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'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 05:13 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I'm just curious as to what this imminent global catastrophe the cultists are expecting is going to entail, exactly?

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06-08-2017 05:30 AM
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Post: #42
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
Global warming is a net positive throughout history. If it does happen and result in sea level change, we will adapt (this should really be the focus of innovation) or move through attrition. It isn't like we are going to wake up one day and be underwater. By the way, there are sunken civilizations all over the world. Bottom line is we cannot control the weather.

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06-08-2017 05:36 AM
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Post: #43
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 05:36 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Global warming is a net positive throughout history. If it does happen and result in sea level change, we will adapt (this should really be the focus of innovation) or move through attrition. It isn't like we are going to wake up one day and be underwater. By the way, there are sunken civilizations all over the world. Bottom line is we cannot control the weather.

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couldn't have stated it better....thank goodness we have a president with some balls and a clue...

CO2 is life

https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017/06/...ss-winter/

Quote:After wasting countless taxpayer dollars on pure nonsense, and ignoring the most basic of governmental responsibilities, conditions may get worse for Californians. The sun is the quietest it has been for 100 years and is likely headed even lower.

Solar Update June 2017–the sun is slumping and headed even lower
Solar cycle 24 has seen very low solar activity thus far, likely the lowest in 100 years.
California represents the real danger of buying into this CO2 catastrophic warming nonsense. Never is 600 million years of the geological record has CO2 caused catastrophic warming, not even when it was 7,000 ppm.
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 07:08 AM by stinkfist.)
06-08-2017 07:00 AM
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Post: #44
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 05:36 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Global warming is a net positive throughout history. If it does happen and result in sea level change, we will adapt (this should really be the focus of innovation) or move through attrition. It isn't like we are going to wake up one day and be underwater. By the way, there are sunken civilizations all over the world. Bottom line is we cannot control the weather.

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Correct. We are literally alive today because of climate change. Plant life, that exploded on the earth prior to our existence drastically CHANGED the EXISTING atmosphere from largely CO2 to oxygen as part of photosynthesis. Change is s normal and is always happening. The belief that present conditions are the "normal baseline" for anything is wrong headed and arrogant.
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 10:19 AM by Attackcoog.)
06-08-2017 10:16 AM
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Post: #45
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-07-2017 10:28 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(06-07-2017 10:00 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Renewable energy capacity around the world was boosted by a record amount in 2016 and delivered at a markedly lower cost, according to new global data – although the total financial investment in renewables actually fell.

The greater “bang-for-buck” resulted from plummeting prices for solar and wind power and led to new power deals in countries including Denmark, Egypt, India, Mexico and the United Arab Emirates all being priced well below fossil fuel or nuclear options.

Analysts warned that the US’s withdrawal from the Paris climate change agreement, announced last week by Donald Trump, risked the US being left behind in the fast-moving transition to a low-carbon economy. But they also warned that the green transition was still not happening fast enough to avoid the worst impacts of global warming, especially in the transport and heating sectors.

More:https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/06/spectacular-drop-in-renewable-energy-costs-leads-to-record-global-boost

Great! Maybe we don't have to subsidize 45% of the cost per KWH any more...

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06-08-2017 11:21 AM
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Post: #46
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-07-2017 10:15 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  
Quote:At the end of 2016, more than 24% of global electricity was produced by renewables, dominated by hydropower and with wind contributing 4.0% and solar 1.5%. For all energy, renewable energy – excluding traditional wood-burning – contributed 10%, overshadowed by the 80% coming from fossil fuels such as oil and gas.

10%. Congrats.

Until the storage issue has a better solution, wind and solar will face the "cloudy, calm day" critics with no answer.

(06-07-2017 11:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Help me understand. If the new sources of energy are actually cheaper---won't US companies race to switch? We don't need a Paris Accord to do that. The Free Market will do it all on its own. If that's not happening---then it means that alternative energy is not cheaper or more efficient. If that's the reality--then countries using fossil fuels will enjoy lower energy costs and own a competetive production advantage in the global market.

That means MORE jobs---not less. When such easily disproved arguments are used to support an agreement, you know ulterior motives are at play.

(06-08-2017 05:20 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is my problem with the AGW movement. They are bypassing so many obvious opportunities to make significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, in order to pursue only those that involve wind or solar or some kind of attack on oil or other "fossil fuels." The longer this goes on, the more it looks like a movement that is far more interested in opposing oil and other conventional fuels than a movement legitimately concerned about global warming or climate change or whatever.

+1,000 to all of this.

As Owl has often noted (iirc), wind, solar etc simply aren't reasonable alternatives to the largest uses of fossil fuels... mostly because of storage issues... and as many have pointed out for decades, creating more storage (mostly batteries) involves the mining of precious metals which causes many of the same issues that cause us to be against fossil fuels.

