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Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
As an outside observer from the Midwest with no real dog in the fight what I take away from the failed Pac 16 expansion was that everyone involved was scheming and politicking:

Texas was actively campaigning to get Colorado swapped for Baylor and Baylor was threatening all parties involved with red tape and legal hoops to stall any moves for years.

A&M hated the whole idea and snuck off and made its own arrangements with the SEC without letting anyone else in on it or consulting with them.

Larry Scott was duplicitous with his 11th hour bait and switch of Oklahoma St for Kansas.

I'm not sure that you can say Colorado did anything sneaky. The Pac schools and Colorado had mutual interest regardless of what everyone else was doing and they made sure to pull the trigger before they could be screwed out of it.

Texas played their advocacy of Baylor as being a good neighbor but what they really wanted was another vote in future P16 dealings but their money grabbing that spoiled the deal showed whose interests they were really looking after.

Theoretically, the whole thing could have been salvaged: Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, and Texas Tech to the Pac 16.

Instead they leveraged the networks for money and Texas demanded the LHN to keep this shotgun marriage afloat for dust a few more years.
07-07-2017 09:53 PM
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jrj84105 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-07-2017 09:13 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I was under the impression that Colorado had a standing Pac 10 invite back in 94 when the Big 8 took in the Texahoma 4, but that Colorado was not really ready to pull the trigger on that offer.

Colorado didn't have a standing PAC invite because there wasn't an acceptable #12. The January 2009 Sugar Bowl win made Utah an acceptable #12 athletically, but there were still reservations academically. Before touching down in Oklahoma and Texas, Larry Scott's private plane stopped in SLC-once a few weeks earlier and again on the way out to Texas. Utah getting the votes to be #12 (or 16) and accepting the terms of a PAC invite was what allowed Colorado to finally receive the formal invite.

The "surprise" of A&M declining the PAC invite wasn't a surprise. Scott's planned trip to KU, however, was totally off script. Chip Brown said it was a last second play to sub KU for OSU. Maybe that's true, and if it is I'd wager that UT was the instigator in trying to kill the PAC16 while shifting blame to Scott.

Alternately, I think KU may have been looked at as UT's replacement in a PAC14 (CU, UU, OU, KU) but OU wasn't interested in leaving OSU and UT, and UT didn't feel threatened enough to drop their demands for unequal revenue and the LHN. I sort of think OU may have screwed up by not playing along with the bluff.
07-07-2017 10:43 PM
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jrj84105 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-07-2017 09:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  As an outside observer from the Midwest with no real dog in the fight what I take away from the failed Pac 16 expansion was that everyone involved was scheming and politicking:

Texas was actively campaigning to get Colorado swapped for Baylor and Baylor was threatening all parties involved with red tape and legal hoops to stall any moves for years.

A&M hated the whole idea and snuck off and made its own arrangements with the SEC without letting anyone else in on it or consulting with them.

Larry Scott was duplicitous with his 11th hour bait and switch of Oklahoma St for Kansas.

I'm not sure that you can say Colorado did anything sneaky. The Pac schools and Colorado had mutual interest regardless of what everyone else was doing and they made sure to pull the trigger before they could be screwed out of it.

Texas played their advocacy of Baylor as being a good neighbor but what they really wanted was another vote in future P16 dealings but their money grabbing that spoiled the deal showed whose interests they were really looking after.

Theoretically, the whole thing could have been salvaged: Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, and Texas Tech to the Pac 16.

Instead they leveraged the networks for money and Texas demanded the LHN to keep this shotgun marriage afloat for dust a few more years.

I really think Texas was the only one actively playing everyone else. I think it's debatable that UT really ever intended to join the PAC.

A&M didn't mislead the PAC, and I believe the interest of OU, OSU, and TTU was entirely genuine. The PAC was very forthright with Utah from the beginning.

I think Texas may have tried to use use Baylor as a bargaining chip (as in we'll drop Baylor if you let us keep the LHN) but I don't think even Texas could sell that bluff. There was never any real consideration of Baylor from the PAC side anyway.

The only time it got weird was when KU came into play.

I think Scott tried to paint UT into a corner by going after a foursome of OU, KU, CU, and UU. I think UT legitimately countered the impending death of the BigXII with a threat to go independent and cut OU and KU off from Texas. UT again made the better bluff and got what it wanted.

