(06-11-2017 01:19 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 12:53 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 02:46 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Comparing the Big East and Big 12? No offense but the old WAC/original MWC was a much better conference than the Big East. The Big East 2.0:
West Virginia: the heavyweight of the conference, but not a heavyweight
Louisville: solid CUSA school
Pitt: had some good years along time ago.
Syracuse: had some solid top 20 teams a long time ago.
Rutgers: never good at football
Uconn: FCS football school call up.
USF: Start up program when they joined the BE (2 years of CUSA losing records)
Cincinnati: CUSA school
That lineup was not exactly a power lineup. Where's the Texas, Oklahoma? Heck, where's the TCU & OK ST?

C'mon, man... really? Yes, the Big East v2.0 didn't have any heavy weights/blue bloods to carry the brand, but some of what you wrote just isn't true.

West Virginia: Their records during the Big East 2.0: 11-1, 11-2, 11-2, 9-4, 9-4, 9-4, 10-3 with 3 BCS bowl wins: 2005 Sugar, 2007 Fiesta, 2011 Orange

Louisville: A solid C-USA school? Yes, they were a C-USA call-up. But their football program was BCS-level even before they joined the Big East. During their time in the Big East, they won the 2006 Orange Bowl and the 2012 Sugar Bowl.

Pitt: Their best years were behind them, but they still did decently well in the Big East 2.0. Their worst record during those years was 5-7 and they finished their time in the Big East with 5 straight bowl appearances, winning 2 of them and being ranked in the top ten at some points.

Syracuse: Their football was garbage during the later Big East years, no disagreement from me. But their basketball was elite.

Rutgers: Never good at football? They were very good at football during the Big East 2.0 years. From 2005-2012: 7-5, 11-2, 8-5, 8-5, 9-4, 4-8, 9-4, 9-4 with a 5-2 record in bowl games.

UConn: Yes, they were an FCS call-up. But they were already a national brand in basketball and handled themselves quite well in Big East football. In their 9 seasons of Big East football, they went to 5 bowl games, including the 2010 Fiesta Bowl. Although they lost that one, their overall bowl record was a respectable 3-2.

USF: Once again, another program that fared a lot better than you seem to recall. In 8 years of the Big East, they went 4-2 in bowl games and were ranked several times, as high as #2 at one point.

Cincinnati: It doesn't matter that they came from C-USA. 8 years of Big East play = 4-2 in bowl games with Orange and Sugar Bowl appearances and 5 10+ win seasons being ranked as high as #3.

Any narrative about the Big East 2.0 not being a quality football conference is 100% false and was mostly brought on by ESPN, who clearly had ulterior motives. The Big East had an excellent bowl record and won a bunch of BCS games. In fact, I would argue the Big East was a better football conference than the ACC during that time. We were at a disadvantage with 8 members when every other BCS conference had 12 and still handled ourselves well.

It's also worth mentioning that the Big East didn't fail so much as it got parted out to the other big time conferences - it was so "without value" that it now comprises the entire northern half of the ACC - 7 of the 15 current members are former Big East schools, and if they ever add a 16th the leading non-Texas candidates are former Big East schools. If you look at it more as a merger and realignment (remember, the non-football schools got a big raise too) everyone came out of it better off......except, of course, UConn (plus Cincy and USF, but they were only around for the end of days).

And I would add to that Rutgers going to the Big Ten, which is arguably the most valuable conference in college athletics plus West Virginia to the Big 12. The Big East lacked that Texas/Oklahoma or Ohio State/Michigan 1-2 punch in terms of big brands, but it still held its own against the other BCS conferences.

(06-11-2017 01:43 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 01:13 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 12:53 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  Comparing the Big East and Big 12? No offense but the old WAC/original MWC was a much better conference than the Big East. The Big East 2.0:
West Virginia: the heavyweight of the conference, but not a heavyweight
Louisville: solid CUSA school
Pitt: had some good years along time ago.
Syracuse: had some solid top 20 teams a long time ago.
Rutgers: never good at football
Uconn: FCS football school call up.
USF: Start up program when they joined the BE (2 years of CUSA losing records)
Cincinnati: CUSA school
That lineup was not exactly a power lineup. Where's the Texas, Oklahoma? Heck, where's the TCU & OK ST?

