China unveiled its Type 055 naval destroyer on June 28, the latest step in its decade and a half of military buildup. The new Chinese destroyer outcompetes U.S. destroyers and cruisers, highlighting a major failure in U.S. Navy planning that stretches back to the 1990s. Given the 055’s long-range supersonic YJ-18 and YJ-12 over the horizon (OTH) anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs), the Chinese destroyer currently outcompetes U.S. Arleigh Burke class destroyers and bigger Ticonderoga class cruisers. Both ships rely on fewer and shorter-range Harpoon anti-ship missiles (ASMs) and aircraft carriers that are themselves vulnerable to China’s ballistic missiles. The U.S. Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM), under development since 2009, would right the balance, but not for years to come, and meanwhile we must assume China will continue improving its capabilities. Reaction times to the latest supersonic and hypersonic anti-ship weapons can be as short as 15-30 seconds. The YJ-18 and YJ-12 are inspired by Russian design, and the threat environment is complicated by unconventional technologies such as Russian-made anti-ship missiles camouflaged as commercial shipping containers. The U.S. Standard Missile-6 (SM-6) ASCM variant, which may be deployed before 2020, has less range than its Chinese counterparts. China’s military development cooperation with Russia, and fielding of the 055 destroyer, will fuel already-existing incentives for conventional first strike options, political tension and an arms race with the U.S., Japan, South Korea, Australia, Indonesia, and India. The arms race and tensions will hurt each country’s economic growth and international trade, as well as increase the risk of military conflict.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/...6872b4638f

as long as the USD is the unifying component, this is a positive in my book....

isn't this what many on the right have been looking for.....them taking care of "them"

the 'art of worrying' about "communism" is beyond my comprehension of tard.....

communism destroys itself.....just like we're doing by continuing to accumulate foreign owned debt.....

it's hardly an enigma why all my his/eco profs were dipshites....

#zeromacrounderstanding

oh wellzy.....

If their new gee-whiz gadgets are like ours, this probably won't work as advertised.

Im not overly concerned with hostilities against the Chinese today.

(07-01-2017 04:35 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  as long as the USD is the unifying component, this is a positive in my book....

isn't this what many on the right have been looking for.....them taking care of "them"

the 'art of worrying' about "communism" is beyond my comprehension of tard.....

communism destroys itself.....just like we're doing by continuing to accumulate foreign owned debt.....

it's hardly an enigma why all my his/eco profs were dipshites....

#zeromacrounderstanding

oh wellzy.....

Trump's needs to do something big. Conquer China, outsource their means to production to contractors, and export our heroin there. The debt would be gone in 3 years. Then we can give it back.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

(07-01-2017 09:03 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 04:35 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  as long as the USD is the unifying component, this is a positive in my book....

isn't this what many on the right have been looking for.....them taking care of "them"

the 'art of worrying' about "communism" is beyond my comprehension of tard.....

communism destroys itself.....just like we're doing by continuing to accumulate foreign owned debt.....

it's hardly an enigma why all my his/eco profs were dipshites....

#zeromacrounderstanding

oh wellzy.....

Trump's needs to do something big. Conquer China, outsource their means to production to contractors, and export our heroin there. The debt would be gone in 3 years. Then we can give it back.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I think they prefer opium.....

(07-01-2017 08:45 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Im not overly concerned with hostilities against the Chinese today.

You may not be concerned with China right now---but maybe you should be.

http://thediplomat.com/2017/06/china-and...n-roadmap/


What I would like to see is a very simple expedited effort to use off the shelf technology to mass produce a long range missile that fits in existing launch tubes that can match or beat Russian and Chinese weapons range. Doesnt have to be a super sophisticated hyper-sonic missile. Just a normal missile carrying current or better guidance systems and warhead 300 miles. In other words, I'd just like the American kids on our ships to be able to have a capability to sink the enemy thats equal to their opponents (or better). I don't want us sailing around in the equivalent of the WWll Sherman tank going up against a bunch of German Tigers.

