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Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
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OrangeDude Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 10:25 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Everything I've read says that there was a serious attempt by Kentucky politicians to get Louisville in the spot that ultimately went to West Virginia.

That means that probably at least half of the remaining eight teams (five Big 8 teams, and three SWC teams) thought that Louisville would've been a worthy add to pair with TCU.


So why didn't they just add both?!

To be sure, while I personally believe that the Big 12 should have added Louisville when it had the chance, the fact of the matter is that pretty much every single conference will add only the bare minimum of schools where there is a consensus agreement for expansion. That is, there has never been a situation where "Why don't we just add both?"-type thinking has prevailed. Pretty much every conference would rather add ONLY the school where there is a consensus and then wait on the borderline candidates even a solid candidate that needs another school to come along to provide for even numbers. This ranges from the Big 12 only adding WVU and not include Louisville to the recent decision of the MVC to only add Valpo and not include Murray State. University presidents simply don't think, "Well, we like Murray State almost as much as Valpo, so let's add both even though we don't have a 12th school that we like."

So true. In hindsight, the ACC could have in 2003 simply added 5 schools to solve the VT conundrum by taking Miami, VT, BC, SU, and Pitt. ND would have agreed to the 7 year partial with full membership later and gotten their ducks in a row to work out who would be #16 by that time.

But while there was general consensus for expansion to 12 (7-2 with both Duke and UNC against), expansion beyond 12 at that time was likely never to pass. Although there was briefly discussion of expansion to 13 for about a week or so in mid-June 2003.

Cheers,
Neil
07-10-2017 02:15 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 01:27 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 01:15 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 01:10 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 10:25 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Everything I've read says that there was a serious attempt by Kentucky politicians to get Louisville in the spot that ultimately went to West Virginia.

That means that probably at least half of the remaining eight teams (five Big 8 teams, and three SWC teams) thought that Louisville would've been a worthy add to pair with TCU.


So why didn't they just add both?!

There was an attempt by one Senator from Louisville, and old friend of Senator David Boren, to get Louisville into the Big12.

However, the thing that every one seems to forget, is that the TV networks reportedly told the Big12 that Louisville added nothing for the networks. It seems that Louisville had great fan support locally ....however, outside of their immediate area they did not turn on any TV sets. Then the Big12 opted for West Virginia.

Apparently it's worked well for the ACC.

How do you know that ...did Louisville greatly enhance the ACC tv contract? I do not know if it did or not. I was just telling you why the Big12 passed on Louisville

MSNWolf is correct. Louisville and the ACC both are happy with the relationship. While Louisville may not have enhanced the current ACC contract they did do a good job of replacing Maryland. Also, Louisville provided some great ratings last season with Lamar Jacksons coming out party.

Take a look at the ratings for Louisville/Clemson and Louisville/FSU. Those are just a couple of examples but they were massive ratings. And it wasnt just because of who they played, but also because of Lamar Jackson and the high flying Louisville offense.
07-10-2017 02:15 PM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
now wait a minute
TV told B-12 needed 10 to keep contract,
TCU was in already
when it came down to Louv & WV
Louv wanted to wait a yr not to eat 20 m exit fee
WV said no promblem, we'll leave now & fought B-E tooth & nail to get out
07-10-2017 02:37 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 02:37 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  now wait a minute
TV told B-12 needed 10 to keep contract,
TCU was in already
when it came down to Louv & WV
Louv wanted to wait a yr not to eat 20 m exit fee
WV said no promblem, we'll leave now & fought B-E tooth & nail to get out

The way I understood it was they grabbed WVU and TCU and then began debating going to 12. Story was the votes were there to add Louisville but they didn't want to get stuck at 11 and couldn't agree on 12.

Which Frank would tell us is dysfunctional behavior... because he's right.

Sun Belt had several periods of 11 in hoops and while it sucked, it didn't suck as bad as just throwing in some random school to get to 12.
07-10-2017 04:08 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
The Big 12 has become "The Band of Misfits" with a golden opportunity that they are too blind to see. Add to California schools. and two Florida school and be in the three largest recruiting states in the nation. They could also add those four schools plus Cincy and BYU. That would place them in four time zones for TV and the best recruiting opportunities of any conference.
07-10-2017 04:55 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 08:28 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  If the Big 12 had added Louisville in 2011, in addition to West Virginia, TCU and - probably - Cincinnati, then the whole narrative about the Big 12 being on life support goes away. The league continues on with 12 teams and 12 very solid athletic programs. Unfortunately, Big 12 bosses didn't think Louisville was good enough, so they passed and only selected West Virginia (which is still on a monumental island).