And to answer that question, West Virginia was every bit as good as TCU during the Big East years. As for Oklahoma State, Cincinnati compares pretty favorably from 2005-2012:

UC: 4-7, 8-5, 10-3, 11-3, 12-1, 4-8, 10-3, 10-3 -- 4-2 in bowl games, AP poll finishes of #17, #17, #8, and #25
OSU: 4-7, 7-6, 7-6, 9-4, 9-4, 11-2, 12-1, 8-5 -- 5-2 in bowl games, AP poll finishes of #18, #25, #10, and #3

How are you posting this much AND running the fry station?!

S**t. Was I supposed to work today?

(06-11-2017 01:55 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 01:43 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 01:13 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 12:53 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  Comparing the Big East and Big 12? No offense but the old WAC/original MWC was a much better conference than the Big East. The Big East 2.0:
West Virginia: the heavyweight of the conference, but not a heavyweight
Louisville: solid CUSA school
Pitt: had some good years along time ago.
Syracuse: had some solid top 20 teams a long time ago.
Rutgers: never good at football
Uconn: FCS football school call up.
USF: Start up program when they joined the BE (2 years of CUSA losing records)
Cincinnati: CUSA school
That lineup was not exactly a power lineup. Where's the Texas, Oklahoma? Heck, where's the TCU & OK ST?

And to answer that question, West Virginia was every bit as good as TCU during the Big East years. As for Oklahoma State, Cincinnati compares pretty favorably from 2005-2012:

UC: 4-7, 8-5, 10-3, 11-3, 12-1, 4-8, 10-3, 10-3 -- 4-2 in bowl games, AP poll finishes of #17, #17, #8, and #25
OSU: 4-7, 7-6, 7-6, 9-4, 9-4, 11-2, 12-1, 8-5 -- 5-2 in bowl games, AP poll finishes of #18, #25, #10, and #3

How are you posting this much AND running the fry station?!

S**t. Was I supposed to work today?

Pony will be in soon for our evals...

I really need to stop huffing that paint thinner in the janitor's closet.

On a side note -- I wish the Big East had the foresight to pursue western expansion earlier. In the late 2000's, a football-only expansion of BYU, Utah, TCU, and Boise State would have made the Big East a football powerhouse. Lock everyone down in a GOR and snag that $13 million + ESPN offer. Hindsight is 20/20, of course. But this league would have been awesome:

East:

UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
West Virginia
Pitt
South Florida

West:

Cincinnati
Louisville
TCU
Utah
BYU
Boise State

That league wouldn't have lasted 10 seconds.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean, but you can't just throw a bunch of schools together and call it a conference. Christ, the whole reason there's a thread right now called "Why do we all think the big 12 will implode" is because of this very reason. The Big XII schools don't give a damn about each other right now and would throw each one under the bus for more money and stability. Same thing for those schools had they been forced together.


The schools HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON. Geography, culture, mission, sport they care about - these things create rivalries and shared goals, competition. None of those things would exist in that conference. It's like the stupid fake rivalry game between UConn? UCF? who is it that created some garbage rivalry cup? That's this group of schools only as a conference.

Not a single one of those schools would have been stupid enough to sign a GOR deal to stay in that conference, much less the ones who had sacrificed and built competitive programs like Utah, BYU, and Louisville.

The Big East was never more than a stepping stone for most of the revolving door of football playing schools who joined it and I'm sorry for the basketball schools who got used in the process. The faster the Big East got out of the football game the better - they are in a FAR better place now.

(06-11-2017 02:34 PM)SMUleopold Wrote:  That league wouldn't have lasted 10 seconds.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean, but you can't just throw a bunch of schools together and call it a conference. Christ, the whole reason there's a thread right now called "Why do we all think the big 12 will implode" is because of this very reason. The Big XII schools don't give a damn about each other right now and would throw each one under the bus for more money and stability. Same thing for those schools had they been forced together.


The schools HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON. Geography, culture, mission, sport they care about - these things create rivalries and shared goals, competition. None of those things would exist in that conference. It's like the stupid fake rivalry game between UConn? UCF? who is it that created some garbage rivalry cup? That's this group of schools only as a conference.

Not a single one of those schools would have been stupid enough to sign a GOR deal to stay in that conference, much less the ones who had sacrificed and built competitive programs like Utah, BYU, and Louisville.