We have ships running around that can only fire 8 anti ship missiles with a 60 mile range. The Russians and Chinese can hit our ships from 260 miles away and have 80 or more missiles on board. There is nothing even remotely secret or difficult about making a missile fly 300 miles. I'd suspend the frigate program until this problem is solved. This isn't wiz bang technology. It's just old school out gunning. It's why cruisers were better in battle than destroyers in the old days.

To be truthful, I'd like to see us build a new battle cruiser class ship. Heavily armed with missiles, lots of generators, a solid sensor suite, and ARMOR. We need some ships that can actually fight. I have serious doubts about a high tech Navy reliant on gizmos once the bullets start flying. My guess is most US Navy ships are combat ineffective after one hit. Basically, we are betting everything on the survivability of our aircraft carriers in an era where distributed lethality is probably the better play.

(07-01-2017 08:45 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Im not overly concerned with hostilities against the Chinese today.

Yup.

time for another round of panda trading and ping-pong diplomacy.

We've got more common interests than arguments. I'd think working with them to quiet this entire NK situation would be a positive for both of us. Not that it's a scientific sample or anything, but I've met probably a couple dozen Chinese nationals in years past, they LOVE America. Were in awe of this place and most all of what we've got/had going on. Much more like us than unlike us.

I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

(07-02-2017 02:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

Except for in the WWII Pacific arena of course.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

(07-02-2017 02:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

Depends. Are you willing to end the world or at least risk entire US cities over a lost carrier group sunk in a first strike conventional attack. You see, the problem is if they can accomplish a move using just conventional methods, then we'd have have to risk US cities to stop them in the Pac-Rim or, more likely, simply concede to their wishes in that sphere. Weakness inspires aggressive movement. Why do think the Baltics are concerned? Look at the Ukraine. Nobody lifted a finger when the Russians moved---not even a conventional finger. The Baltics know in the final analysis, if they cant be defended conventionally, the US isn't going to trade LA for Warsaw. The Pac Rim knows that as well.

That said, one thing that article fails to consider is S Korean, Austrailan, and Japanese Naval forces that would likely also be supporting US forces in the area. Another thing the article doesnt even mention---a military confrontation with China, where we can't effectively get near the area because our ships are vulnerable would also present N Korea with an opportunity to move against S Korea. Bottom line, US conventional weakness destablilzes the entire region.

(07-02-2017 06:33 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 02:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

Depends. Are you willing to end the world or at least risk entire US cities over a lost carrier group sunk in a first strike conventional attack. You see, the problem is if they can accomplish a move using just conventional methods, then we'd have have to risk US cities to stop them in the Pac-Rim or, more likely, simply concede to their wishes in that sphere. Weakness inspires aggressive movement. Why do think the Baltics are concerned? Look at the Ukraine. Nobody lifted a finger when the Russians moved---not even a conventional finger. The Baltics know in the final analysis, if they cant be defended conventionally, the US isn't going to trade LA for Warsaw. The Pac Rim knows that as well.

That said, one thing that article fails to consider is S Korea, Austrailan, and Japanese Naval forces that would likely also be supporting US forces in the area.

Russia and China are not going to be a world player. Demographically they are screwed in the next couple years for Russia and maybe in the next decade for China, could be sooner depending on how long there credit can last.

Both will be at best regional player but most likely China will have a civil war and Russia will vanish into smaller countries

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/02/asia/china...index.html

China rocket fails after launch.

(07-02-2017 07:45 PM)Dragonlair2.0 Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 06:33 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 02:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

Depends. Are you willing to end the world or at least risk entire US cities over a lost carrier group sunk in a first strike conventional attack. You see, the problem is if they can accomplish a move using just conventional methods, then we'd have have to risk US cities to stop them in the Pac-Rim or, more likely, simply concede to their wishes in that sphere. Weakness inspires aggressive movement. Why do think the Baltics are concerned? Look at the Ukraine. Nobody lifted a finger when the Russians moved---not even a conventional finger. The Baltics know in the final analysis, if they cant be defended conventionally, the US isn't going to trade LA for Warsaw. The Pac Rim knows that as well.

