(07-02-2017 10:01 AM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 10:30 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 09:55 PM)krux Wrote:  I've thought about this a little deeper. Perhaps my fellow cardinal fans can chime in on this. I wonder how much UK being untouchable in basketball played a role in our embrace of football. By that I mean, lets be honest, despite hour A+ basketball tradition we have a LONG way to go to catch up to them in prestige. We would have to win 5 (maybe 6 thanks to Andre McGee) more championships before they win 1 more just to tie them in titles. That's highly unlikely and a huge gap. It's a gap that's been there for a long time too. So I think the basketball rivalry in a way helped grow the football support. When I grew up it was the peak of Pitino ball at UK and Denny Crum's teams were starting to fall flat. But we could always point to football. "Just wait till football season" was the immediate response to UK fans talking trash during that time (and still is sometimes today lol). We rallied around that. We knew they had no history and no promise on the gridiron. So building and supporting the football team was our way to shove it in their faces.

Nah ... I don't think that has much to do with it.

I grew up in the peak of the Denny Crum era, and he was not only more than holding his own with UK, he was surpassing them. The year before we won our second title, we hired Schnelly, and we were the only school in the country with head coaches for basketball and football that had won national titles. Seeing the school commit to football like they had basketball was the beginning. It took Howard several years to start winning, but the attitude from the fans was there from the start. And we didn't start playing UK until Howard's last year, which was 10 years into his tenure. (UK refused to play earlier, when Jeff Brohm was QB-ing, and our team was stout.)

Amazing what can be accomplished with a committed admin. Memphis is beginning to reap the benefits of a football friendly Pres. and AD. Season tickets are on record pace and will most likely exceed 20k this year. While not P5 noteworthy, it does represent marked improvement for the program. Just a few years ago, 40k+ crowds were reserved for SEC teams. Nowadays, it's not uncommon to draw that many to lower P5, G5 and FCS games. As basketball finds its' footing, tradition, fan base and recruiting grounds give it a leg up in being above average/successful more often than not.

Also agree with your point about college sports markets. Memphis, the city, ranks highly in both revenue sports viewership as well. It's much easier to grab a slice of that pie than baking from scratch. This is where city schools promoting hometown teams can capitalize on transient populations. Memphis certainly has access to the necessary ingredients for success. It remains to be seen whether or not it all comes together, but there's no obvious obstacle blocking the Tigers becoming a top G5 fball program.

Memphis and Louisville are very similar -- and are huge competitors in business, as they boast logistics hubs that are mirror images of each other (with Louisville being the UPS Air HQ, and Memphis being FedEx's). The two cities even were competing for the Grizzlies NBA franchise, and candidly, I am glad our city lost out in that one. But it was a nice get for Memphis.

But Memphis could certainly follow the path Louisville used to get where it is today. Had Memphis had a personality like Schnellenberger in the mid-80's hired as their head football coach, I would feel confident in saying that the roles would be reversed, his impact was THAT big. That's 32 years ago, starting to sell a dream of football prominence, and getting the fan base to buy in. Louisville still has a long way to go, but the ball is rolling down hill now, and gaining momentum.

The key for G5 schools is to show solid and growing fan base. If Memphis, or Cincy, or UConn, or Houston, or South Florida, or Central Florida, had East Carolina's fan base, they'd already be in a Power 5 conference. To me, that is the biggest mystery about East Carolina. Their fan base should have them in a P5. I think the dissolution of the Big East is what has doomed them. They would have been a perfect fit for that conference.

Having said all that --- the American COULD grow into a conference that generates more money than it is currently. It has good programs, in big cities, and it plays exciting football. As a college football fan, I want MORE quality conferences, not less.

I hope the Big XII survives it's self destruction.
I hope the Mountain West and American get BETTER.
I would love for CUSA and the MAC and even the Sun Belt to thrive.

The more quality games on TV, the better, as far as I am concerned.

(07-02-2017 10:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 05:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo, thanks for the thoughts.

The other factor, which you may have good counter-arguments for, but which I think can't be dismissed for USF, is that Florida and Florida St are tough in-state competition, suppressing the fan support for USF and UCF.

No, you make a good point i missed - the University of Kentucky's historic lack of interest in football has surely helped pave the way for Louisville to build their football.

In contrast, if you drive around Tampa during football season, you will still see more Florida and FSU car flags than you will USF car flags. And a good number of Miami ones as well.