The Big East was never more than a stepping stone for most of the revolving door of football playing schools who joined it and I'm sorry for the basketball schools who got used in the process. The faster the Big East got out of the football game the better - they are in a FAR better place now.

Yet realignment has little to do with that, unfortunately. If that stuff mattered to conference commissioners, school presidents, and TV executives, teams like WVU/Pitt, Utah/BYU, Kansas/Missouri, Nebraska/Oklahoma, and Cincinnati/Louisville would still be in the same conferences. I mean, adding Rutgers to the Big Ten... come on. Other than AAU, Rutgers has nothing in common with the Big Ten. It's all about money.

The way I worded my western expansion post was misleading -- no, I don't think those western schools would have automatically said yes or signed a GOR. But at that time, those teams were tearing it up in the Mountain West and WAC with little to show for it. Their path to a BCS game was difficult, and their path to the title game was nearly impossible. At the time, the Big East offered the automatic BCS berth and a realistic shot at playing for a national title. Yes, it would be culturally and geographically far flung, but at the time, the Big East would have had a lot to offer. Of course, there's also the issue of the basketball schools agreeing to the expansion, which is a whole other hurdle in itself.

(06-11-2017 02:10 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  On a side note -- I wish the Big East had the foresight to pursue western expansion earlier. In the late 2000's, a football-only expansion of BYU, Utah, TCU, and Boise State would have made the Big East a football powerhouse. Lock everyone down in a GOR and snag that $13 million + ESPN offer. Hindsight is 20/20, of course. But this league would have been awesome:

East:

UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
West Virginia
Pitt
South Florida

West:

Cincinnati
Louisville
TCU
Utah
BYU
Boise State

the problem is Syracuse, Pitt and WVU woukd not want to be in that conference. They hated being in a conference with UC and USF and the fact we beat them regularly made it even worse. Those schools wanted to be in the ACC since the first raid in 2003. If it were not for politics Syracuse would have been in the ACC instead of Virginia Tech during the first raid.

(06-11-2017 02:47 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  Yet realignment has little to do with that, unfortunately. If that stuff mattered to conference commissioners, school presidents, and TV executives, teams like WVU/Pitt, Utah/BYU, Kansas/Missouri, Nebraska/Oklahoma, and Cincinnati/Louisville would still be in the same conferences. I mean, adding Rutgers to the Big Ten... come on. Other than AAU, Rutgers has nothing in common with the Big Ten. It's all about money.

The way I worded my western expansion post was misleading -- no, I don't think those western schools would have automatically said yes or signed a GOR. But at that time, those teams were tearing it up in the Mountain West and WAC with little to show for it. Their path to a BCS game was difficult, and their path to the title game was nearly impossible. At the time, the Big East offered the automatic BCS berth and a realistic shot at playing for a national title. Yes, it would be culturally and geographically far flung, but at the time, the Big East would have had a lot to offer. Of course, there's also the issue of the basketball schools agreeing to the expansion, which is a whole other hurdle in itself.

I agree with you 100% about adding both Rutgers and Maryland; all about the money. But there's a difference between adding a couple of odd fits to a successful, cohesive conference and trying to build a conference around schools that in many cases barely know one another - especially when there's not a marquee name in the bunch.

Point is it wouldn't have lasted even if it had ever been agreed upon in the first place. Not even worth worrying about.

(06-11-2017 03:27 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 02:10 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  On a side note -- I wish the Big East had the foresight to pursue western expansion earlier. In the late 2000's, a football-only expansion of BYU, Utah, TCU, and Boise State would have made the Big East a football powerhouse. Lock everyone down in a GOR and snag that $13 million + ESPN offer. Hindsight is 20/20, of course. But this league would have been awesome:

East:

UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
West Virginia
Pitt
South Florida

West:

Cincinnati
Louisville
TCU
Utah
BYU
Boise State

From the minute VT, and UM left, Cuse and Pitt were looking for an escape door. The BE would not have gotten 13 or 14 mil at that time.
After the big TV deals came in the BE was on the edge of adding a #9 fb in UCF, for a reported 13 mil, but Cuse and Pitt had found their escape, and pitt shot the deal down.

Had they added the above, rather than UCF, Cuse, Pitt, and WV would still have bolted for ACC/B12.

You can't just ignore reality, and history.. The writing was on the wall in 2003, it simply had to play out.