That said, one thing that article fails to consider is S Korea, Austrailan, and Japanese Naval forces that would likely also be supporting US forces in the area.

Russia and China are not going to be a world player. Demographically they are screwed in the next couple years for Russia and maybe in the next decade for China, could be sooner depending on how long there credit can last.

Both will be at best regional player but most likely China will have a civil war and Russia will vanish into smaller countries

not so sure about china....but yeah....they're both in a bit of a pickle...

china's overbuilding and population control is a Yuge problem....I'm with you relative to russia...I'm surprised the soviet collapse hasn't affected them more to this point....

china owns quite a bit of our debt, so they have working in their favor.....a 'political margin call' could become an issue if pressed from their side.....

it's all about the continued strength of the USD and how we react accordingly.....it's ours to lose en macro....

(07-03-2017 07:32 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 07:45 PM)Dragonlair2.0 Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 06:33 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 02:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

Depends. Are you willing to end the world or at least risk entire US cities over a lost carrier group sunk in a first strike conventional attack. You see, the problem is if they can accomplish a move using just conventional methods, then we'd have have to risk US cities to stop them in the Pac-Rim or, more likely, simply concede to their wishes in that sphere. Weakness inspires aggressive movement. Why do think the Baltics are concerned? Look at the Ukraine. Nobody lifted a finger when the Russians moved---not even a conventional finger. The Baltics know in the final analysis, if they cant be defended conventionally, the US isn't going to trade LA for Warsaw. The Pac Rim knows that as well.

That said, one thing that article fails to consider is S Korea, Austrailan, and Japanese Naval forces that would likely also be supporting US forces in the area.

Russia and China are not going to be a world player. Demographically they are screwed in the next couple years for Russia and maybe in the next decade for China, could be sooner depending on how long there credit can last.

Both will be at best regional player but most likely China will have a civil war and Russia will vanish into smaller countries

not so sure about china....but yeah....they're both in a bit of a pickle...

china's overbuilding and population control is a Yuge problem....I'm with you relative to russia...I'm surprised the soviet collapse hasn't affected them more to this point....

china owns quite a bit of our debt, so they have working in their favor.....a 'political margin call' could become an issue if pressed from their side.....

it's all about the continued strength of the USD and how we react accordingly.....it's ours to lose en macro....

Russia, China, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, England... they are all in a bit of a pickle... meanwhile in Poland...

(07-03-2017 08:12 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(07-03-2017 07:32 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 07:45 PM)Dragonlair2.0 Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 06:33 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 02:50 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  I would not worry to much about anyones conventional military forces. It's the nuclear ones to worry about.

Wars between the big boys will either never happen or will be nuclear. No one wins in a nuclear war.

Depends. Are you willing to end the world or at least risk entire US cities over a lost carrier group sunk in a first strike conventional attack. You see, the problem is if they can accomplish a move using just conventional methods, then we'd have have to risk US cities to stop them in the Pac-Rim or, more likely, simply concede to their wishes in that sphere. Weakness inspires aggressive movement. Why do think the Baltics are concerned? Look at the Ukraine. Nobody lifted a finger when the Russians moved---not even a conventional finger. The Baltics know in the final analysis, if they cant be defended conventionally, the US isn't going to trade LA for Warsaw. The Pac Rim knows that as well.

That said, one thing that article fails to consider is S Korea, Austrailan, and Japanese Naval forces that would likely also be supporting US forces in the area.

Russia and China are not going to be a world player. Demographically they are screwed in the next couple years for Russia and maybe in the next decade for China, could be sooner depending on how long there credit can last.

Both will be at best regional player but most likely China will have a civil war and Russia will vanish into smaller countries

not so sure about china....but yeah....they're both in a bit of a pickle...

china's overbuilding and population control is a Yuge problem....I'm with you relative to russia...I'm surprised the soviet collapse hasn't affected them more to this point....

china owns quite a bit of our debt, so they have working in their favor.....a 'political margin call' could become an issue if pressed from their side.....

it's all about the continued strength of the USD and how we react accordingly.....it's ours to lose en macro....