Texas certainly played the independence card later in negotiating to keep the LHN in the BigXII.
07-07-2017 10:59 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-07-2017 10:43 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 09:13 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I was under the impression that Colorado had a standing Pac 10 invite back in 94 when the Big 8 took in the Texahoma 4, but that Colorado was not really ready to pull the trigger on that offer.

Colorado didn't have a standing PAC invite because there wasn't an acceptable #12. The January 2009 Sugar Bowl win made Utah an acceptable #12 athletically, but there were still reservations academically. Before touching down in Oklahoma and Texas, Larry Scott's private plane stopped in SLC-once a few weeks earlier and again on the way out to Texas. Utah getting the votes to be #12 (or 16) and accepting the terms of a PAC invite was what allowed Colorado to finally receive the formal invite.

The "surprise" of A&M declining the PAC invite wasn't a surprise. Scott's planned trip to KU, however, was totally off script. Chip Brown said it was a last second play to sub KU for OSU. Maybe that's true, and if it is I'd wager that UT was the instigator in trying to kill the PAC16 while shifting blame to Scott.

Alternately, I think KU may have been looked at as UT's replacement in a PAC14 (CU, UU, OU, KU) but OU wasn't interested in leaving OSU and UT, and UT didn't feel threatened enough to drop their demands for unequal revenue and the LHN. I sort of think OU may have screwed up by not playing along with the bluff.


You are talking about 2010, but I am talking about 1994. Here is an article from the LA Times that says Colorado voted 6-3 to turn down the P10 in 1994 because the P10's vote to issue an invite came after Colorado had agreed to the formation of the B12. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-23/s...conference

My understanding was that the PAC 10 would have been at 11, just like the B10 from 1990 to the addition of Nebraska and that Colorado did not need a 12th because the P10 was always okay with Colorado.

I guess I would compare Colorado and the P10 to the SEC and TAMU - the affinity and the invite have been there for years - waiting for Colorado and TAMU. Georgia Tech could have joined the ACC in 1965 had they asked - they always had the votes.
(This post was last modified: 07-07-2017 11:20 PM by lumberpack4.)
07-07-2017 11:10 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-07-2017 07:14 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 02:51 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 08:36 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 11:42 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Then Texas could trick out its home schedule with Notre Dame, Tennessee, Penn State a bunch of other programs who are no longer in it for the standings.

Wait, what?

They are programs where the supporters are showing up for the institution more so than the product at this point.

There was a time when Penn State was an outsider playing in a 50,000 seater with a chip on its shoulder where it was a fight every week for respect in the rankings.

Now it's just a mega huge program that plays decent football against top flight competition. Championship hunger is no longer there. Fans accept the glory days are in the past but show up because the football is a major event.

It's like these classic names that have raised admission standards which give them the effective talent level of a Northwestern. A Top 10 finish becomes a high water mark when the Alabama's and Ohio State's are laser focused on a national title.

Florida State I feel while past it's peak still has that championship hunger to try and sign the nation's top recruiting class. They'll never take a Northwestern mindset to recruiting.

I was mostly with you until the bold. If you think Penn State isn't trying to win a championship then you must not be paying attention. Penn State fought tooth and nail to avoid any penalties in the Jerry Sandusky decision and have been playing handicapped with the sanctions against them but still was above .500 and made bowls once eligible again. They fought like crazy to be in the playoffs last year instead of Ohio State, who PSU beat.

Florida State won a national championship a couple years ago and you say they aren't trying? I wish Penn State and Liberty would accidentally win a couple! I just can't buy Tennessee or Notre Dame not trying either.

In the 80's Notre Dame and Penn State dominated recruiting in the B1G region. They were the hot programs not Ohio State and Michigan.

I just feel the fans of Notre Dame and Penn State don't see realism in returning to the 80's power structure. Scholarship limits, more competition, more academic programs ect.

FSU's peak was in the late 90's early 00's. Those were the years where the national championship came down to winner of the FSU-Florida-Miami games. On the field expectations at FSU though are still sky high which is my point, where at some places in the P5 its more about the pageantry of a traditional program for fans than results on the field.
07-07-2017 11:14 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-07-2017 06:52 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Anyway, UT succeeded not only in getting a sweet Tv deal that permanently hobbled the BigXII conference and killed the PACN's chance at long term viability

If a PACIFIC network isn't viable with a base of Pacific markets, then there shouldn't be a Pacific network.

Houston, Dallas, SA, Austin, OKC, Tulsa, KC ... these are all great examples of markets that have nothing to do with Pacific.


(07-07-2017 11:10 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  You are talking about 2010, but I am talking about 1994. Here is an article from the LA Times that says Colorado voted 6-3 to turn down the P10 in 1994 because the P10's vote to issue an invite came after Colorado had agreed to the formation of the B12. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-23/s...conference

My understanding was that the PAC 10 would have been at 11, just like the B10 from 1990 to the addition of Nebraska and that Colorado did not need a 12th because the P10 was always okay with Colorado.

I guess I would compare Colorado and the P10 to the SEC and TAMU - the affinity and the invite have been there for years - waiting for Colorado and TAMU. Georgia Tech could have joined the ACC in 1965 had they asked - they always had the votes.

Thank you, this is answers exactly the question I was going to bring up: why didn't Colorado just join the PAC when the Big 8 was ending, if they wanted in that conference so badly??

Why wait 15 years, winning the Big 12 just one time in that stretch, to finally say "OK, we're done" ??
07-08-2017 03:35 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-07-2017 11:10 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 10:43 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 09:13 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I was under the impression that Colorado had a standing Pac 10 invite back in 94 when the Big 8 took in the Texahoma 4, but that Colorado was not really ready to pull the trigger on that offer.

Colorado didn't have a standing PAC invite because there wasn't an acceptable #12. The January 2009 Sugar Bowl win made Utah an acceptable #12 athletically, but there were still reservations academically. Before touching down in Oklahoma and Texas, Larry Scott's private plane stopped in SLC-once a few weeks earlier and again on the way out to Texas. Utah getting the votes to be #12 (or 16) and accepting the terms of a PAC invite was what allowed Colorado to finally receive the formal invite.

The "surprise" of A&M declining the PAC invite wasn't a surprise. Scott's planned trip to KU, however, was totally off script. Chip Brown said it was a last second play to sub KU for OSU. Maybe that's true, and if it is I'd wager that UT was the instigator in trying to kill the PAC16 while shifting blame to Scott.

Alternately, I think KU may have been looked at as UT's replacement in a PAC14 (CU, UU, OU, KU) but OU wasn't interested in leaving OSU and UT, and UT didn't feel threatened enough to drop their demands for unequal revenue and the LHN. I sort of think OU may have screwed up by not playing along with the bluff.


You are talking about 2010, but I am talking about 1994. Here is an article from the LA Times that says Colorado voted 6-3 to turn down the P10 in 1994 because the P10's vote to issue an invite came after Colorado had agreed to the formation of the B12. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-23/s...conference

My understanding was that the PAC 10 would have been at 11, just like the B10 from 1990 to the addition of Nebraska and that Colorado did not need a 12th because the P10 was always okay with Colorado.

I guess I would compare Colorado and the P10 to the SEC and TAMU - the affinity and the invite have been there for years - waiting for Colorado and TAMU. Georgia Tech could have joined the ACC in 1965 had they asked - they always had the votes.

You are correct. Numerous articles about Colorado being invited to the PAC 10 in 1994. There was a little smoke about Texas and BYU to the PAC 10 too. There are newspaper articles about New Mexico and BYU to the Big 8/12 from 1994 as well...the SWC falling apart was a huge moment and all kinds of rumors were going on...
07-08-2017 03:53 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-08-2017 03:35 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 06:52 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Anyway, UT succeeded not only in getting a sweet Tv deal that permanently hobbled the BigXII conference and killed the PACN's chance at long term viability

If a PACIFIC network isn't viable with a base of Pacific markets, then there shouldn't be a Pacific network.

Houston, Dallas, SA, Austin, OKC, Tulsa, KC ... these are all great examples of markets that have nothing to do with Pacific.


(07-07-2017 11:10 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  You are talking about 2010, but I am talking about 1994. Here is an article from the LA Times that says Colorado voted 6-3 to turn down the P10 in 1994 because the P10's vote to issue an invite came after Colorado had agreed to the formation of the B12. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-23/s...conference

My understanding was that the PAC 10 would have been at 11, just like the B10 from 1990 to the addition of Nebraska and that Colorado did not need a 12th because the P10 was always okay with Colorado.