I'm a supporter of alternative fuels regardless of the global warming implications... I am interested in them mostly for cost/competition/universal availability and national security... but I'll take 'the environment' as a bonus. I'm also not afraid of batteries, even though they too are an environmental issue. I'd buy an electric car tomorrow if it met my needs... wanted to buy one for a decade or more. Have solar/wind on my boat, RV and 'ranch'.

Yet despite the fact that I support these things, I am considered an 'enemy' by most on the left of this issue because I don't accept their opinions as 'facts'.
06-08-2017 11:42 AM
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Post: #47
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
Why do you care what this nefarious "the left" thinks about your positions, Hambone?
06-08-2017 11:47 AM
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Post: #48
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 11:47 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Why do you care what this nefarious "the left" thinks about your positions, Hambone?

Did I say I cared? Did I say they were nefarious?

No.

They're just ******** whose votes count as much as reasonable people.

Why do you care what I care about?
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 12:02 PM by Hambone10.)
06-08-2017 12:01 PM
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Post: #49
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
If you didn't care, why mention that your positions make you an enemy of a group that you don't care about?

Just asking, man.
06-08-2017 12:04 PM
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Post: #50
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 12:04 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  If you didn't care, why mention that your positions make you an enemy of a group that you don't care about?

Just asking, man.

You're surprised that someone posting on a political board notes the political differences on an issue? I only said 'enemy' as an attempt to draw a clear distinction between the positions. (hence the quotes). Because I agree with their goals, I SHOULD be a 'friend'... but I'm generally not simply because I don't support their methods and/or rationale. I thought that was pretty obvious.

I care (to the extent that I do) that this means that we now spend time (just like you're doing with me) arguing about things that don't matter... even when we agree on the major points.

I think that's a massive waste. I'd rather spend that time (energy and money) doing what we agree on... which is continue to move towards cheaper, cleaner and less political energy. I think people that see me (or anyone else who holds a 'moderate' position) as an 'enemy' on this issue or many others are often not really interested in solving the issues, but instead on keeping the argument going.
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06-08-2017 12:35 PM
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Post: #51
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 11:42 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-07-2017 10:15 AM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  
Quote:At the end of 2016, more than 24% of global electricity was produced by renewables, dominated by hydropower and with wind contributing 4.0% and solar 1.5%. For all energy, renewable energy – excluding traditional wood-burning – contributed 10%, overshadowed by the 80% coming from fossil fuels such as oil and gas.

10%. Congrats.

Until the storage issue has a better solution, wind and solar will face the "cloudy, calm day" critics with no answer.

(06-07-2017 11:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Help me understand. If the new sources of energy are actually cheaper---won't US companies race to switch? We don't need a Paris Accord to do that. The Free Market will do it all on its own. If that's not happening---then it means that alternative energy is not cheaper or more efficient. If that's the reality--then countries using fossil fuels will enjoy lower energy costs and own a competetive production advantage in the global market.

That means MORE jobs---not less. When such easily disproved arguments are used to support an agreement, you know ulterior motives are at play.

(06-08-2017 05:20 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is my problem with the AGW movement. They are bypassing so many obvious opportunities to make significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, in order to pursue only those that involve wind or solar or some kind of attack on oil or other "fossil fuels." The longer this goes on, the more it looks like a movement that is far more interested in opposing oil and other conventional fuels than a movement legitimately concerned about global warming or climate change or whatever.

+1,000 to all of this.

As Owl has often noted (iirc), wind, solar etc simply aren't reasonable alternatives to the largest uses of fossil fuels... mostly because of storage issues... and as many have pointed out for decades, creating more storage (mostly batteries) involves the mining of precious metals which causes many of the same issues that cause us to be against fossil fuels.

I'm a supporter of alternative fuels regardless of the global warming implications... I am interested in them mostly for cost/competition/universal availability and national security... but I'll take 'the environment' as a bonus. I'm also not afraid of batteries, even though they too are an environmental issue. I'd buy an electric car tomorrow if it met my needs... wanted to buy one for a decade or more. Have solar/wind on my boat, RV and 'ranch'.

Yet despite the fact that I support these things, I am considered an 'enemy' by most on the left of this issue because I don't accept their opinions as 'facts'.

not so fast there kimosabe.....might want to read through this one....if they can figure out how to tweak this design, it becomes a game changer.....

it's simply a matter of time before these guys figure this all out.....

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-s...cle/494255
06-08-2017 01:15 PM
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Post: #52
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
One thing that gets overlooked. The big barrier to alternatives is not price. They cost more, but lots of people are willing to pay more just for the jollies they get out of thinking they are helping the world.