Russia, China, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, England... they are all in a bit of a pickle... meanwhile in Poland...

lol....you had to bring up both my german/polish heritage......

no beheadings or guns blazing.....I laugh at 'em too....at least the poles know how to degrease a radical raghead

(07-02-2017 08:04 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/02/asia/china...index.html

China rocket fails after launch.

Nice segue into my opinion on this issue. This has played out time and time again in our history. The Russians with the Soyuz craft beating us to space, having more powerful nuclear weapons, bigger hydrogen bombs, etc. What the article in the OP is trying to accomplish IMHO is to scare the crap out of the U.S. citizens in order to be open to a jump in military spending. Just like the Russians were using "glue and duct tape" to keep their cold war era tech in tact, I think the Chinese are doing the same. China may play in the free market economy, but at the top it's still a communist/socialist mindset. As soon as the leadership is comfortable with China's economic situation, they will screw it up and make a Marxist turn.

IMHO, the won't prevail unless they become an open country who embraces free market principles at the highest levels. If they ever get to that point, then world domination would die in favor of keeping the free market ride going indefinitely.

(07-03-2017 09:32 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 08:04 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/02/asia/china...index.html

China rocket fails after launch.

Nice segue into my opinion on this issue. This has played out time and time again in our history. The Russians with the Soyuz craft beating us to space, having more powerful nuclear weapons, bigger hydrogen bombs, etc. What the article in the OP is trying to accomplish IMHO is to scare the crap out of the U.S. citizens in order to be open to a jump in military spending. Just like the Russians were using "glue and duct tape" to keep their cold war era tech in tact, I think the Chinese are doing the same. China may play in the free market economy, but at the top it's still a communist/socialist mindset. As soon as the leadership is comfortable with China's economic situation, they will screw it up and make a Marxist turn.

IMHO, the won't prevail unless they become an open country who embraces free market principles at the highest levels. If they ever get to that point, then world domination would die in favor of keeping the free market ride going indefinitely.

which all lends to my point relative to the USD remaining supreme is the crux....

(07-03-2017 09:32 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 08:04 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/02/asia/china...index.html

China rocket fails after launch.

Nice segue into my opinion on this issue. This has played out time and time again in our history. The Russians with the Soyuz craft beating us to space, having more powerful nuclear weapons, bigger hydrogen bombs, etc. What the article in the OP is trying to accomplish IMHO is to scare the crap out of the U.S. citizens in order to be open to a jump in military spending. Just like the Russians were using "glue and duct tape" to keep their cold war era tech in tact, I think the Chinese are doing the same. China may play in the free market economy, but at the top it's still a communist/socialist mindset. As soon as the leadership is comfortable with China's economic situation, they will screw it up and make a Marxist turn.

IMHO, the won't prevail unless they become an open country who embraces free market principles at the highest levels. If they ever get to that point, then world domination would die in favor of keeping the free market ride going indefinitely.

From what I have heard from family members and in-laws that are rather high up in the service, the US is 10-15 years ahead of China in weapons development (specifically related to naval combat) and should remain there unless they make an unforeseen technological breakthrough.
The big news a few years back was the ICBM type weapons designed to sink an aircraft carrier. The threat was described to me as minimal at best to US forces and more of immediate threat to Russian aircraft cruisers and heavy destroyers.
The Chinese threat lies in their ability to "copy" US and Russian cold war era projects (think Star Wars) but with updated technology that would give them a badly needed edge in the event of a full scale conflict. China is the big bully with a massive army, growing naval fleet, and big aspirations, but zero military experience. Not necessarily a paper tiger, but likely less capable they they present themselves as being.

The US shouldn't be scared into military spending. This should be nothing more than a reminder that high military spending is unfortunately necessary to ensure that the US remains a generation ahead in military tech and readiness. Let's not pretend that a good portion of the world wouldn't rejoice a little if the US were embarrassed in another conflict with communist/socialist forces.

The Type 055 Destroyer: