When I say "added", I mean it in the sense that Butler, Creighton, and Xavier were "added" to the C7 from the old Big East.

Look at the 2011-12, 2012-13, and 2013-14 seasons, in terms of attendance, record, and NCAAT performance.

Attendance:
STL - 6299, 7757, 7673

Butler - 7178, 6599, 7899
Creighton - 13507, 16665, 17155
Xavier - 10098, 10155, 9781

Record:
STL - 26-8, 28-7, 27-7

Butler - 22-15, 27-9, 14-17
Creighton - 29-6, 28-8, 27-8
Xavier - 23-13, 17-14, 21-13

NCAAT performance:
STL - 3rd round, 3rd round, 3rd round

Butler - none, 3rd round, none
Creighton - 3rd round, 3rd round, 3rd round
Xavier - Sweet 16, none, 1st round



Given that, I can see:
- have to take Creighton, as they're crushing it with attendance and support
- have to take Xavier, great program in a big Catholic market


Why Butler over STL, at that time???

Butler was closer to the Big East core? They weren't sure about St. Louis's long-term viability (as in what happens after Majerus leaves)? Maybe they wanted a non-Catholic school to blunt arguments that they were going to be exclusively Catholic? Who knows?

It seems like it was the right call, even if you can still make an argument that Dayton and St. Louis are the logical 11 and 12 for the BE (saying this as a VCU fan who would like to see the Rams in there while acknowledging that a large public university that isn't UConn won't likely see the light of day for a long time, if ever).

The main reason why they weren't added at the time was the unfortunate death of Rick Majerus. If he had been alive and coaching at SLU, they're in easily.

Also have to remember in your numbers- the 2014 season is meaningless, as that is after the expansion had taken place. Butler's 14-17 season was already in the BE. If you take it though to the 2010-11 season, Butler made the national title game. Meanwhile, SLU was only 12-19.

Do you think Catholic politics might have played any role?

Of course, I realize that I'm leaving out a very key datapoint about Butler from the 2010-11 season .... sure, that would be a valid counter-point.

But at least in terms of St Louis's three best seasons, the first two of which were right before the Big East was formed ... just seems odd to me that they didn't do it at the time. Heck why not add them for #11??

(06-07-2017 12:54 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The main reason why they weren't added at the time was the unfortunate death of Rick Majerus. If he had been alive and coaching at SLU, they're in easily.

But the 2013-14 was without him ...

(06-07-2017 12:55 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 12:54 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The main reason why they weren't added at the time was the unfortunate death of Rick Majerus. If he had been alive and coaching at SLU, they're in easily.

But the 2013-14 was without him ...

But 2013-14 season was AFTER the expansion had taken place. The Big East made their moves in March of 2013, 4 months after Majerus passed away. There were a lot of concerns about the SLU program. The interim coach did great with the guys that they had, but then he ultimately couldn't sustain it at all.

SLU is not a very good program by Big East standards.
Good attendance, but 5 NCAAT trips in the 50 years before Dec 2012, and zero Sweet Sixteens is disqualifying.

(06-07-2017 12:58 PM)stever20 Wrote:  But 2013-14 season was AFTER the expansion had taken place. The Big East made their moves in March of 2013, 4 months after Majerus passed away. There were a lot of concerns about the SLU program. The interim coach did great with the guys that they had, but then he ultimately couldn't sustain it at all.

..... but there wasn't any concern that Brad Stevens was getting massive offers thrown at him in early 2013?? And in fact, he did leave.

Coaches leave lower programs for larger programs, all the time.

(06-07-2017 01:03 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  SLU is not a very good program by Big East standards.
Good attendance, but 5 NCAAT trips in the 50 years before Dec 2012, and zero Sweet Sixteens is disqualifying.

And Butler qualifies, based on 2009-10, 2010-11?

And yet, when the amazing coach that caused that was rumored to be plucked away .... no problem?

And then there's DePaul .......


OK look, I should know better to argue about Big East bball with people who have forgotten more about it than I know.

Just thought it was weird that when I saw how good they were on the court in the two years before Big East was formed, and also did reasonably well in fan support, that they weren't considered. Is what it is, I guess.

St Louis and Richmond would be good adds for the Big East.

(06-07-2017 12:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Do you think Catholic politics might have played any role?

Of course, I realize that I'm leaving out a very key datapoint about Butler from the 2010-11 season .... sure, that would be a valid counter-point.

But at least in terms of St Louis's three best seasons, the first two of which were right before the Big East was formed ... just seems odd to me that they didn't do it at the time. Heck why not add them for #11??

And the 09-10 season. Back-to-back national runner ups was impressive, the 2010 Butler - Duke was a classic. The 2011 UConn - Butler game was some ugly ugly basketball but whatever they were doing UConn unlike Duke the year before had control of the game almost from tipoff.

(06-07-2017 01:07 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 12:58 PM)stever20 Wrote:  But 2013-14 season was AFTER the expansion had taken place. The Big East made their moves in March of 2013, 4 months after Majerus passed away. There were a lot of concerns about the SLU program. The interim coach did great with the guys that they had, but then he ultimately couldn't sustain it at all.

..... but there wasn't any concern that Brad Stevens was getting massive offers thrown at him in early 2013?? And in fact, he did leave.

Coaches leave lower programs for larger programs, all the time.

