CUSA).

UTPA was ejected from the Sun Belt for the following reason. UTPA was under NCAA investigation. The charges were serious but not enough to warrant the death penalty. However, UTPA elected to lobby for the NCAA to give their OWN program the death penalty, because they didn't want to pay their basketball coach the buy out he was entitled to. The NCAA didn't give UTPA the death penalty. The Sun Belt, rightly seeing this as yet another example of UTPA's non-support of their own program, gave UTPA a choice....leave now or be ejected at the next Conference meeting. UTPA chose to leave.

I would be surprised if Va Tech was really ejected from the Metro/CUSA. The A-10 offered them a bid, and didn't mess up their Big East football membership, which probably was at least a lateral move.

Which illustrates how significant the issues must be for a conference to take that kind of action against one of its full-sports members. St. Bonaventure didn't get booted from the A-10 after playing an ineligible player in 2003 and the team walkout that ensued. SMU didn't get booted from the SWC when they actually did get a death penalty. There have probably been behind-the-scenes nudging but action is extraordinarily rare.

Virginia Tech and VCU (and Dayton from the Great Midwest) weren't legally evicted. Their then-conference mates abandoned them to create CUSA. VT was a football thing; they (rightly) saw more value as Big East football member than a CUSA all-sports, gambling that they'd eventually get a full invite to the BE. It took them longer than they anticipated, but it panned out. Dayton did OK too. VCU took it in the shorts but they also ended up OK, even if by way of the scenic route.
07-14-2017 10:32 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
Sunbelt guys: if you were to objectively (I know it's tough not to overvalue your school) rank the Sunbelt athletic programs how would you rank them?
07-14-2017 09:28 PM
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arkstfan Online
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Post: #86
Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-14-2017 09:28 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Sunbelt guys: if you were to objectively (I know it's tough not to overvalue your school) rank the Sunbelt athletic programs how would you rank them?

Ranking comes down to what you value. Is football equal to hoops? Are sports other than football and basketball equal them? Does fan support play in?

I like the league but I have issues with how UALR and ULM are run.

UALR only fully funds scholarships in 4 out of 14 sports and we as a league pressured New Orleans and Denver to leave by declaring anyone without 15 conference sports had four years to add sports or leave, soon as they leave UALR drops tennis.

ULM's administration keeps athletics on a starvation diet and until the leadership gets serious about competing I consider the program a problem.
07-14-2017 10:30 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
Yeah, but UALR won the Sun Belt tourney in 2015-16 and went to March Madness that year. And for that matter, UTA did the same in 2016-17.

I'm sure the Sun Belt cares about baseball, to an extent. But just like the SEC, it's a nice to have but doesn't move the needle. The needle movers, as have been known for some time, are college football with a nice side helping of March Madness. That's it. Other sports/events, college world series, college frozen four, even college lacrosse and perhaps one day soccer, have fervent supporters but aren't needle movers and drivers of realignment on their own.


Sun Belt isn't kicking UALR or ULM out, and the NCAA isn't kicking ULM out of FBS. And if UALR manages to add a football team, the Sun Belt will give them a spot in the league.
07-17-2017 09:16 AM
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HoustonCajun Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-10-2017 09:52 PM)BalancedManSPE Wrote:  CUSA should go to 16 before going to the negotiating table. Without question. 14 teams has always been an odd number for CUSA.
Adding 2 more teams at this point will not take away any significant revenue... and if done creatively, CUSA can reduce travel and operate each division like mini-conferences.
16 has always been that mythical number in collegiate sports. CUSA can grab the bull by the horns and gain attention for being the first.
No doubt, Texas State and Georgia State should be in CUSA. If they add the Bobcats, their 5 team Texas group would get a lot of pub and may even anchor an improved TV deal. There are a lot of eyeballs in the Lone Star state, and a 5 team group can develop a culture for CUSA. Meanwhile, Georgia State is going to have one of the nicest stadiums in CUSA. They'd fill in that Southeastern corner nicely.
Does CUSA have a choice at this point? Go big or go home.