The fact that there were three established football powers in the state has surely hampered, and may always hamper, USF's ability to establish ourselves, both with fans and with recruits.

As long as UK is in position to make a bowl, or be competitive they have good attendance numbers.

(07-01-2017 05:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo, thanks for the thoughts.

The other factor, which you may have good counter-arguments for, but which I think can't be dismissed for USF, is that Florida and Florida St are tough in-state competition, suppressing the fan support for USF and UCF.

I think it more about the stadium issue. USF plays off campus in an NFL stadium.

(07-02-2017 10:35 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Is the only thing stopping Florida from being in that 9x,000-10x,000 attendance SEC club (Alabama, Georgia, LSU, and TA&M ?) simply the lack of another stadium expansion? Or is the demand really capped out at 8x,000?

Florida's official capacity is 88,500 ... Over the past 5 seasons, attendance has been 87, 87, 85, 90, and just shy of 88 this past season, a weird one because they only had 5 home games due to the storm and the shifting of the LSU game to LSU. That game would have been a capacity+ crowd and the average would have pushed 90 again.

They can shoe-horn up to 90,000 people in a given year, as in 2015, and that suggests that in a given year like that, attendance could have been even higher had the stadium had 5,000 more seats. But looking at the overall trend, the current capacity looks pretty much correct given the existing demand.

That's no dump on Florida. The stats say that, at 88,500 capacity, BHG Stadium is the 12th largest stadium of any kind in the USA, and the 18th largest in the world. But, their attendance does trail that of some big SEC rivals by several thousand fans. Last year, even at almost 88,000, that was good enough for just 6th place in SEC football attendance.

(07-02-2017 12:40 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 10:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 05:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo, thanks for the thoughts.

The other factor, which you may have good counter-arguments for, but which I think can't be dismissed for USF, is that Florida and Florida St are tough in-state competition, suppressing the fan support for USF and UCF.

No, you make a good point i missed - the University of Kentucky's historic lack of interest in football has surely helped pave the way for Louisville to build their football.

In contrast, if you drive around Tampa during football season, you will still see more Florida and FSU car flags than you will USF car flags. And a good number of Miami ones as well.

The fact that there were three established football powers in the state has surely hampered, and may always hamper, USF's ability to establish ourselves, both with fans and with recruits.

As long as UK is in position to make a bowl, or be competitive they have good attendance numbers.

Yes, sure. I mean, even last year, UK averaged 53,000 fans in the stands, not shabby at all. But I don't think there's any doubt but that football is second-banana at UK and always has been.

(07-02-2017 02:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 12:40 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 10:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 05:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo, thanks for the thoughts.

The other factor, which you may have good counter-arguments for, but which I think can't be dismissed for USF, is that Florida and Florida St are tough in-state competition, suppressing the fan support for USF and UCF.

No, you make a good point i missed - the University of Kentucky's historic lack of interest in football has surely helped pave the way for Louisville to build their football.

In contrast, if you drive around Tampa during football season, you will still see more Florida and FSU car flags than you will USF car flags. And a good number of Miami ones as well.

The fact that there were three established football powers in the state has surely hampered, and may always hamper, USF's ability to establish ourselves, both with fans and with recruits.

As long as UK is in position to make a bowl, or be competitive they have good attendance numbers.

Yes, sure. I mean, even last year, UK averaged 53,000 fans in the stands, not shabby at all. But I don't think there's any doubt but that football is second-banana at UK and always has been.

Most schools nudge numbers, but UK has a reputation for being shameless. I don't even begin to trust the 53k number.

(07-02-2017 04:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 02:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 12:40 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 10:11 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 05:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  quo, thanks for the thoughts.

The other factor, which you may have good counter-arguments for, but which I think can't be dismissed for USF, is that Florida and Florida St are tough in-state competition, suppressing the fan support for USF and UCF.

No, you make a good point i missed - the University of Kentucky's historic lack of interest in football has surely helped pave the way for Louisville to build their football.

In contrast, if you drive around Tampa during football season, you will still see more Florida and FSU car flags than you will USF car flags. And a good number of Miami ones as well.

The fact that there were three established football powers in the state has surely hampered, and may always hamper, USF's ability to establish ourselves, both with fans and with recruits.

As long as UK is in position to make a bowl, or be competitive they have good attendance numbers.

