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2017-18 NBA thread: off season
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-21-2017 09:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I think it's LeBron's game with short-term contracts that rubs Kyrie the wrong way. Kyrie has 3 more seasons on his contract, while LeBron can walk after next season and gives many signs that he will, leaving Kyrie and everyone else on a longer deal holding the bag.

LeBron thought the short deals were a good idea because they give him leverage over the Cavs' idiot owner, but they don't look so good to teammates who don't have the same ability to leave quickly. Would Kyrie be demanding a trade if he could be a UFA after next season, at the same time as LeBron?

I agree that LeBron's remaining one year and his non-committal (for now) about his future with the Cavs is part of it. However, Kyrie is no LeBron. Kyrie has no championship without LeBron and Kevin Love does not come to Cleveland without LeBron. LeBron holds the cards but so what. The Cavaliers got their first ever NBA Championship as a result. If Kyrie truly wants out - he has two more years on his current contract - then if I'm the Cavs I trade him for the best deal paying no attention to his wish list of teams.
07-21-2017 10:31 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-21-2017 10:31 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  However, Kyrie is no LeBron. Kyrie has no championship without LeBron

... which is exactly why Kyrie doesn't want to be in Cleveland after LeBron leaves. 07-coffee3
07-21-2017 11:49 PM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-21-2017 11:49 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(07-21-2017 10:31 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  However, Kyrie is no LeBron. Kyrie has no championship without LeBron

... which is exactly why Kyrie doesn't want to be in Cleveland after LeBron leaves. 07-coffee3

Don't be so sure that LeBron wants to leave. No one thought he would come back to Cleveland a second time either...07-coffee3
07-22-2017 10:09 AM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
The problem that LeBron has unintentionally created is that because of his short term contract and his obvious displeasure with the owner, players think he is leaving. It doesn't matter at all whether you or I think LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season. It matters a lot that Kyrie Irving thinks LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season.
07-22-2017 11:52 AM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-22-2017 11:52 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The problem that LeBron has unintentionally created is that because of his short term contract and his obvious displeasure with the owner, players think he is leaving. It doesn't matter at all whether you or I think LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season. It matters a lot that Kyrie Irving thinks LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season.

With all due respect Wedge, how do you know Kyrie thinks this? It's all speculation right now. I've read some articles that he wants to be more featured on the offense. He doesn't buy into playing defense and running the offense in the half court like LeBron does. It also drives me crazy about how folks are criticizing the owner. He's certainly not perfect, but he has spent the most money on payroll/luxury tax to bring a championship to Cleveland. Maybe Kyrie needs to look in the mirror. Does Kevin Love want out?

Again, LeBron does not take a back seat to anyone - he didn't to Pat Riley or to his Heat teammates either. When you are still the best player on the planet (yes, Durant is closing the gap) you hold all the cards. More power to him. If Kyrie is going to get pissy and wants out, then fine, the Cavs can trade him and get something in return. Kyrie is rolling the dice that whatever team he ends up on will compete for a championship. Well excuse me, but, he has that opportunity right now.
07-22-2017 12:07 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-22-2017 12:07 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
(07-22-2017 11:52 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The problem that LeBron has unintentionally created is that because of his short term contract and his obvious displeasure with the owner, players think he is leaving. It doesn't matter at all whether you or I think LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season. It matters a lot that Kyrie Irving thinks LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season.

With all due respect Wedge, how do you know Kyrie thinks this? It's all speculation right now. I've read some articles that he wants to be more featured on the offense. He doesn't buy into playing defense and running the offense in the half court like LeBron does. It also drives me crazy about how folks are criticizing the owner. He's certainly not perfect, but he has spent the most money on payroll/luxury tax to bring a championship to Cleveland. Maybe Kyrie needs to look in the mirror. Does Kevin Love want out?

Again, LeBron does not take a back seat to anyone - he didn't to Pat Riley or to his Heat teammates either. When you are still the best player on the planet (yes, Durant is closing the gap) you hold all the cards. More power to him. If Kyrie is going to get pissy and wants out, then fine, the Cavs can trade him and get something in return. Kyrie is rolling the dice that whatever team he ends up on will compete for a championship. Well excuse me, but, he has that opportunity right now.

If Kyrie could become a UFA at the same time as LeBron, he wouldn't be asking for a trade. He sees the same signs everyone else sees -- probably sees a lot more than we see because players talk and agents talk -- and based on his trade demand, he is thinking there's a very high risk he will end up on a no-LeBron Cavs team if he doesn't get out. Is he making the right choice? Maybe. Maybe not. It's his decision to make.

