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Alternate History and Future College Sports Realignment Scenarios
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #181
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
A conference-hybrid on the scale of the original Big East will arguably never happen again, but I still think it could have succeeded with the eight non-football members it had at its conclusion (DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. Johns and Villanova), as well as twelve full members (Boston College, Cincinnati, UConn, ECU, Louisville, Miami, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, Virginia Tech, West Virginia).
09-09-2017 09:44 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #182
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Here's an alternate "Super" Big East of today wherein PSU and FSU joined early on rather than going to the Big Ten and ACC, respectively.

Big East
Football (North): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn
Football (South): Florida State, Miami, Temple (FB only), Villanova, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Non-football: Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's
09-13-2017 09:36 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #183
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-13-2017 09:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's an alternate "Super" Big East of today wherein PSU and FSU joined early on rather than going to the Big Ten and ACC, respectively.

Big East
Football (North): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn
Football (South): Florida State, Miami, Temple (FB only), Villanova, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Non-football: Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's

"Super" football conference and Villanova just don't sound right together.
Please try again.
09-13-2017 11:43 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #184
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-13-2017 11:43 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 09:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's an alternate "Super" Big East of today wherein PSU and FSU joined early on rather than going to the Big Ten and ACC, respectively.

Big East
Football (North): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn
Football (South): Florida State, Miami, Temple (FB only), Villanova, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Non-football: Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's

"Super" football conference and Villanova just don't sound right together.
Please try again.

"Super" is more for the size than the quality. As I recall, Villanova was doing pretty well in I-AA back when football was added to the Big East in our timeline.
09-13-2017 12:13 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #185
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-13-2017 12:13 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 11:43 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 09:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Here's an alternate "Super" Big East of today wherein PSU and FSU joined early on rather than going to the Big Ten and ACC, respectively.

Big East
Football (North): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn
Football (South): Florida State, Miami, Temple (FB only), Villanova, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Non-football: Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's

"Super" football conference and Villanova just don't sound right together.
Please try again.

"Super" is more for the size than the quality. As I recall, Villanova was doing pretty well in I-AA back when football was added to the Big East in our timeline.

If Villanova went I-A 25 years ago, they would easily be a power school in the ACC or B1G. They are not AAU but rank very high academically.
09-13-2017 12:20 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #186
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-13-2017 12:20 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  If Villanova went I-A 25 years ago, they would easily be a power school in the ACC or B1G. They are not AAU but rank very high academically.

They went from #1 Regional (East) in USNWR to #50 National University. That's...impressive.
09-13-2017 02:26 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #187
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-13-2017 02:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 12:20 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  If Villanova went I-A 25 years ago, they would easily be a power school in the ACC or B1G. They are not AAU but rank very high academically.

They went from #1 Regional (East) in USNWR to #50 National University. That's...impressive.

It actually is. A regional university offers a master's at the highest (maybe a couple doctoral programs, but usually none.) A national university offers doctoral degrees and most national universities have been doing so for a while. So for Villanova to jump in from essentially zero doctoral programs to several or more and still be in the top 50 universities in the nation is impressive.
09-13-2017 02:55 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #188
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Here's one:

In 1994, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska all announce they are joaiming the Pac 10 in 1996. With the Big 8 cut in half, Missouri joins the Big 10 as its 12th member.

The three remaining Big 8 schools have a decision to make: join the SWC, raid or join the WAC, or look eastward and add from the independent ranks. They ultimately join the SWC, but pull in Memphis and Louisville as their 11th and 12th members

North - Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Memphis, Louisvile
South - Baylor, Rice, Houston, Texas A&M, SMU, TCU

The Southwest Confernce changes its name to the Big 12 conference.

This puts a damper on the Metro-Great Midwest merger. With Houston, Memphis, and Louisville gone, the conference never split noses football. Cincinnati, Southern Miss, and Tulane continue to compete as independents. East Carolina (1997) and Army (1998) also prolong their independence.