Yes, sure. I mean, even last year, UK averaged 53,000 fans in the stands, not shabby at all. But I don't think there's any doubt but that football is second-banana at UK and always has been.

Most schools nudge numbers, but UK has a reputation for being shameless. I don't even begin to trust the 53k number.

Just a neutral observer, but that number sounds reasonable to me. It's still football in the SEC.

(07-02-2017 02:35 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 10:35 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Is the only thing stopping Florida from being in that 9x,000-10x,000 attendance SEC club (Alabama, Georgia, LSU, and TA&M ?) simply the lack of another stadium expansion? Or is the demand really capped out at 8x,000?

Florida's official capacity is 88,500 ... Over the past 5 seasons, attendance has been 87, 87, 85, 90, and just shy of 88 this past season, a weird one because they only had 5 home games due to the storm and the shifting of the LSU game to LSU. That game would have been a capacity+ crowd and the average would have pushed 90 again.

They can shoe-horn up to 90,000 people in a given year, as in 2015, and that suggests that in a given year like that, attendance could have been even higher had the stadium had 5,000 more seats. But looking at the overall trend, the current capacity looks pretty much correct given the existing demand.

That's no dump on Florida. The stats say that, at 88,500 capacity, BHG Stadium is the 12th largest stadium of any kind in the USA, and the 18th largest in the world. But, their attendance does trail that of some big SEC rivals by several thousand fans. Last year, even at almost 88,000, that was good enough for just 6th place in SEC football attendance.

Thanks again for additional thoughts.

Who beat them out for 5th, Auburn? Alabama, TA&M, and Tennessee are the "Mega's" (10x), while Georgia is just a bit larger at 92 than Auburn and Florida around 88 each.

(07-03-2017 04:27 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 02:35 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 10:35 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Is the only thing stopping Florida from being in that 9x,000-10x,000 attendance SEC club (Alabama, Georgia, LSU, and TA&M ?) simply the lack of another stadium expansion? Or is the demand really capped out at 8x,000?

Florida's official capacity is 88,500 ... Over the past 5 seasons, attendance has been 87, 87, 85, 90, and just shy of 88 this past season, a weird one because they only had 5 home games due to the storm and the shifting of the LSU game to LSU. That game would have been a capacity+ crowd and the average would have pushed 90 again.

They can shoe-horn up to 90,000 people in a given year, as in 2015, and that suggests that in a given year like that, attendance could have been even higher had the stadium had 5,000 more seats. But looking at the overall trend, the current capacity looks pretty much correct given the existing demand.

That's no dump on Florida. The stats say that, at 88,500 capacity, BHG Stadium is the 12th largest stadium of any kind in the USA, and the 18th largest in the world. But, their attendance does trail that of some big SEC rivals by several thousand fans. Last year, even at almost 88,000, that was good enough for just 6th place in SEC football attendance.

Thanks again for additional thoughts.

Who beat them out for 5th, Auburn? Alabama, TA&M, and Tennessee are the "Mega's" (10x), while Georgia is just a bit larger at 92 than Auburn and Florida around 88 each.

Here's 2016's top seven in SEC football attendance:

(1) TAMU ....... 101.9k
(2) Alabama ... 101.8k
(3) LSU .......... 101.2k
(4) Tennessee .. 100.9k
(5) Georgia ...... 92.7k
(6) Florida ........ 87.8k
(7) Auburn ....... 86.9k

Doh! I forgot LSU, which is also a "Mega".

You'd think if longtime SEC programs like Alabama and LSU just recently expanded their stadiums into the 10x range, in 2010 and 2014 respectively, that Florida, Georgia, and Auburn would also be in the works ... or maybe they think such things are "vanity".

(07-04-2017 09:28 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Doh! I forgot LSU, which is also a "Mega".

You'd think if longtime SEC programs like Alabama and LSU just recently expanded their stadiums into the 10x range, in 2010 and 2014 respectively, that Florida, Georgia, and Auburn would also be in the works ... or maybe they think such things are "vanity".

Last fall, Florida embarked on a $100m athletic facilities upgrade program, part of that being a stand-alone football facility. So I don't think they view those things as vanity. I bet they think the demand just isn't quite there yet for a 100k stadium.

BTW, believe it or not, with the SEC schools that have gone over 100k capacity, the expansion has been actually more about 'depth' than adding sheer numbers of seats.

E.g. at LSU, the most recent expansion occurred in 2012, when about 7,000 new seats were added to bring the capacity up to 102,000. But of those 7,000 seats, about 5,000 were "club seats" that cost an arm and a leg and another 80 were suites. Only 1,500 were "general public" seats.

Historically, this wasn't the case. As of 2000, LSU had a long history of having "affordable" tickets, and there were lots of Baton Rouge families, ordinary working and middle class families, that boasted of having had prime location season tickets for decades. When he came to campus in 2000, Saban changed all that. He said LSU football needed significant facilities upgrades, and so needed to get with the cutting edge in terms of maximizing revenue, so the AD came up with then-alien proposals to convert many of those historical season tickets into high-priced club seats, along with the introduction of "personal seat licenses", where you had to make a BIG donation to the TAF (Tiger Athletic Foundation) just to gain the right to then buy those seats.

There was a LOT of wailing about this, and for a while it looked like the changes wouldn't go through, as long-time regular-folks loudly complained they were being priced out of their seats in favor of high rollers. These complainers were part of the LSU "good ol boy" network and were connected. But Saban won the argument by saying "this is what they are now doing at Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, and Georgia, do you want to keep up or will you be happy being their doormats every year"?

So for the past 16 years, the expansion has been more about adding premium-price seating rather than just adding as many general/cheap seats as possible to get the mass attendance up to 100,000. These schools are all about developing as much revenue as possible for each seat.

(07-02-2017 10:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 11:18 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 04:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 04:13 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-30-2017 08:21 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  But there's a critical difference: TCU had a deep/rich college football history to draw upon. They were a member of the power club, in the form of the SWC, for more than 70 years, so they were a college football power long before the NFL came to Dallas. Yes, they fell on hard times in the 1980s and 1990s, but those roots and legacy were there to be awakened when the program regained power status.

In contrast, the bulk of the AAC schools do not have those deep and rich football roots to draw upon. In the case of TCU, it was a matter of re-building what once had been a strong fan base. For a USF, it is an effort to create one out of thin air.

Good posts (including the longer one before this, that I did not quote).

So then ... what, in your opinion, allowed Louisville to stand out so much higher than what USF, Cincy, and the other comparable (in some form or another) schools of the current AAC have been able to accomplish? Both in terms of overall size & success of the athletic dept (in terms of money/budget, and in terms of facilities) and fan support.

Lack of professional sports in Kentucky? Lack of interest in U of Kentucky athletics? Of course, goes without saying that UK basketball is a blue-blood ... but then again Louisville has a pretty good basketball tradition (at least, I think ... not an expert on them).

Louisville's basketball tradition is A-level rich and deep, it goes back very far, farther than all but the bluest of the blue bloods such as Kentucky, Indiana, Kansas, North Carolina, and UCLA. So their basketball has been "power" level for decades, for at least 40 years, arguably longer. And the fan support has been there all along for it. Kentucky is just a college basketball-bonkers state, right there with North Carolina.

But more generally, I don't have an answer to your question. Louisville has been able to do something that, so far, nobody else has: Take a basketball fan base and turn it on, to a large degree, to football. UL made a big investment in football, and its fans have supported it. The fervor is there.

Really, Memphis is far more comparable to UL than USF, because like UL, you guys have a strong basketball history, not just in terms of results on the court but also a culture of strong fan support. The trick is to do the same thing UL has, convert that into strong football support. You've made some really good leaps in that regard the past 5-6 years, but still have work to do.

Maybe we (USF) will always be limited by the "so much to do in Florida!" shibboleth? Maybe it's one thing to get 13,000 fans to fill a basketball arena in Louisville in January, when it's 40 degrees outside and the sky is grey, and another to do it in Tampa at that same time, when it's 80 degrees and sunny outside, and the beach is a half-hour to the west and Disneyland is an hour to the east?

But I wish I knew what their secret was, so i could bottle it and ship it to Tampa.

Nah, I'm not buying the "so much to do in Florida" thing. For three reasons:

1) It hasn't stopped Florida and Florida State from succeeding.

... and Miami. But, even here, we see an impact. E.g., Miami's attendance is way lower than their success on the field would indicate. Even FSU, when they aren't 13-0 and competing for a national title, their attendance dips by 10,000 fans.

Only Florida consistently seems to draw 80,000+ fans for football no matter how the team is playing, and even they don't draw 95,000 - 100,000 like their blue-chip peers in Alabama, Georgia, and Louisiana do.

Maybe some midwesterners like yourself prefer the sights and sounds of Chicago, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, and Cincy to what Florida has to offer, but there's a reason that millions of retirees move from Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana to Florida, and not vice-versa. It likely does have some impact.

Yes, there's a reason I didn't include Miami on that list. They haven't really built much of a fanbase.

Retirees move to Florida for one reason: it never freezes. Same reason they move to San Diego and Phoenix. No one claims that the consistently low attendance at Diamondbacks, Suns, Cardinals, & Coyotes games is because of "too much to do" in Phoenix - but yet retirees flock to Phoenix anyways.

(07-05-2017 01:26 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-02-2017 10:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 11:18 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 04:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-01-2017 04:13 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Good posts (including the longer one before this, that I did not quote).

So then ... what, in your opinion, allowed Louisville to stand out so much higher than what USF, Cincy, and the other comparable (in some form or another) schools of the current AAC have been able to accomplish? Both in terms of overall size & success of the athletic dept (in terms of money/budget, and in terms of facilities) and fan support.

Lack of professional sports in Kentucky? Lack of interest in U of Kentucky athletics? Of course, goes without saying that UK basketball is a blue-blood ... but then again Louisville has a pretty good basketball tradition (at least, I think ... not an expert on them).

Louisville's basketball tradition is A-level rich and deep, it goes back very far, farther than all but the bluest of the blue bloods such as Kentucky, Indiana, Kansas, North Carolina, and UCLA. So their basketball has been "power" level for decades, for at least 40 years, arguably longer. And the fan support has been there all along for it. Kentucky is just a college basketball-bonkers state, right there with North Carolina.

But more generally, I don't have an answer to your question. Louisville has been able to do something that, so far, nobody else has: Take a basketball fan base and turn it on, to a large degree, to football. UL made a big investment in football, and its fans have supported it. The fervor is there.

Really, Memphis is far more comparable to UL than USF, because like UL, you guys have a strong basketball history, not just in terms of results on the court but also a culture of strong fan support. The trick is to do the same thing UL has, convert that into strong football support. You've made some really good leaps in that regard the past 5-6 years, but still have work to do.

Maybe we (USF) will always be limited by the "so much to do in Florida!" shibboleth? Maybe it's one thing to get 13,000 fans to fill a basketball arena in Louisville in January, when it's 40 degrees outside and the sky is grey, and another to do it in Tampa at that same time, when it's 80 degrees and sunny outside, and the beach is a half-hour to the west and Disneyland is an hour to the east?

But I wish I knew what their secret was, so i could bottle it and ship it to Tampa.

Nah, I'm not buying the "so much to do in Florida" thing. For three reasons:

1) It hasn't stopped Florida and Florida State from succeeding.

... and Miami. But, even here, we see an impact. E.g., Miami's attendance is way lower than their success on the field would indicate. Even FSU, when they aren't 13-0 and competing for a national title, their attendance dips by 10,000 fans.

Only Florida consistently seems to draw 80,000+ fans for football no matter how the team is playing, and even they don't draw 95,000 - 100,000 like their blue-chip peers in Alabama, Georgia, and Louisiana do.

Maybe some midwesterners like yourself prefer the sights and sounds of Chicago, Indianapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, and Cincy to what Florida has to offer, but there's a reason that millions of retirees move from Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana to Florida, and not vice-versa. It likely does have some impact.

Yes, there's a reason I didn't include Miami on that list. They haven't really built much of a fanbase.

Retirees move to Florida for one reason: it never freezes. Same reason they move to San Diego and Phoenix. No one claims that the consistently low attendance at Diamondbacks, Suns, Cardinals, & Coyotes games is because of "too much to do" in Phoenix - but yet retirees flock to Phoenix anyways.

I think you're missing a causal link - because it never freezes, there's more to do there. Like, in both San Diego and Tampa, you can go to the beach in January, and because it never freezes, companies like Disney and Universal have built huge entertainment complexes not far away. Phoenix, being in the desert far from the coast, is a bit different.

One thing all do suffer from, particularly w/regards to pro sports, though, is transplant-itis: Someone who grew up in Boston and then retires in Tampa isn't likely to stop being a Red Sox and Patriots fan and adopt the Bucs and Rays with the move, so support for the local Florida teams suffer.