The Big 12 will not be getting $35 million annually in its next contract if they continue to be the weakest link in the power conference chain. Bowlsby, Boren and others can proclaim how everything is great, but results, markets and program prestige matters. Having 20% of your conference composed of Kansas and Iowa State (programs with a combined three winning seasons in the past 10 years) doesn't help. Having Baylor, in its current state with negative national perception, doesn't help. Having Bob Stoops, one of the top college football head coaches, just retire, doesn't help. Having Texas continue to be down, doesn't help.

What exactly will the next Big 12 contract be buying-in to?

If I could figure out how to give people points on here I would give out a bunch for this comment.

If the Big 12 schools would have been in it for the long haul after the departures of A&M and Missouri then Cincinnati and Louisville would be in the Big 12 and it would be stable. With Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Cincy, and Louisville all having new homes lined up maybe an arrangement could have been made for everyone to move in 2012. At this point UConn, Rutgers, and USF could have played a season as indies or temporarily affiliated with the MAC or C-USA for football before Rutgers went to the Big Ten and UConn to the ACC. USF moves to C-USA. Big East football dies peacefully.
07-10-2017 05:00 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 08:44 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 07:56 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college...ve-forward

It would be interesting to see the list of schools that Bowlsby "could cry over" passing on.

Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Louisville & BYU?

I believe Pittsburgh & the B12 were in talks before A&M & Missouri left, would they still have left if Pitt & Syracuse were coming in? If so then still replace them with TCU & WV. Add Louisville & BYU for 14. Would ND find a B12 with those 14 schools more enticing? Cincinnati to the ACC to replace Maryland?

Its been written that the Big 12 was talking to Pitt and Pitt called up the ACC where they preferred to go and quickly got an offer.
07-10-2017 05:02 PM
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RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 10:25 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Everything I've read says that there was a serious attempt by Kentucky politicians to get Louisville in the spot that ultimately went to West Virginia.

That means that probably at least half of the remaining eight teams (five Big 8 teams, and three SWC teams) thought that Louisville would've been a worthy add to pair with TCU.


So why didn't they just add both?!

One factor that was mentioned was that they needed 45 conference games per their TV contracts and you can't do a balanced schedule with 11 teams and a 9 game conference schedule. If you go to 8, then you only have 44 conference.

They just didn't have a 12th team they were happy with.
07-10-2017 05:05 PM
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RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 04:08 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 02:37 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  now wait a minute
TV told B-12 needed 10 to keep contract,
TCU was in already
when it came down to Louv & WV
Louv wanted to wait a yr not to eat 20 m exit fee
WV said no promblem, we'll leave now & fought B-E tooth & nail to get out

The way I understood it was they grabbed WVU and TCU and then began debating going to 12. Story was the votes were there to add Louisville but they didn't want to get stuck at 11 and couldn't agree on 12.

Which Frank would tell us is dysfunctional behavior... because he's right.

Sun Belt had several periods of 11 in hoops and while it sucked, it didn't suck as bad as just throwing in some random school to get to 12.

No.
A&M left and TCU was added to replace them.
After TCU was added, then Missouri left. That was when they were considering WVU and UL.
07-10-2017 05:08 PM
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RE: Carlton: Big 12 has found its worst enemy
(07-10-2017 02:11 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 01:27 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 01:15 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 01:10 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  ...the thing that every one seems to forget, is that the TV networks reportedly told the Big12 that Louisville added nothing for the networks. It seems that Louisville had great fan support locally ....however, outside of their immediate area they did not turn on any TV sets. Then the Big12 opted for West Virginia.

Apparently it's worked well for the ACC.

How do you know that ...did Louisville greatly enhance the ACC tv contract? I do not know if it did or not. I was just telling you why the Big12 passed on Louisville

It's a matter of record that losing Maryland and replacing them with Louisville was a revenue-neutral move for the ACC. Does that mean that Louisville is worth the same as Maryland? Not necessarily. Remember, when the Big XII initially lost Nebraska and Colorado and responded by simply increasing the conference schedule from 8 games to 9, ESPN agreed to pay the same and Fox actually paid a little more (IIRC).

All that said, Louisville has been a valuable addition to ACC sports and I don't think anyone can argue that the Big XII made a tactical error in not inviting the Cardinals - along with the Mountaineers - when they had the chance.

I think a lot of presidents of Big 12 schools would disagree with you.
Would they really want the Baylor and Louisville problems at the same time? Probably not.
07-10-2017 05:09 PM
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