The big barriers are flexibility and reliability. There is no alternative that is as flexible as oil. There is no alternative that can do capably the one thing that we burn most of our oil doing--powering cars and trucks down highways. Solar and wind are not reliable. If the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing they are zeros. Until we get over those hurdles, alternatives are not a viable alternative to fossil fuels.
06-08-2017 01:25 PM
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Post: #53
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
Hambone, I don't consider you an enemy. Just was wondering why you used such a harsh/divisive word. If you had simply omitted the last paragraph, you would've lost nothing from your point and I wouldn't have asked what I did. But you felt the need to state what you did.
06-08-2017 01:49 PM
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Post: #54
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 01:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One thing that gets overlooked. The big barrier to alternatives is not price. They cost more, but lots of people are willing to pay more just for the jollies they get out of thinking they are helping the world.

The big barriers are flexibility and reliability. There is no alternative that is as flexible as oil. There is no alternative that can do capably the one thing that we burn most of our oil doing--powering cars and trucks down highways. Solar and wind are not reliable. If the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing they are zeros. Until we get over those hurdles, alternatives are not a viable alternative to fossil fuels.

The answer to both, quite simply, is additional advancement in technology for the storage of electrical energy in chemical materials.
06-08-2017 01:52 PM
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Post: #55
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 01:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One thing that gets overlooked. The big barrier to alternatives is not price. They cost more, but lots of people are willing to pay more just for the jollies they get out of thinking they are helping the world.

The big barriers are flexibility and reliability. There is no alternative that is as flexible as oil. There is no alternative that can do capably the one thing that we burn most of our oil doing--powering cars and trucks down highways. Solar and wind are not reliable. If the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing they are zeros. Until we get over those hurdles, alternatives are not a viable alternative to fossil fuels.

not yet...but their gaining on it....

IMO, you're somewhat making the same argument as kerosene vs electricity for lighting or DC vs AC

oil won't go away....we just won't be as dependant on it....that's a good thing in my book....

you have to start by subsidizing the research to make it happen.....and as you well know, the oil companies are spending major dollars in alternatives as well....

as the world and people evolve, so will the means to supply and distribute energy....

I think we can all agree on that....
06-08-2017 03:22 PM
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Post: #56
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 01:15 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  not so fast there kimosabe.....might want to read through this one....if they can figure out how to tweak this design, it becomes a game changer.....

it's simply a matter of time before these guys figure this all out.....

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-s...cle/494255

You quoted me, but I don't see that anything in this article in any way would change anything I said. That seems to be about generation, not storage. The issue is storage so that we can have solar power when it's night or raining or wind power when there is no wind. Without storage, you can't.

I'm sure they will figure it out. Unfortunately most current solutions involve things arguably as harmful to the environment as fossil fuels.



(06-08-2017 01:49 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Hambone, I don't consider you an enemy. Just was wondering why you used such a harsh/divisive word. If you had simply omitted the last paragraph, you would've lost nothing from your point and I wouldn't have asked what I did. But you felt the need to state what you did.

I used a harsh divisive word (in quotations) because that is precisely how I am often treated... meaning that is how THEY see me. I am quoting them. My usage was intentional, and I'm pretty sure, proper.

I felt I needed to state it that way because that is the point I am making. If I omit the last paragraph, I don't make that point. Do you honestly think my point is to simply say 'I agree'??

For the third time I'll state it... Some people are more interested in the argument than in the solution.

You're doing it here.

I said what I said for a purpose. I didn't claim it DID describe you or any other individual. The fact remains that there is a meaningful contingent on EITHER side of an issue that is more interested in the argument than in the solution... and the proof is that on this issue, despite the fact that I support their solutions, they still don't accept it.
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 03:35 PM by Hambone10.)
06-08-2017 03:32 PM
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Post: #57
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 03:22 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 01:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One thing that gets overlooked. The big barrier to alternatives is not price. They cost more, but lots of people are willing to pay more just for the jollies they get out of thinking they are helping the world.

The big barriers are flexibility and reliability. There is no alternative that is as flexible as oil. There is no alternative that can do capably the one thing that we burn most of our oil doing--powering cars and trucks down highways. Solar and wind are not reliable. If the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing they are zeros. Until we get over those hurdles, alternatives are not a viable alternative to fossil fuels.

not yet...but their gaining on it....

IMO, you're somewhat making the same argument as kerosene vs electricity for lighting or DC vs AC

oil won't go away....we just won't be as dependant on it....that's a good thing in my book....

you have to start by subsidizing the research to make it happen.....and as you well know, the oil companies are spending major dollars in alternatives as well....

as the world and people evolve, so will the means to supply and distribute energy....