If it doesn't work out then they can make a clean split and have two very nice pieces. When the WAC16 split, it actually provided a decent springboard for both sides. Though that wouldn't be the goal to expand. If the Western group had Texas State, they may someday revive the SWC brand (at that point perhaps adding an Arkansas State and Missouri State). The Eastern CUSA could answer by adding JMU and Coastal.

[Image: lySkieS.png]

IMO, the solution is not to expand CUSA, but divide CUSA and the SBC into Eastern and Western based all sports conferences.

CUSA

Marshall
MT
WKU
ODU
UAB
Charlotte
App State
GA State
GA Southern
CCU
FAU
FIU

SBC

Ark State
LA Tech
N. Texas
Louisiana
USM
USA
Troy
Rice
Texas State
UTSA
UTEP
NMSU
07-17-2017 10:05 AM
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AppManDG Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-13-2017 08:47 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(07-11-2017 08:10 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(07-11-2017 06:20 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(07-11-2017 02:22 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Each G5 conference gets $10 million from the CFP regardless of the amount of teams.
Strictly speaking, it's $1m/school for up to 10 FB schools ... but now that Coastal Carolina has brought the SBC up to 10 FB schools, it's $10m all around.

Quote: Going to 16 makes no sense, but for the sake of this discussion Georgia State and Texas State would be great additions. Two large schools in large markets and a lot of upside with both schools. Adding Texas State would mean that CUSA was in every large market in Texas. That can't be a bad thing.

So, to summarize: silly premise, not the silliest of picks given the silly premise.

(07-10-2017 10:53 PM)BalancedManSPE Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 10:47 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  Are you high? Has the ATF raided your supply?

Status quo isn't working so well.

You either expand or contract and I think contraction will be a lot harder than expansion.
The flaw in the logic here is that it treats the reason that the status quo is not "working so well" as something unique about 14, instead of being too large with greater travel costs for no substantial benefit. Expanding certainly is easier than contraction, the problem is that expansion with any available pair of schools does not fix the problems of the current alignment ... it just makes them worse.

Coastal Carolina will bring the Sun Belt to 12 teams this season. Once NMSU and Idaho are gone, the conference goes to ten schools or an even $1 million per school.

It is a silly premise. Going to 16 makes no sense for CUSA and for a school leaving the Sun Belt there is a $2 million exit fee and joining CUSA will cost a $2 million entry fee. It makes no sense for this to happen. It is a fantasy scenario.

Agreed!!!!! Thank heaven, I'm not the only one who thinks these sixteen team conferences are dumb!!!! Yay!! Please forward this to the SEC and the Big Ten as well please. (I'm being dead serious!!!)
16 team conferences might be silly, but 18 teams divided into 9 team divisions is perfect. 4 home & 4 away conf games and 4 nonconf opponents plus you get a true divisional champion.

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07-17-2017 10:47 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Will CUSA expand within the next 3 years? (adding Texas State and Georgia State)
(07-17-2017 10:05 AM)HoustonCajun Wrote:  IMO, the solution is not to expand CUSA, but divide CUSA and the SBC into Eastern and Western based all sports conferences.

CUSA

Marshall
MT
WKU
ODU
UAB
Charlotte
App State
GA State
GA Southern
CCU
FAU
FIU

SBC

Ark State
LA Tech
N. Texas
Louisiana
USM
USA
Troy
Rice
Texas State
UTSA
UTEP
NMSU

Maybe switch the names. In the unlikely event that such an exchange of schools is going to happen, C-USA will probably want to keep their Texas schools.

Also, nobody will want NMSU when they already have UTEP.

C-USA
East: Louisiana Tech, Southern Miss, Troy, UAB, ULL, ULM
West: Arkansas State, North Texas, Rice, Texas State, UTEP, UTSA

Sun Belt
North: Appalachian State, Charlotte, Marshall, MTSU, ODU, WKU
South: Coastal Carolina, FAU, FIU, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, South Alabama
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2017 12:02 PM by Nerdlinger.)
07-17-2017 11:53 AM
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