I guess I would compare Colorado and the P10 to the SEC and TAMU - the affinity and the invite have been there for years - waiting for Colorado and TAMU. Georgia Tech could have joined the ACC in 1965 had they asked - they always had the votes.

Thank you, this is answers exactly the question I was going to bring up: why didn't Colorado just join the PAC when the Big 8 was ending, if they wanted in that conference so badly??

Why wait 15 years, winning the Big 12 just one time in that stretch, to finally say "OK, we're done" ??

Breaking with the Big 6 would not have been easy from a psychological standpoint. Even though Colorado had transformed from a plains/rockies entity to a rockies/west coast entity over the span of about 30 years doesn't mean the older alumni and political base have changed with the institution.

You have some of the same issues in the southeast particularly in the ACC. Even before expansion in 2003 some ACC schools were much more culturally southern while some had become eastern - Duke, UNC, and UVa had become very eastern from the 1970's to the early 00's. When I say eastern I mean a NYC/Boston/DC economic and political millieu. Now to someone standing in Northwestern or Syracuse, those three still appear southern because they are different from Chicago or NY and you really don't see the shift as much from the outside. Sometimes it's a change in your students, sometimes who you hire to run the University, sometimes a change in the demographics of the area, and many times a combination of both.

That's why Colorado balked for so long. That's why TAMU balked at the P10. That's why UVA and UNC will never go the B10. I think it's very difficult to exist comfortably outside your own culture if you hold a permanently inferior position.

I would suggest that to date there have been only a handful of P-5 moves where the moving school changed cultural bases - Maryland to the B10, West Virginia to the B12, and Mizzou to the SEC. In all three cases there were great push factors in addition to pull factors. WVa and Mizzou were both in a panic - WVa legitimately more so than Mizzou. Both were scared of being left in something lesser. Maryland's President and Chancellor had come to hate UNC and Duke and MD's role in the conference had diminished from Conference Leader from 1921 to the mid 1970's, to a near also-ran when it came to decision making.

The reason I know this is because I know the former UNC AD whose father was the AD at Maryland and have had the opportunity to converse with him regarding MD. You would not have seen this friction aired publicly in the ACC because that's not how the "country club" works, and only infrequently would it pop up in the Washington Post. In Raleigh, Charlotte, or Atlanta, MD's issues would be buried.
07-08-2017 06:41 PM
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jaredf29 Offline
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RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-06-2017 11:42 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just a thought here with all the talk about Texas being this coveted free agent.

In many ways the Texas brand has outgrown performance expectation. What I mean by this is there is know way the football team on the field can match the athletic ego the same way its been at Notre Dame for the past 30 years or so.

PAC could add KU/OU to 14 and Texas w/ ND type deal with a guarantee OU shows up on the PAC schedule.

Then Texas could trick out its home schedule with Notre Dame, Tennessee, Penn State a bunch of other programs who are no longer in it for the standings.

No. They'd have no interest in special treatment of Texas.
07-08-2017 06:51 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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RE: Could the PAC give Texas an ND type deal?
(07-08-2017 06:51 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  
(07-06-2017 11:42 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Just a thought here with all the talk about Texas being this coveted free agent.

In many ways the Texas brand has outgrown performance expectation. What I mean by this is there is know way the football team on the field can match the athletic ego the same way its been at Notre Dame for the past 30 years or so.

PAC could add KU/OU to 14 and Texas w/ ND type deal with a guarantee OU shows up on the PAC schedule.

Then Texas could trick out its home schedule with Notre Dame, Tennessee, Penn State a bunch of other programs who are no longer in it for the standings.

No. They'd have no interest in special treatment of Texas.

I think Texas as an independent is a product of their own ego. Outside of Texas what is the "hook" (pun intended). Notre Dame's hook is Catholics. BYU's hook is Mormans. If Baptists were rarer, that could be WF's or Baylor's national hook. Army and Navy have a national hook.

To be special as an independent I think you need something that causes people around the nation to be interested in you - a hook. I don't see that with Texas.
07-08-2017 07:01 PM
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