Meanwhile, the WAC settles down at 12 members:

Pacific - SDSU, SJSU, Fresno State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada
Mountain - BYU, Colorado State, Air Force, Wyoming, New Mexico, UTEP

Tulsa replaces Nevada in the Big West. Arkansas State eventually tags along. Louisiana Tech joins the Big West in 2001 instead of the WAC.

The fun begins in 2004 as the ACC takes three from the Big East, who then takes Louisville (Big 12), Cincinnati (C-USA/Ind.), and South Florida (C-USA/Ind.). The Big 12 takes BYU and Colorado State. C-USA takes Tulsa and Louisiana Tech. The WAC takes Boise State, Utah State, and Idaho.

Texas A&M and West Virginia join the SEC in 2012. The Big East adds TCU. The Big 12 add Tulane and UTEP. The WAC adds New Mexico State.

Pittsburgh and Syracuse leave for the ACC in 2013, and the Big East replaces them with Memphis and Houston.

Maryland and Rutgers join the Big Ten in 2014. The ACC adds Louisville and the Big East adds Central Florida.
09-25-2017 10:57 PM
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #189
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-25-2017 10:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Here's one:

In 1994, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska all announce they are joaiming the Pac 10 in 1996. With the Big 8 cut in half, Missouri joins the Big 10 as its 12th member.

The three remaining Big 8 schools have a decision to make: join the SWC, raid or join the WAC, or look eastward and add from the independent ranks. They ultimately join the SWC, but pull in Memphis and Louisville as their 11th and 12th members

North - Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Memphis, Louisvile
South - Baylor, Rice, Houston, Texas A&M, SMU, TCU

The Southwest Confernce changes its name to the Big 12 conference.

This puts a damper on the Metro-Great Midwest merger. With Houston, Memphis, and Louisville gone, the conference never split noses football. Cincinnati, Southern Miss, and Tulane continue to compete as independents. East Carolina (1997) and Army (1998) also prolong their independence.

Meanwhile, the WAC settles down at 12 members:

Pacific - SDSU, SJSU, Fresno State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada
Mountain - BYU, Colorado State, Air Force, Wyoming, New Mexico, UTEP

Tulsa replaces Nevada in the Big West. Arkansas State eventually tags along. Louisiana Tech joins the Big West in 2001 instead of the WAC.

The fun begins in 2004 as the ACC takes three from the Big East, who then takes Louisville (Big 12), Cincinnati (C-USA/Ind.), and South Florida (C-USA/Ind.). The Big 12 takes BYU and Colorado State. C-USA takes Tulsa and Louisiana Tech. The WAC takes Boise State, Utah State, and Idaho.

Texas A&M and West Virginia join the SEC in 2012. The Big East adds TCU. The Big 12 add Tulane and UTEP. The WAC adds New Mexico State.

Pittsburgh and Syracuse leave for the ACC in 2013, and the Big East replaces them with Memphis and Houston.

Maryland and Rutgers join the Big Ten in 2014. The ACC adds Louisville and the Big East adds Central Florida.

so what's the end result? No Mountain West (WAC never splits), No American Athletic (Big East never splits), Idaho doesn't drop to FCS? Is the Big East still a major conference? Where are Creighton, Butler and Notre Dame?
09-26-2017 08:48 AM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #190
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-26-2017 08:48 AM)megadrone Wrote:  
(09-25-2017 10:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Here's one:

In 1994, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska all announce they are joaiming the Pac 10 in 1996. With the Big 8 cut in half, Missouri joins the Big 10 as its 12th member.

The three remaining Big 8 schools have a decision to make: join the SWC, raid or join the WAC, or look eastward and add from the independent ranks. They ultimately join the SWC, but pull in Memphis and Louisville as their 11th and 12th members

North - Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Memphis, Louisvile
South - Baylor, Rice, Houston, Texas A&M, SMU, TCU

The Southwest Confernce changes its name to the Big 12 conference.

This puts a damper on the Metro-Great Midwest merger. With Houston, Memphis, and Louisville gone, the conference never split noses football. Cincinnati, Southern Miss, and Tulane continue to compete as independents. East Carolina (1997) and Army (1998) also prolong their independence.