But he's not comparing the LeBron Cavs to what team he could be on elsewhere. He's comparing the no-LeBron Cavs to what teams he could be on elsewhere. That's why he wouldn't mind ending up with the Heat or Suns even if he can't end up on the Spurs.
07-22-2017 01:11 PM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #17
RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-22-2017 01:11 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If Kyrie could become a UFA at the same time as LeBron, he wouldn't be asking for a trade. He sees the same signs everyone else sees -- probably sees a lot more than we see because players talk and agents talk -- and based on his trade demand, he is thinking there's a very high risk he will end up on a no-LeBron Cavs team if he doesn't get out. Is he making the right choice? Maybe. Maybe not. It's his decision to make.

But he's not comparing the LeBron Cavs to what team he could be on elsewhere. He's comparing the no-LeBron Cavs to what teams he could be on elsewhere. That's why he wouldn't mind ending up with the Heat or Suns even if he can't end up on the Spurs.

I hear ya. But he has a chance right now to get back to the NBA Championship from the East. The Cavs blew the lead in game three and very well should have won the game. They could've gone back to GS with the series tied 2-2 instead of being down 3-1. No doubt GS is the team to beat but that is true for every other team not named GS. GS may repeat, or they could have some struggles or an injury or two. It's not easy to repeat as champion. Kyrie has two years left on his contract so even if LeBron leaves, he would play one year at most with the Cavs or the Cavs could trade him next year. My point in all of this is that I believe there is more to the story here than simply LeBron's future status with the Cavs. Consider this article from a Cleveland sports reporter:

Quote:Kyrie Irving wants room for his star to shine even brighter.

Irving is on tour with Nike through Asia, where throngs of fans, especially young ones, have flocked to events of his in Japan and Taiwan.

Irving had the second-best signature basketball shoe sales in the U.S. over the past year, trailing only LeBron James.

In fact, it was Irving who signed a five-year, $94 million extension on July 1, 2014 to stay with the Cavs, with the understanding that the franchise was making a commitment to him long term and he would use that commitment to launch superstardom.

Then James showed up, and almost everything changed for Irving.

Three years, three Finals, one championship, and a growing global footprint as a shoe and NBA jersey salesman (his No. 2 Cavs jersey was the league's fifth-best seller) later, and Irving wants to take his show away from James so he can grow his career (his on-court acclaim and notoriety, his brand, his voice) outside of James' shadow.

Numerous people who've talked to Irving over the past month have said to cleveland.com that he told them he wanted to leave to grow his career, and it was the message Irving sent to Cavs owner Dan Gilbert when he asked to be traded last week.

Irving has acknowledged over the past three years, to cleveland.com and to others, that is was an adjustment for him to play with James, to learn to take that back seat, or ride shotgun, with one of the few players in the NBA with enough chops to rightfully claim Alpha-male status over him.

And a quick examination of Irving's past statements, which we'll get to shortly, would show that Irving has long thought of stepping out on his own -- that he's learned to appreciate playing with James, he loved the thrill of winning the Finals, but for him there is more to an NBA career.

It is his right to feel that way. The Cavs should be able to get a high return on a trade for him, and the first four of the seven consecutive NBA Finals has been to were without Irving. James continues to expect he'll play in an eighth straight next June.

But what Irving's request is not, nor could it really be, is a reflection on James' future in Cleveland. They are incongruous.

James can be a free agent after this season. He has given no indication to the Cavs what he will do -- whether he intends to exercise his option for another season (unlikely), opt out and then seek the five-year, $209 million contract from Cleveland that he couldn't get anywhere else (plausible), or leave for the West coast or some other destination (possible, but, really, unknown).

James really doesn't know what he's going to do next summer, as frustrating as that might be for Gilbert, new GM Koby Altman, or even former GM David Griffin -- when it comes to long-term planning for this franchise. And, as an aside, if Cleveland demonstrates that it is where he has the best chance to win, the odds are strong he returns.

There is a discussion in the national media and in some basketball circles that if James would just commit to Cleveland long term, Irving would not have asked to be traded.

Consider what Irving said in May, during the Eastern Conference finals, after he scored 42 points in a Game 4 win on a night when James spent time on the bench with four fouls.

Irving said "it hasn't been anything short of difficult, trying to figure out when will it be my time," and, "the honest answer from me is that I cannot give any energy to anything that people say would be best for the team or even sometimes what I think would be best.

"My job is to be in the moment, especially with an unbelievable player like him," Irving said. "You have to just enjoy the ride just as much."

If Irving truly felt James was leaving after one more season, which almost surely would end in a fourth Finals with a chance to beat the Warriors for a second title in four years, why would Irving pick now as the time to get away from Cleveland?

If, in a doomsday scenario for the Cavs, James were to leave next summer, Cleveland would have the contracts of Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson to trade for pieces more suitable to Irving's game -- if indeed Irving believes a Cavs team as constructed (but without James) could not win.