Butler had shown the ability to have several good coaches. SLU on the other hand hadn't.

I was surprised, too. Given the lack of deep history and the sad loss of Rick Majerus, it is kind of understandable. Still, however, I think they would be a solid add.

A) Catholic
B) Major market
C) Enrollment would be 4th highest in the conference
D) Academics rank top 100 (#96) is USNWR
E) Men's soccer is a historical powerhouse
F) Men's basketball has been very low the past 3 seasons, but can't be worse than DePaul (historically decent to pretty good: win%=54%, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16, 9 total appearances)
G) Conference history with DePaul, Marquette, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton
H) Round-robin 20-game conference schedule is clean to make

Butler had a number of advantages over St Louis.

Butler's recent success and fan support coupled with bigger a "snugger fit" geographically.

Announcement was made mid-March of 2013. St Louis had the tournament in 2000 and 2012. Butler in 2001, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2011. Both looked to be locked in to make it 2013.

So sustained success would seem to be a factor.

The "travel partners" (forgive the usage of that term, as it's probably irrelevant for the Big East in modern times) would break nicely too, if they added UConn as well ....

Creighton - STL
Marquette - DePaul
Butler - Xavier
Georgetown - Villanova
St Johns - Seton Hall
Providence - UConn

Really, Butler and Xavier were no brainers as additions to the Big East based on success, attendance, location and TV markets. (Remember, Brad Stevens was still at Butler at the time, not that they haven't had success since). I don't believe the Big East was interested in going to 12 without another strong team from the northeast to maintain geographic balance, so that left one spot to be fought over by schools from the Midwest. St. Louis, Dayton and Creighton were the most obvious remaining choices.

SLU brought a large TV market and was geographically close to new and existing members without overlapping those markets. SLU also had recent success and good attendance with Rick Majerus as coach. However, Majerus had recently passed away and there was some concern that SLU could maintain the same level of success.

Dayton had excellent attendance and better historical success than St. Louis. However, it's market overlapped with Xavier's. Drop the University of Dayton into Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Detroit, and they're in the Big East now.

Creighton had a smaller market than St. Louis, but in a town with no local pro sports. It's historical success was a little better than Dayton and much better than that of SLU. It's attendance was in the top ten in the country. The only major mark against it was that it was much more of a geographic outlier than Dayton or St. Louis.

Really, any of the three would have been decent choices. Creighton's president apparently had a good relationship with the president of Marquette, who fought for Creighton from the inside. The combination of recent and historic success, top ten attendance, and connections overcame the geographic issues and ultimately gave it the edge over Dayton and SLU.

There were six realistic candidates mentioned to join the C7: Butler, Creighton, Dayton, Saint Louis, VCU and Xavier. VCU wasn't added due to lack of institutional fit. Butler, Creighton and Xavier were added to their institutional fit, their on-court success and their markets. If they went to 12, Dayton and SLU would have been added, but I do believe that the C7 didn't want to create a more Midwestern presence with all of the adds, nor did they want more new members outnumbering the old (I'm adding in Marquette/DePaul here).

When the league expands in the next few years, Dayton and Saint Louis are highly likely to be included. Dayton had a great run under Archie, which hopefully continues with Grant, and SLU appears to have things back on track with Ford. Both schools have really strong resources being put into men's basketball, and both bring really great fan bases and markets.

Obviously, a UConn addition would trump all, but until otherwise definitively stated, they are remaining in the American.

(06-07-2017 02:07 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Really, Butler and Xavier were no brainers as additions to the Big East based on success, attendance and TV markets. (Remember, Brad Stevens was still at Butler at the time, not that they haven't had success since). I don't believe the Big East was interested in going to 12 without another strong team from the northeast to maintain geographic balance, so that left one spot to be fought over by schools from the Midwest. St. Louis, Dayton and Creighton were the most obvious remaining choices.

SLU brought a large TV market and was geographically close to new and existing members but did not overlap those markets. SLU also had recent success and good attendance with Rick Majerus as coach. However, Majerus had recently passed away and there was some concern that SLU could maintain the same level of success.

Dayton had excellent attendance and better historical success than St. Louis. However, it's market overlapped with Xavier's.

Creighton had a smaller market than St. Louis, but in a town with no local team sports. It's historical success was a little better than Dayton and much better than that of SLU. It's attendance was in the top ten in the country. The only major mark against it was that it was much more of a geographic outlier than Dayton or St. Louis.

Really, any of the three would have been decent choices. Creighton's president apparently had a good relationship with the president of Marquette, who fought for Creighton from the inside. The combination of recent and historic success, top ten attendance, and connections overcame the geographic issues and ultimately gave it the edge over Dayton and SLU.

Correct. Our President backed Creighton's addition, and was able to get enough support for their inclusion.

(06-07-2017 01:03 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  SLU is not a very good program by Big East standards.
Good attendance, but 5 NCAAT trips in the 50 years before Dec 2012, and zero Sweet Sixteens is disqualifying.

They built a solid reputation in the Great Midwest, C-USA and later under Majerus but yeah, SLU might as well be Seton Hall minus a few good years for them. And luckily for Hall, they are grandfathered into the BE. Without having joined the right group almost 40 years ago, they'd be in the MAAC.

SLU should just suck it up and play in the MVC. More regional rivals and it's not as if they couldn't compete for at-large bids.