Meanwhile, the WAC settles down at 12 members:

Pacific - SDSU, SJSU, Fresno State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada
Mountain - BYU, Colorado State, Air Force, Wyoming, New Mexico, UTEP

Tulsa replaces Nevada in the Big West. Arkansas State eventually tags along. Louisiana Tech joins the Big West in 2001 instead of the WAC.

The fun begins in 2004 as the ACC takes three from the Big East, who then takes Louisville (Big 12), Cincinnati (C-USA/Ind.), and South Florida (C-USA/Ind.). The Big 12 takes BYU and Colorado State. C-USA takes Tulsa and Louisiana Tech. The WAC takes Boise State, Utah State, and Idaho.

Texas A&M and West Virginia join the SEC in 2012. The Big East adds TCU. The Big 12 add Tulane and UTEP. The WAC adds New Mexico State.

Pittsburgh and Syracuse leave for the ACC in 2013, and the Big East replaces them with Memphis and Houston.

Maryland and Rutgers join the Big Ten in 2014. The ACC adds Louisville and the Big East adds Central Florida.

so what's the end result? No Mountain West (WAC never splits), No American Athletic (Big East never splits), Idaho doesn't drop to FCS? Is the Big East still a major conference? Where are Creighton, Butler and Notre Dame?

Yes, please spell out the conferences.
09-26-2017 09:24 AM
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Post: #191
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-25-2017 10:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Here's one:

In 1994, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Kansas, and Nebraska all announce they are joaiming the Pac 10 in 1996. With the Big 8 cut in half, Missouri joins the Big 10 as its 12th member.

The three remaining Big 8 schools have a decision to make: join the SWC, raid or join the WAC, or look eastward and add from the independent ranks. They ultimately join the SWC, but pull in Memphis and Louisville as their 11th and 12th members

North - Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Memphis, Louisvile
South - Baylor, Rice, Houston, Texas A&M, SMU, TCU

The Southwest Confernce changes its name to the Big 12 conference.

This puts a damper on the Metro-Great Midwest merger. With Houston, Memphis, and Louisville gone, the conference never split noses football. Cincinnati, Southern Miss, and Tulane continue to compete as independents. East Carolina (1997) and Army (1998) also prolong their independence.

Meanwhile, the WAC settles down at 12 members:

Pacific - SDSU, SJSU, Fresno State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada
Mountain - BYU, Colorado State, Air Force, Wyoming, New Mexico, UTEP

Tulsa replaces Nevada in the Big West. Arkansas State eventually tags along. Louisiana Tech joins the Big West in 2001 instead of the WAC.

The fun begins in 2004 as the ACC takes three from the Big East, who then takes Louisville (Big 12), Cincinnati (C-USA/Ind.), and South Florida (C-USA/Ind.). The Big 12 takes BYU and Colorado State. C-USA takes Tulsa and Louisiana Tech. The WAC takes Boise State, Utah State, and Idaho.

Texas A&M and West Virginia join the SEC in 2012. The Big East adds TCU. The Big 12 add Tulane and UTEP. The WAC adds New Mexico State.

Pittsburgh and Syracuse leave for the ACC in 2013, and the Big East replaces them with Memphis and Houston.

Maryland and Rutgers join the Big Ten in 2014. The ACC adds Louisville and the Big East adds Central Florida.

Charger--I doubt Texas A&M gets left behind in the SWC. If the choices are moving west or staying in a weakened leave I bet they go west, taking Utah's spot. That throws everything else a bit but I don't see them spending over a decade waiting on the SEC.

Another thought is if the Pac goes to 16 in the mid '90's, an idea way ahead of its time, does the same thing happen in the league's back east as a knee-jerk reaction?