Or, if the thought of playing without James in Cleveland was too much for Irving, he could've asked for a trade next summer, and the Cavs would be in the similar position of being able to get a huge return for him because he's such a great player.

Instead, Irving has asked out now, willing to walk away from the chance at a "super max" contract,because he feels he's ready to be a headliner now.

Regardless of who James plays for. This season or next.
Kyrie Gone With The Wind
07-22-2017 02:05 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #18
RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-22-2017 02:05 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Kyrie has two years left on his contract so even if LeBron leaves, he would play one year at most with the Cavs or the Cavs could trade him next year.

Kyrie's contract has two years remaining plus a third year that is a player option.

So why not wait until next summer to ask to be traded? Woj has a good take on that:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20125...ned-lebron
Quote:Irving has little, if any, voice on the franchise's present -- never mind its future. He has ideas, and he has come to understand: There's one voice. It's LeBron James. In a lot of ways, Irving understands it. James is the greatest player of his time, maybe ever, but everyone feels the end coming in Cleveland, and no one wants to be left to sort through the rubble. Dwyane Wade, a close friend, didn't know until the final hours that James was leaving Miami. So what chance does Irving have to find out James' plans before July 2018?

Why not wait until next year to request a trade? Why not wait until James leaves -- or perhaps decides to stay? Because now Irving has two seasons left until he can opt out of his deal, and it is harder to get traded with one season left on a contract. Paul George discovered this truth. Teams have to know they can re-sign you -- or believe they can sell a future -- or it shrinks the trade market. A dozen-plus teams are in hot pursuit of Irving, and those talks will only intensify over the next days and weeks.

There are more good bits in that article, including the fact that the Cavs were talking about trading Kyrie earlier this summer:

Quote:The Cavaliers have a singular tradeable asset, and it's Kyrie Irving. Which he knows because Cleveland had included him in trade talks around the NBA draft, league sources told ESPN. Long before Irving voiced his desire to be moved, Cleveland had considered the possibility, too -- and perhaps did so with a nod from James.
07-22-2017 02:26 PM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-22-2017 02:26 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(07-22-2017 02:05 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Kyrie has two years left on his contract so even if LeBron leaves, he would play one year at most with the Cavs or the Cavs could trade him next year.

Kyrie's contract has two years remaining plus a third year that is a player option.

So why not wait until next summer to ask to be traded? Woj has a good take on that:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20125...ned-lebron
Quote:Irving has little, if any, voice on the franchise's present -- never mind its future. He has ideas, and he has come to understand: There's one voice. It's LeBron James. In a lot of ways, Irving understands it. James is the greatest player of his time, maybe ever, but everyone feels the end coming in Cleveland, and no one wants to be left to sort through the rubble. Dwyane Wade, a close friend, didn't know until the final hours that James was leaving Miami. So what chance does Irving have to find out James' plans before July 2018?

Why not wait until next year to request a trade? Why not wait until James leaves -- or perhaps decides to stay? Because now Irving has two seasons left until he can opt out of his deal, and it is harder to get traded with one season left on a contract. Paul George discovered this truth. Teams have to know they can re-sign you -- or believe they can sell a future -- or it shrinks the trade market. A dozen-plus teams are in hot pursuit of Irving, and those talks will only intensify over the next days and weeks.

There are more good bits in that article, including the fact that the Cavs were talking about trading Kyrie earlier this summer:

Quote:The Cavaliers have a singular tradeable asset, and it's Kyrie Irving. Which he knows because Cleveland had included him in trade talks around the NBA draft, league sources told ESPN. Long before Irving voiced his desire to be moved, Cleveland had considered the possibility, too -- and perhaps did so with a nod from James.

Cleveland considered any and all trades before the draft (sans LeBron) in order to try and improve their team. That's what they should do if you want to win a championship. In any event, these articles don't say anything different than the conventional opinion and certainly a stretch that "LeBron gave a wink and a nod to trade Kyrie." I understand the speculation but I still stand behind my points and the article I posted from a beat writer that covers the Cavs. Time will tell and time to move on from Kyrie IMO.
07-22-2017 03:07 PM
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Post: #20
RE: 2017-18 NBA thread: off season
(07-22-2017 11:52 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The problem that LeBron has unintentionally created is that because of his short term contract and his obvious displeasure with the owner, players think he is leaving. It doesn't matter at all whether you or I think LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season. It matters a lot that Kyrie Irving thinks LeBron is leaving the Cavs after next season.

YUP.

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LeBron did what he had to do and brought a title to Cleveland... Now he's just jerking them around.
07-22-2017 06:36 PM
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