I think we can all agree on that....

Nope, I don't agree with that. Industry innovates to meet needs and in turn make money. Government should not be creating the money for made up needs. If Government wants to put a value on energy alternatives and adjust contract prices accordingly (for instance giving a 10% discount on the total evaluated price for bids to design and build an office building if it meets efficiency thresholds), that is fine, but directly paying for research is a bad idea. When that happens, you just get a bunch of contracted scientists being paid for a level of effort with no incentive to actually produce anything of value outside of academics.
06-08-2017 03:35 PM
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Post: #58
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 03:35 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 03:22 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 01:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One thing that gets overlooked. The big barrier to alternatives is not price. They cost more, but lots of people are willing to pay more just for the jollies they get out of thinking they are helping the world.

The big barriers are flexibility and reliability. There is no alternative that is as flexible as oil. There is no alternative that can do capably the one thing that we burn most of our oil doing--powering cars and trucks down highways. Solar and wind are not reliable. If the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing they are zeros. Until we get over those hurdles, alternatives are not a viable alternative to fossil fuels.

not yet...but their gaining on it....

IMO, you're somewhat making the same argument as kerosene vs electricity for lighting or DC vs AC

oil won't go away....we just won't be as dependant on it....that's a good thing in my book....

you have to start by subsidizing the research to make it happen.....and as you well know, the oil companies are spending major dollars in alternatives as well....

as the world and people evolve, so will the means to supply and distribute energy....

I think we can all agree on that....

Nope, I don't agree with that. Industry innovates to meet needs and in turn make money. Government should not be creating the money for made up needs. If Government wants to put a value on energy alternatives and adjust contract prices accordingly (for instance giving a 10% discount on the total evaluated price for bids to design and build an office building if it meets efficiency thresholds), that is fine, but directly paying for research is a bad idea. When that happens, you just get a bunch of contracted scientists being paid for a level of effort with no incentive to actually produce anything of value outside of academics.

that specific point was based on how it got kick started.....I'm fairly certain the industry(s) wouldn't be where they currently exist if subsidized research/infrastructure wasn't initially offered....we'll just have to disagree on this point...
06-08-2017 03:57 PM
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Post: #59
RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 01:52 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 01:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One thing that gets overlooked. The big barrier to alternatives is not price. They cost more, but lots of people are willing to pay more just for the jollies they get out of thinking they are helping the world.
The big barriers are flexibility and reliability. There is no alternative that is as flexible as oil. There is no alternative that can do capably the one thing that we burn most of our oil doing--powering cars and trucks down highways. Solar and wind are not reliable. If the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing they are zeros. Until we get over those hurdles, alternatives are not a viable alternative to fossil fuels.
The answer to both, quite simply, is additional advancement in technology for the storage of electrical energy in chemical materials.

Absolutely. That's the game changer that hasn't happened yet.
06-08-2017 04:02 PM
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RE: 'Spectacular' drop in renewable energy costs leads to record global boost
(06-08-2017 03:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 01:15 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  not so fast there kimosabe.....might want to read through this one....if they can figure out how to tweak this design, it becomes a game changer.....

it's simply a matter of time before these guys figure this all out.....

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-s...cle/494255

You quoted me, but I don't see that anything in this article in any way would change anything I said. That seems to be about generation, not storage. The issue is storage so that we can have solar power when it's night or raining or wind power when there is no wind. Without storage, you can't.

I'm sure they will figure it out. Unfortunately most current solutions involve things arguably as harmful to the environment as fossil fuels.



(06-08-2017 01:49 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Hambone, I don't consider you an enemy. Just was wondering why you used such a harsh/divisive word. If you had simply omitted the last paragraph, you would've lost nothing from your point and I wouldn't have asked what I did. But you felt the need to state what you did.

I used a harsh divisive word (in quotations) because that is precisely how I am often treated... meaning that is how THEY see me. I am quoting them. My usage was intentional, and I'm pretty sure, proper.

I felt I needed to state it that way because that is the point I am making. If I omit the last paragraph, I don't make that point. Do you honestly think my point is to simply say 'I agree'??

For the third time I'll state it... Some people are more interested in the argument than in the solution.

You're doing it here.

I said what I said for a purpose. I didn't claim it DID describe you or any other individual. The fact remains that there is a meaningful contingent on EITHER side of an issue that is more interested in the argument than in the solution... and the proof is that on this issue, despite the fact that I support their solutions, they still don't accept it.

I could've responded to owl's post directly....I only responded to your's as it was last in line and you agreed with all his posits "1000%"

the bottom line is they're starting to figure out how to "store" energy.....that's the kicker down the road....
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