Missouri, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, and Maryland to the Big 10?
6 Southern ACC Schools to the SEC?
Remaining Big East football schools fold into the ACC?
09-26-2017 05:17 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #192
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
I guess A&M and the SEC could have closed the deal sooner had the Pac 10 gone to 16 - if it happens in the 90s, Virginia Tech would have actually been available. That might have made enough of a difference for the ACC to hold their nose and add West Virginia at some point down the road, given Virginia Tech would no longer be covering that area for the ACC; more likely, it just changes the order of the ACC adding Pittsburgh and Syracuse.
09-26-2017 05:34 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #193
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-26-2017 09:24 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Yes, please spell out the conferences.
Pac 16
West - UCLA, USC, Stanford, California
South - Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, Colorado
East - Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska
North - Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State

Big 10
West - Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue
East - Indiana, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, Rutgers

SEC
West - Texas A&M, LSU, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Alabama, Auburn
East - Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, Kentucky, WVU

ACC
Atlantic - Florida State, Clemson, Louisville, Wake, Syracuse, NCSU, Boston College
Coastal - Miami (FL), Georgia Tech, Virginia, Duke, Pittsburgh, UNC, Virginia Tech
Non-football member: Notre Dame

Big East
Football - TCU, Houston, Memphis, Cincinnati, UConn, USF, Temple, UCF
Non Football - Villanova, DePaul, Marquette, St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Butler
Football only: Navy

Big 12
North - Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, BYU, Colorado State
South - Baylor, Rice, SMU, Tulane, UTEP, New Mexico

WAC
Pacific - Hawaii, San Diego State, San Jose State, Fresno State, Nevada, UNLV
Mountain - Boise State, Idaho, Utah State, Wyoming, Air Force, New Mexico State

Conference USA
West - North Texas, UTSA, Southern Miss, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, UAB
East - MTSU, WKU, Marshall, East Carolina, FIU, FAU
Notes: Army never joined as an affiliate member; C-USA did not sponsor football until 2005 (Southern Miss, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, UAB, Marshall, East Carolina, UCF, North Texas)

Sun Belt
West - Texas State, Arkansas State, Louisiana, ULM, South Alabama, Troy
East - ODU, App State, Charlotte, CCU, Georgia State, Georgia Southern
Non football: Little Rock, Texas-Arlington
Note: North Texas never joins the Sun Belt. FIU, FAU, WKU, and MTSU were former football-playing members of the Sun Belt

Mid-American
West - Northern Illinois, Ball State, Toledo, WMU, CMU, EMU
East - Miami-OH, Ohio, Akron, Kent State, Bowling Green, Buffalo

Independents: Army, Notre Dame, UMass (thanks Temple!)

Non-football conference notes:
Creighton and Wichita State are still members of the Missouri Valley and Xavier is a member of the Atlantic 10. This pushes Valparaiso and Loyola Chicago back to the Horizon, IUPUI back to the Summit, Northern Kentucky back to the Atlantic Sun, and Davidson back to the SoCon, which pushes Mercer back to the Atlantic Sun.
09-26-2017 06:52 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #194
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
I like your scenario, chargeradio, though I do agree with Muskie in that Texas A&M would have taken the spot in the Pac you gave to Utah. I guess that puts either KU or NU in with the Mountain schools.

Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, but what do you mean when you say "thanks Temple"? Does this refer to their backing out of the MAC right when UMass joined?
09-26-2017 07:28 PM
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Post: #195
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Charger--please don't take this as a criticism but I'd like to know your thought process behind moving TCU, Houston, Cincy, and Memphis out of the Big 12/SWC and into the Big East?

Your Big 12/SWC still had a lot of strength (IMHO, Cincy is in that alignment too and not A&M). I don't see the motivation, other than basketball, to leave Baylor, Texas Tech, Oklahoma St, Iowa St, and Kansas St behind. The Big East football schools you have there simply aren't attractive enough to join.
09-26-2017 07:53 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #196
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-26-2017 07:28 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, but what do you mean when you say "thanks Temple"? Does this refer to their backing out of the MAC right when UMass joined?
Yes.
09-27-2017 06:26 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #197
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-26-2017 07:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Charger--please don't take this as a criticism but I'd like to know your thought process behind moving TCU, Houston, Cincy, and Memphis out of the Big 12/SWC and into the Big East?

Your Big 12/SWC still had a lot of strength (IMHO, Cincy is in that alignment too and not A&M). I don't see the motivation, other than basketball, to leave Baylor, Texas Tech, Oklahoma St, Iowa St, and Kansas St behind. The Big East football schools you have there simply aren't attractive enough to join.
I'm presuming the Big East would have had a better deal than the Texas-saturated Big 12, especially if A&M was gone or on their way out. Most schools tend to move eastward in realignment, unless if they draw their students from the West (like Colorado). A lot of it may come down to timing of when West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, and Louisville announce their departures. Also remember that the BCS was in place during this time, so a Big East with 8 or 9 teams may be preferable to staying in the Big 12.

If it becomes clear that the Big East is done as a power conference, than replace TCU, Houston, and Memphis with Tulane, UAB, and East Carolina.

With TCU, Houston, and Memphis still in the Big 12, UTEP and New Mexico are still in the WAC (Tulane joins the Big East from C-USA). New Mexico State joins C-USA as part of the collapse of Big West football in 2005. Idaho would likely be stuck and face the same eventual fate that awaits them in 2018, although perhaps the Vandals latch on as an affiliate in the Sun Belt or newly I-A Conference USA.
09-27-2017 06:53 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #198
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(09-27-2017 06:26 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(09-26-2017 07:28 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, but what do you mean when you say "thanks Temple"? Does this refer to their backing out of the MAC right when UMass joined?
Yes.

I dunno, UMass still could have taken the MAC's offer of full membership. If they wanted a travel partner, it's not like Temple is right down the road. And you can't really blame Temple for leaving for the Big East/AAC.
09-28-2017 06:21 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Here's one that requires a bit of a stretch, but it's not impossible to imagine it happening if instead of founding OSU as the flagship of Ohio after the Civil War, the state creates a dual flagship system between Miami and Ohio U (similar to IU and Purdue) as some proposed.

Miami and OU join the Big Ten early in its history and remain there to this day. Due to having an extra team in the conference, Michigan State isn't added initially to keep it at ten and they stay independent; in the late eighties, MSU and Penn State are added, creating an East/West division split similar to now. When it comes time to expand, the Big Ten adds Nebraska like real life but adds Mizzou to put them at an even 14.

With Mizzou in the Big Ten, the SEC has to find a replacement to get to 14; I'll say that they add Virginia Tech to add a new market, solid program, and they don't have the political issues that someone like Oklahoma would. It's possible that Cincinnati is more successful without a single monster school in Ohio and that they're added to the ACC instead of Louisville to replace VT instead of Maryland, but who knows. Rutgers winds up in the AAC, they're in the East with UC/Louisville in the West while Navy stays independent.

There ends up being a public university in Columbus, but instead of being the giant university it is today it's somewhere between Akron and UC in terms of athletic and academic prestige. The Columbus State Buckeyes find a place in the MAC, who also added a random midwestern public school (e.g. Illinois State, Youngstown State) at some point to stay at an even 12 with Miami and OU gone. That sends ripples down to the MVC, Horizon, etc. that I don't care enough to speculate about. Could also come up with a scenario where Columbus is in the AAC as well.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2017 11:54 AM by Love and Honor.)
10-07-2017 09:51 AM
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chargeradio Offline
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RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Of course if Miami is "Ohio State", then perhaps Cincinnati has a hard time gaining traction athletically, and Cincinnati could just as easily be in the MAC instead of Columbus. The real question would have been would the Metro have taken Cincinnati and/or Columbus, because Cincinnati's only genuine Conference change since joining the Metro (which of course merged with the Great Midwest to form C-USA) was joining the Big East in 2005.

I also wonder if Rutgers would have been targeted sooner by the B1G:

West - Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue
East - Indiana, Ohio, Miami, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, Rutgers

The Big East takes either UCF or Houston to replace Rutgers, and C-USA takes WKU a little bit sooner. This could theoretically roll all the way down to NMSU and Idaho not getting football-only memberships in the Sun Belt after the WAC collapsed, as the Sun Belt would be at nine members in football. The MAC could be content with UMass as an associate member in football.
10-07-2017 10:14 AM
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