(06-22-2017 01:41 PM)Hurricane Drummer Wrote:  Are we going to get game film to review and game plan for our boys each week of the season?

People have definitely been very helpful with their suggestions.

(06-22-2017 11:44 AM)invisiblehand Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.

It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.

The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.

Good luck.

Not that I want the kids to lose games, but you're going to find a lot more HS ranks running spread offenses than things like the triple option. Maybe it would be smarter for the kids' development to play them in a system that they are more likely to play in later years. It will teach them fundamentals of the style of play they are more likely to see in years to come.

If you're just going for wins... then choosing an offense that defenses don't see much might make sense. But if you actually want to prepare the kids to play later on, maybe you should go with the more popular offense. Not every one of the kids that play for you is going to end up at Navy.

Sigh. The triple option is one play, not an offense.

Rosewater: I highly encourage you to watch this 8 minute video. I think you will find it highly enlightening. It is Paul Johnson describing his offensive philosophy which is a type of spread. In it, he describes how the offense is flexible enough to do whatever they choose, run or pass.

When he was at Hawaii in the WAC, he set passing records with it because he had the personnel who could execute it that way. When he came to Navy, we didn't have people who could pass so he ran more option plays (note: not just the triple option).

Again, the spread is an offensive philosophy. Plays are how you execute that philosophy. There are many ways you can execute spread offenses.

(06-23-2017 10:18 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 11:44 AM)invisiblehand Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.

It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.

The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.

Good luck.

Not that I want the kids to lose games, but you're going to find a lot more HS ranks running spread offenses than things like the triple option. Maybe it would be smarter for the kids' development to play them in a system that they are more likely to play in later years. It will teach them fundamentals of the style of play they are more likely to see in years to come.

If you're just going for wins... then choosing an offense that defenses don't see much might make sense. But if you actually want to prepare the kids to play later on, maybe you should go with the more popular offense. Not every one of the kids that play for you is going to end up at Navy.

Sigh. The triple option is one play, not an offense.

Rosewater: I highly encourage you to watch this 8 minute video. I think you will find it highly enlightening. It is Paul Johnson describing his offensive philosophy which is a type of spread. In it, he describes how the offense is flexible enough to do whatever they choose, run or pass.

When he was at Hawaii in the WAC, he set passing records with it because he had the personnel who could execute it that way. When he came to Navy, we didn't have people who could pass so he ran more option plays (note: not just the triple option).

Again, the spread is an offensive philosophy. Plays are how you execute that philosophy. There are many ways you can execute spread offenses.

Thanks for the link. Running an option in middle school is very difficult, but just like Paul said, you can limit the amount of decisions the quarterback has to make.

(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.

We ran the wishbone and had specific sets when would throw the ball rarely. Ive heard of middle school coaches using variations of the wing T. Newton and marshall ran the spread as well as any team ive ever seen at auburn. I know there are youtube videos breaking down the plays.

(06-23-2017 07:44 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.

We ran the wishbone and had specific sets when would throw the ball rarely. Ive heard of middle school coaches using variations of the wing T. Newton and marshall ran the spread as well as any team ive ever seen at auburn. I know there are youtube videos breaking down the plays.

Oh I love the wing t, but I am a bit of a fossil. Our new coach wants us on the same page with the high school so there it is. I will check this out and report back.

I would recommend using the veer instead of a spread offense. Bear Bryant used to say "three things can happen when you throw the football and two of thems bad". Keep it simple for the kids and you. I have had teams in Pop Warner that were very successful running the veer.

Split backs triple option attack then teach your kids to throw out of the formation by sending a back in motion.

Something that was always successful for us was switching to a unbalanced line inside the 20's. It almost always resulted in a score.
CJ

(06-23-2017 08:32 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I would recommend using the veer instead of a spread offense. Bear Bryant used to say "three things can happen when you throw the football and two of thems bad". Keep it simple for the kids and you. I have had teams in Pop Warner that were very successful running the veer.

Split backs triple option attack then teach your kids to throw out of the formation by sending a back in motion.

Something that was always successful for us was switching to a unbalanced line inside the 20's. It almost always resulted in a score.
CJ

I think they're trying to get the kids ready for high school where they already run the spread. But you can run a lot in the spread (see Tulsa 2017) and cut down on passing mistakes.

(06-22-2017 12:57 PM)DownEastPirate Wrote:  I'm not sure why someone would feel the need to over complicate middle school football. There's absolutely no need for the spread IMO, especially a passing spread. The most successful middle school team around Eastern NC has always run a wishbone or triple option. Find your best three or four players, put them as QB and the other back positions and go run the ball. Especially with younger kids, the less they think the faster they go.

That middle school I refer to has had multiple players played for them who went on to high school state championships, high level D1 teams, MLB teams, NFL teams etc.

All you have to do at that level is out athlete them.

Oh C'mon now... Rosewater said they were middle schoolers.

I think he giving his valuable precious time to coach at that type level is great, if he doesn't have specific player/s to run his type offense he can coach them become specialist or high college recruits for our programs.

I think is cool... way to go, rosewater

(06-23-2017 08:32 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I would recommend using the veer instead of a spread offense. Bear Bryant used to say "three things can happen when you throw the football and two of thems bad". Keep it simple for the kids and you. I have had teams in Pop Warner that were very successful running the veer.

Split backs triple option attack then teach your kids to throw out of the formation by sending a back in motion.

Something that was always successful for us was switching to a unbalanced line inside the 20's. It almost always resulted in a score.
CJ

In the past, we ran unbalanced all over the field. Since it is middle school their is no one in the crows nest to recognize it and lets face it, middle schoolers are rarely gonna recognize it on their own.

(06-23-2017 08:53 PM)Hurricane Drummer Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 08:32 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I would recommend using the veer instead of a spread offense. Bear Bryant used to say "three things can happen when you throw the football and two of thems bad". Keep it simple for the kids and you. I have had teams in Pop Warner that were very successful running the veer.

Split backs triple option attack then teach your kids to throw out of the formation by sending a back in motion.

Something that was always successful for us was switching to a unbalanced line inside the 20's. It almost always resulted in a score.
CJ

I think they're trying to get the kids ready for high school where they already run the spread. But you can run a lot in the spread (see Tulsa 2017) and cut down on passing mistakes.

That's a good point. Tulsa #4 offense in the country last season. Tulsa ran more offensive plays last year than any team in the country except Clemson.

Montgomery is a great young coach. He came up under Briles. Briles was influenced by Mumme and Leach. Leach played for Lavell Edwards at BYU. Edwards and Bill Walsh developed variations of the West Coast Offense. Short dink and dunk passing, resulting in a ball control passing offense. High schoolers run variations of that offense all over the country.

Thanks for the info on Tulsa.
CJ

Ive heard the spread option described as the winged t where the qb has the option to dump the ball off on passes

https://www.collegeandmagnolia.com/2016/...s-and-play

https://youtu.be/ua9GAdVJNaY


What do i know, lol. Get middle school kids to learn how to run the option then if your qb has skills work in the pass.

(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.

Not my board, but I also help coach a middle school spread. I coach QBs. It is an excellent system for middle school. Last year, I took a (5' 11") 7th grade wide receiver and taught him the mechanics of throwing. Within a month and a half, he was throwing 50 yard bombs down the sideline. The kid is going to be a really good QB. You don't need your QB trying to read defenses, it just isn't necessary at this level. Make sure you have 3 kids that can catch, and have them run the same routs (Streak, Slant, Hook) until it becomes second nature. In our spread, the QB throws to a spot, and it is the WRs responsibility to be there. Our QB knows where he is throwing before the ball is even snapped. Once we identify the weak coverage in the defense, we milk it until the defense moves players out of the box... then we run the ball. It is a very easy and effective system.

(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote:  Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.

It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.

The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.

Good luck.

Good QBs are developed. All you need is a player with the ideal size and frame. Mechanics can be learned. Same with snapping.

(06-23-2017 09:52 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 08:53 PM)Hurricane Drummer Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 08:32 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I would recommend using the veer instead of a spread offense. Bear Bryant used to say "three things can happen when you throw the football and two of thems bad". Keep it simple for the kids and you. I have had teams in Pop Warner that were very successful running the veer.

Split backs triple option attack then teach your kids to throw out of the formation by sending a back in motion.

Something that was always successful for us was switching to a unbalanced line inside the 20's. It almost always resulted in a score.
CJ

I think they're trying to get the kids ready for high school where they already run the spread. But you can run a lot in the spread (see Tulsa 2017) and cut down on passing mistakes.

That's a good point. Tulsa #4 offense in the country last season. Tulsa ran more offensive plays last year than any team in the country except Clemson.

Montgomery is a great young coach. He came up under Briles. Briles was influenced by Mumme and Leach. Leach played for Lavell Edwards at BYU. Edwards and Bill Walsh developed variations of the West Coast Offense. Short dink and dunk passing, resulting in a ball control passing offense. High schoolers run variations of that offense all over the country.

Thanks for the info on Tulsa.
CJ

I did not know of the connection from Briles to Leach and BYU. Interestingly enough Lavelle Edwards was an assistant of Tommy Hudspeth who left Tulsa as an assistant to coach BYU. At Tulsa he and Glenn Dobbs were the first ones to develop a more spread out, pass heavy offense. This is at least part of what Edwards developed his offense from. So in a way, Tulsa isn't running the Baylor offense, we're literally running our own offense, at least on a primitive level!

Bonus info: David Kragthorpe was an assistant of Edwards. Kragthorpe's son Steve revived Tulsa's football program in the early-mid 2000's.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/jo...l?mode=jqm

Here's a nice article on Tommy Hudspeth.

(06-23-2017 10:37 PM)Hurricane Drummer Wrote:  http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/jo...l?mode=jqm

Here's a nice article on Tommy Hudspeth.

Wow...
I had never heard of Coach Hudspeth. Thanks for sharing this.
Jim