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Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #161
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-18-2017 06:36 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(05-15-2017 11:20 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I also think OU and WVU to the SEC is far more likely than OU and OSU, under the assumption Texas and KU go to the B1G. I just can't see two schools from a smaller and demographically challenged great plains state going to the SEC, and one of them neither a flagship, nor a R1 institution, whose biggest value is a game against OU in November, which under SEC scheduling would be allowed as an OOC game (like Clemson- So Car, FSU-Florida, Georgia Tech-Georgia, Louisville-Kentucky).

I just can't see a non-flagship school gaining admission to the SEC. They don't have to take a 2nd tier school from any state, and they don't have to take an R2 institution.

Well FWIW Tony Barnhart has said if the SEC expands it will go hard after OU and OSU.

Tony Barnhart is the most trusted reporter for the SEC office. Tony knew a month in advance of the Missouri announcement, in fact prerecorded it and still kept his mouth shut. I have more respect for him than any other SEC/ACC beat writer. Did you have a link?
05-18-2017 07:23 PM
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SMUmustangs Offline
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Post: #162
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-18-2017 07:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-18-2017 06:36 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(05-15-2017 11:20 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I also think OU and WVU to the SEC is far more likely than OU and OSU, under the assumption Texas and KU go to the B1G. I just can't see two schools from a smaller and demographically challenged great plains state going to the SEC, and one of them neither a flagship, nor a R1 institution, whose biggest value is a game against OU in November, which under SEC scheduling would be allowed as an OOC game (like Clemson- So Car, FSU-Florida, Georgia Tech-Georgia, Louisville-Kentucky).

I just can't see a non-flagship school gaining admission to the SEC. They don't have to take a 2nd tier school from any state, and they don't have to take an R2 institution.

Well FWIW Tony Barnhart has said if the SEC expands it will go hard after OU and OSU.

Tony Barnhart is the most trusted reporter for the SEC office. Tony knew a month in advance of the Missouri announcement, in fact prerecorded it and still kept his mouth shut. I have more respect for him than any other SEC/ACC beat writer. Did you have a link?

No, I don't. I figured that you were probably aware of it.
05-18-2017 07:47 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #163
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-18-2017 07:47 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(05-18-2017 07:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-18-2017 06:36 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  
(05-15-2017 11:20 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I also think OU and WVU to the SEC is far more likely than OU and OSU, under the assumption Texas and KU go to the B1G. I just can't see two schools from a smaller and demographically challenged great plains state going to the SEC, and one of them neither a flagship, nor a R1 institution, whose biggest value is a game against OU in November, which under SEC scheduling would be allowed as an OOC game (like Clemson- So Car, FSU-Florida, Georgia Tech-Georgia, Louisville-Kentucky).

I just can't see a non-flagship school gaining admission to the SEC. They don't have to take a 2nd tier school from any state, and they don't have to take an R2 institution.

Well FWIW Tony Barnhart has said if the SEC expands it will go hard after OU and OSU.

Tony Barnhart is the most trusted reporter for the SEC office. Tony knew a month in advance of the Missouri announcement, in fact prerecorded it and still kept his mouth shut. I have more respect for him than any other SEC/ACC beat writer. Did you have a link?

No, I don't. I figured that you were probably aware of it.

Did you hear it on his radio spot or see it in print? It will help me search. If Barnhart speaks I listen, but he's like me and getting a bit older and doesn't do as much as he once did.
05-18-2017 08:03 PM
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SMUmustangs Offline
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Post: #164
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
It has been a couple of months. IIRC it was a video. Might have been from his TV show or an interview.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2017 10:05 PM by SMUmustangs.)
05-18-2017 10:04 PM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #165
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers
05-19-2017 06:05 AM
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westwolf Offline
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Post: #166
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

This works better:

UT, Kan, Neb, Iowa
Minn, Wisc, NW, Ill
Mich, MSU, OSU, Pur
Ind, PSU, Rut, UMD
05-19-2017 08:34 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #167
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

I'm with you on your first two paragraphs. After that, not so much, for reasons I stated earlier.

For Oklahoma, a move to the SEC likely means that league goes to a 9 game schedule. If the RRR game with Texas becomes an OOC game, they need for their other mandatory rivalry game against OK State to be a conference game.

As for the B1G, they don't need Texas and all the problems having them would cause, and they really don't need Kansas either. Maybe if they could get other P5 conferences to approve pod scheduling for football, it would be a little easier. But I don't think any of them are all that interested in helping out the B1G.

Some PAC members may want to expand into Texas to help their network. But they would have to overcome the objections of the four Mountain time zone schools who joined the PAC because they wanted their focus to be toward California instead of Texas. They have enough votes to block such a move.

I think the remaining 8 B12 schools would have to reconsider the expansion scenarios they just rejected. Maybe they didn't add enough value to a 10 team conference, but if the alternative is to remain at 8 members, maybe the math changes enough. It would all depend on how much ESPN and Fox would want to reduce their payout by as a result of the loss of OU and OSU.

I could see the B12 just adding one more member to get back to an 8 game league schedule and stopping there. I have no idea who that might be, because there are no options where the pluses clearly outweigh the minuses.

My question would be: How soon would OU and OSU move to the SEC?
05-19-2017 09:23 AM
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Post: #168
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I don't think the sec or the PAC 12 have the option to take a solo OU. It's either offer OU and Ok state combo or watch Ou go to the big 10 if they leave the big 12. There could Be a huge risk, maybe fatal to the sec and PAC 12 if OU goes to the big 10 since that could also send Texas to the big 10. Or it could play out with ou and ku to the big 10 and Texas plus 3 to the PAC 12. In that case, you are looking at a stable power 4 with a very good leftover league or 2
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2017 09:37 AM by bluesox.)
05-19-2017 09:31 AM
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Post: #169
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

I'm with you on your first two paragraphs. After that, not so much, for reasons I stated earlier.

For Oklahoma, a move to the SEC likely means that league goes to a 9 game schedule. If the RRR game with Texas becomes an OOC game, they need for their other mandatory rivalry game against OK State to be a conference game.

As for the B1G, they don't need Texas and all the problems having them would cause, and they really don't need Kansas either. Maybe if they could get other P5 conferences to approve pod scheduling for football, it would be a little easier. But I don't think any of them are all that interested in helping out the B1G.

Some PAC members may want to expand into Texas to help their network. But they would have to overcome the objections of the four Mountain time zone schools who joined the PAC because they wanted their focus to be toward California instead of Texas. They have enough votes to block such a move.

I think the remaining 8 B12 schools would have to reconsider the expansion scenarios they just rejected. Maybe they didn't add enough value to a 10 team conference, but if the alternative is to remain at 8 members, maybe the math changes enough. It would all depend on how much ESPN and Fox would want to reduce their payout by as a result of the loss of OU and OSU.

I could see the B12 just adding one more member to get back to an 8 game league schedule and stopping there. I have no idea who that might be, because there are no options where the pluses clearly outweigh the minuses.

My question would be: How soon would OU and OSU move to the SEC?

I have heard several options but don't necessarily believe or trust the reasoning.
I have heard that the State of Oklahoma would push a Sovereign Immunity as a path to reducing the economic impact to just exit fees. This might take years and could just as easily prove unsuccessful so I find it doubtful.

The better possibility would be the networks claiming diminished value should Baylor be expelled or hit with some really punitive sanctions. While not likely (unfortunately) it seems more likely than the first and the contract does stipulate content for 10 schools and agreement upon a 10th at this point might be hard to attain and the networks may or may not want to keep those contracts.

The earliest date all things being equal would be for OU and OSU to put in a notice of intent to leave in 2023 and serve the last two years until the end of the GOR. That way the avoid the exit fee and wait out the GOR.

They could risk an earlier announcement 2021 and could probably afford a negotiated exit at that point. But that's a best guess. Of course their leaving could trigger a run and that might the negotiated settlement easier.

But I agree with the reasoning expressed so far. Without OU is KU really worth it to the Big 10? I don't think so. They help with the Big 10's need which is a football brand to increase their content value in the conference. And the Big 10 already carries most of Kansas's major markets. So I don't think so.

To keep the RRR in the face of larger conferences should UT and OU find themselves under different logos would require OSU to travel with OU. That leaves the PAC and the SEC as the only two conferences that might take both of them. Whichever did might also attract Texas.

With Notre Dame strongly affiliated and Oklahoma off the market the pressure will never be greater for Texas to move. If the Horns do move then realignment for the foreseeable future is over and we likely move to a champs only scenario which is what ultimately will make N.D. decide.
05-19-2017 12:08 PM
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Post: #170
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 12:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

I'm with you on your first two paragraphs. After that, not so much, for reasons I stated earlier.

For Oklahoma, a move to the SEC likely means that league goes to a 9 game schedule. If the RRR game with Texas becomes an OOC game, they need for their other mandatory rivalry game against OK State to be a conference game.

As for the B1G, they don't need Texas and all the problems having them would cause, and they really don't need Kansas either. Maybe if they could get other P5 conferences to approve pod scheduling for football, it would be a little easier. But I don't think any of them are all that interested in helping out the B1G.

Some PAC members may want to expand into Texas to help their network. But they would have to overcome the objections of the four Mountain time zone schools who joined the PAC because they wanted their focus to be toward California instead of Texas. They have enough votes to block such a move.

I think the remaining 8 B12 schools would have to reconsider the expansion scenarios they just rejected. Maybe they didn't add enough value to a 10 team conference, but if the alternative is to remain at 8 members, maybe the math changes enough. It would all depend on how much ESPN and Fox would want to reduce their payout by as a result of the loss of OU and OSU.

I could see the B12 just adding one more member to get back to an 8 game league schedule and stopping there. I have no idea who that might be, because there are no options where the pluses clearly outweigh the minuses.

My question would be: How soon would OU and OSU move to the SEC?

I have heard several options but don't necessarily believe or trust the reasoning.
I have heard that the State of Oklahoma would push a Sovereign Immunity as a path to reducing the economic impact to just exit fees. This might take years and could just as easily prove unsuccessful so I find it doubtful.

The better possibility would be the networks claiming diminished value should Baylor be expelled or hit with some really punitive sanctions. While not likely (unfortunately) it seems more likely than the first and the contract does stipulate content for 10 schools and agreement upon a 10th at this point might be hard to attain and the networks may or may not want to keep those contracts.

The earliest date all things being equal would be for OU and OSU to put in a notice of intent to leave in 2023 and serve the last two years until the end of the GOR. That way the avoid the exit fee and wait out the GOR.

They could risk an earlier announcement 2021 and could probably afford a negotiated exit at that point. But that's a best guess. Of course their leaving could trigger a run and that might the negotiated settlement easier.

But I agree with the reasoning expressed so far. Without OU is KU really worth it to the Big 10? I don't think so. They help with the Big 10's need which is a football brand to increase their content value in the conference. And the Big 10 already carries most of Kansas's major markets. So I don't think so.

To keep the RRR in the face of larger conferences should UT and OU find themselves under different logos would require OSU to travel with OU. That leaves the PAC and the SEC as the only two conferences that might take both of them. Whichever did might also attract Texas.

With Notre Dame strongly affiliated and Oklahoma off the market the pressure will never be greater for Texas to move. If the Horns do move then realignment for the foreseeable future is over and we likely move to a champs only scenario which is what ultimately will make N.D. decide.

As I look at UT's options, I don't see one that gives them fully what I think they want. I believe they want to be viewed as an academic peer of highly regarded universities. Specifically, of eastern universities. The PAC has a few schools (like Cal and Stanford) that would satisfy that desire. There are other excellent schools in the PAC, but they aren't necessarily the names you think of unless you live on the west coast.

A lot of those schools are in the ACC (like Georgia Tech, UNC, Virginia, Duke, Pitt, Miami). But I don't believe the ACC really wants them and their baggage, especially if OU is off the table. The B1G has a bunch of schools that suit their eye, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that they would get an invite there either.

There are no G5 schools that are both academic elite and top shelf athletically as well. Adding schools from the G5 to have a CCG had no appeal for them, and I don't think adding them to get back to 10 (or 12) would either. If they are stuck in a B12 minus OU, they might as well consider adding someone like BYU for football only just to get to an 8 game league schedule without adding any inconvenience in Olympic sport travel.

My crystal ball says no P5 realignment activity for about five years, and UT stays in the Big 12 even then, where they can be (or believe they are) the big dog.
05-19-2017 02:33 PM
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Post: #171
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 02:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 12:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

I'm with you on your first two paragraphs. After that, not so much, for reasons I stated earlier.

For Oklahoma, a move to the SEC likely means that league goes to a 9 game schedule. If the RRR game with Texas becomes an OOC game, they need for their other mandatory rivalry game against OK State to be a conference game.

As for the B1G, they don't need Texas and all the problems having them would cause, and they really don't need Kansas either. Maybe if they could get other P5 conferences to approve pod scheduling for football, it would be a little easier. But I don't think any of them are all that interested in helping out the B1G.

Some PAC members may want to expand into Texas to help their network. But they would have to overcome the objections of the four Mountain time zone schools who joined the PAC because they wanted their focus to be toward California instead of Texas. They have enough votes to block such a move.

I think the remaining 8 B12 schools would have to reconsider the expansion scenarios they just rejected. Maybe they didn't add enough value to a 10 team conference, but if the alternative is to remain at 8 members, maybe the math changes enough. It would all depend on how much ESPN and Fox would want to reduce their payout by as a result of the loss of OU and OSU.

I could see the B12 just adding one more member to get back to an 8 game league schedule and stopping there. I have no idea who that might be, because there are no options where the pluses clearly outweigh the minuses.

My question would be: How soon would OU and OSU move to the SEC?

I have heard several options but don't necessarily believe or trust the reasoning.
I have heard that the State of Oklahoma would push a Sovereign Immunity as a path to reducing the economic impact to just exit fees. This might take years and could just as easily prove unsuccessful so I find it doubtful.

The better possibility would be the networks claiming diminished value should Baylor be expelled or hit with some really punitive sanctions. While not likely (unfortunately) it seems more likely than the first and the contract does stipulate content for 10 schools and agreement upon a 10th at this point might be hard to attain and the networks may or may not want to keep those contracts.

The earliest date all things being equal would be for OU and OSU to put in a notice of intent to leave in 2023 and serve the last two years until the end of the GOR. That way the avoid the exit fee and wait out the GOR.

They could risk an earlier announcement 2021 and could probably afford a negotiated exit at that point. But that's a best guess. Of course their leaving could trigger a run and that might the negotiated settlement easier.

But I agree with the reasoning expressed so far. Without OU is KU really worth it to the Big 10? I don't think so. They help with the Big 10's need which is a football brand to increase their content value in the conference. And the Big 10 already carries most of Kansas's major markets. So I don't think so.

To keep the RRR in the face of larger conferences should UT and OU find themselves under different logos would require OSU to travel with OU. That leaves the PAC and the SEC as the only two conferences that might take both of them. Whichever did might also attract Texas.

With Notre Dame strongly affiliated and Oklahoma off the market the pressure will never be greater for Texas to move. If the Horns do move then realignment for the foreseeable future is over and we likely move to a champs only scenario which is what ultimately will make N.D. decide.

As I look at UT's options, I don't see one that gives them fully what I think they want. I believe they want to be viewed as an academic peer of highly regarded universities. Specifically, of eastern universities. The PAC has a few schools (like Cal and Stanford) that would satisfy that desire. There are other excellent schools in the PAC, but they aren't necessarily the names you think of unless you live on the west coast.

A lot of those schools are in the ACC (like Georgia Tech, UNC, Virginia, Duke, Pitt, Miami). But I don't believe the ACC really wants them and their baggage, especially if OU is off the table. The B1G has a bunch of schools that suit their eye, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that they would get an invite there either.

There are no G5 schools that are both academic elite and top shelf athletically as well. Adding schools from the G5 to have a CCG had no appeal for them, and I don't think adding them to get back to 10 (or 12) would either. If they are stuck in a B12 minus OU, they might as well consider adding someone like BYU for football only just to get to an 8 game league schedule without adding any inconvenience in Olympic sport travel.

My crystal ball says no P5 realignment activity for about five years, and UT stays in the Big 12 even then, where they can be (or believe they are) the big dog.

Ken D that perspective is as good as any, but with UT you just never know. The one point I'm not sold on is 5-6 years. The desire to get out is current. Should Baylor at least lose their vote as part of conference punishment, which is more likely than expulsion, it would only take 7 to dissolve. Personally I think Texas will take Tech and seek entry into the next best thing to what they have, a division of either the PAC or SEC in which they have their old SWC and Big 12 friends.

I would submit that if the SEC moves to 16 with OU and OSU, which is more likely that folks realize, then Texas and Tech could put us at 18. Sure they don't like what the SEC offers academically, but they have chose since their inception to sacrifice academic associations to keep neighbors close. Give them a division of Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas and Texas Tech with a cross division permanent rival of Texas A&M and Florida and I think they could buy into that.

Yes they are a royal pain in the butt, but in the SEC they are just one pain in the but out of 18 at that point. Even if they control 4 votes it isn't enough to even block legislation. They make oodles of cash, get to pretend to be the Kings of their division, the LHN becomes the SECNetwork West and helps with the transmissions in Spanish to TotalView in Mexico where the SECN will be broadcast in over 22 cities, and they play folks that make their donors happy.

It suits ESPN's purposes as well. They can rotate playing Virginia, North Carolina, Notre Dame and Duke and feel just fine. The money is kept in house at ESPN and we both prosper.

If ESPN can utilize them to get a piece of the PACN as some have suggested then maybe they take their Texas buddies with them. But personally with the options available to the PAC to cut FOX and ESPN out and go with Amazon I don't think that will happen, which leads us back to the SEC where they can keep friends.

I certainly could be wrong about that but its the feel I have for the situation given the 3 past times Texas has held conversations with us since '91.

And for the record if the Big 12 passes into history I strongly believe that a champs only will arise and with it full inclusion for N.D. in the ACC.
05-19-2017 10:43 PM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #172
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 08:34 AM)westwolf Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

This works better:

UT, Kan, Neb, Iowa
Minn, Wisc, NW, Ill
Mich, MSU, OSU, Pur
Ind, PSU, Rut, UMD

Iowa has rivalries with Wiscy and Minny. So, keep them together. Plus, and maybe even MORE importantly, Texas would love to be able to fly into Chicago for the Illinois games. Lots of UT alums in that metro area.

The two eastern pods I'm less certain of. If you put UM, OSU, and MSU in the same pod, that leaves the eastern pod as awfully weak (PSU) for football.
05-20-2017 01:58 AM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #173
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I like the sec going to 18 with ou, ok state, Texas and Tulane. The green wave is a much better option than Texas tech with location, academics, history and the fAct their athletics is weak is good for the ecosystem. The PAC 12 could grab Texas tech with Houston which would probably be needed for Texas to join the sec without tech.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2017 07:57 AM by bluesox.)
05-20-2017 07:56 AM
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goofus Offline
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Post: #174
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
SEC goes to 18, adds Tex, Kan, Ok, OkSt

SEC splits into 6 pods with 3 teams each

Southwest
Tex, OK, OkSt,

Northwest
Kan, Mizzou, Ark

west Central
LSU, Miss, MissSt,

east central
Bama, Auburn, Tex A&M

southeast
FL, Ga, SCar,

northeast
Tenn, Vandy, Ky

each year teams from 3 different pods will play each other rotating so that everybody plays each other every 2 or 3 years.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2017 08:48 AM by goofus.)
05-20-2017 08:31 AM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #175
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-20-2017 08:31 AM)goofus Wrote:  SEC goes to 18, adds Tex, Kan, Ok, OkSt

SEC splits into 3 divisions

Southwest
Tex, OK, OkSt, Kan, Mizzou, Ark

central
Tex A&M, LSU, Miss, MissSt, Bama, Auburn

east
FL, Ga, SCar, Tenn, Vandy, Ky

I'm a Big Ten fan and I endorse this message.

Obviously, the B1G would stay at 14 then, which is fine. The divisions are solid now...and with a 9-game slate, the conference still feels like a real conference with regular competition against the "other" division. The Pac-12 is fine with 12...it doesn't "need" to get in the central time zone. It's forever firmly a "power 4" conference, even if it does lag behind. They have all the great weather...so they can give the rest of the country the best college conferences. 03-lmfao

(...but I don't think Texas would ever settle for such a "safe" move.)
05-20-2017 08:46 AM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #176
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
If the sec landed Texas, ou, ok state and Kansas I would guess the big 10 would do something.

1) nd but not really possible with the acc tie
2) target PAC 12, could see the big 10 offer 10 schools and jump to 24 with 3 pods of 8. Wash st and oreg state join the mwc

If 2 happens the big 10 and sec propose 2 game playoff of pod winners. I'm sure the acc jumps to 18 with uconn, wvu and Cincy to join the party. The left over big 12 schools join the aac. Thus, you would have a p3 of 60 teams with two good leagues a notch below in the mwc and aac
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2017 09:40 AM by bluesox.)
05-20-2017 09:36 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #177
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-19-2017 10:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 02:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 12:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 09:23 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2017 06:05 AM)micahandme Wrote:  As for "clean and easy" scenarios go...I like OU and OkSt being the "first movers" to the SEC.

They fit the SEC culture...solidify its presence/claim to the state of Texas (and Oklahoma, obviously)...and they allow the SEC to have a new "west" pod that helps overall balance. Not only are many rivalries preserved...geography is preserved...and the "expansion" teams get to keep some of their natural connections.

OU/OkSt/Mizzou/TAMU
LSU/Arky/Miss/MSU
Bama/Auburn/UT/Vandy
UK/USCe/UF/UGA

This move would then clear the way for UT and Kansas to go whichever direction they choose--Pac-12 with two other regional,non-religious schools (TTech? Kansas State? Iowa State?) OR Big Ten alone.

For the Big Ten...the pods work out nicely. (Yes, Texas is still traveling a ton...but pods in the Olympic sports would help minimize that travel. Pod opponents twice...everybody else once, rotating home/away each season...18 games clean and easy. Or, if there are fewer "conference games" for a certain sport, your pod once and rotate through the other pods evenly--9 games.)

UT/Nebraska/Kansas/Illinois
Minny/Wiscy/Iowa/MSU
OSU/UM/NW/Purdue
Indiana/PSU/UMD/Rutgers

I'm with you on your first two paragraphs. After that, not so much, for reasons I stated earlier.

For Oklahoma, a move to the SEC likely means that league goes to a 9 game schedule. If the RRR game with Texas becomes an OOC game, they need for their other mandatory rivalry game against OK State to be a conference game.

As for the B1G, they don't need Texas and all the problems having them would cause, and they really don't need Kansas either. Maybe if they could get other P5 conferences to approve pod scheduling for football, it would be a little easier. But I don't think any of them are all that interested in helping out the B1G.

Some PAC members may want to expand into Texas to help their network. But they would have to overcome the objections of the four Mountain time zone schools who joined the PAC because they wanted their focus to be toward California instead of Texas. They have enough votes to block such a move.

I think the remaining 8 B12 schools would have to reconsider the expansion scenarios they just rejected. Maybe they didn't add enough value to a 10 team conference, but if the alternative is to remain at 8 members, maybe the math changes enough. It would all depend on how much ESPN and Fox would want to reduce their payout by as a result of the loss of OU and OSU.

I could see the B12 just adding one more member to get back to an 8 game league schedule and stopping there. I have no idea who that might be, because there are no options where the pluses clearly outweigh the minuses.

My question would be: How soon would OU and OSU move to the SEC?

I have heard several options but don't necessarily believe or trust the reasoning.
I have heard that the State of Oklahoma would push a Sovereign Immunity as a path to reducing the economic impact to just exit fees. This might take years and could just as easily prove unsuccessful so I find it doubtful.

The better possibility would be the networks claiming diminished value should Baylor be expelled or hit with some really punitive sanctions. While not likely (unfortunately) it seems more likely than the first and the contract does stipulate content for 10 schools and agreement upon a 10th at this point might be hard to attain and the networks may or may not want to keep those contracts.

The earliest date all things being equal would be for OU and OSU to put in a notice of intent to leave in 2023 and serve the last two years until the end of the GOR. That way the avoid the exit fee and wait out the GOR.

They could risk an earlier announcement 2021 and could probably afford a negotiated exit at that point. But that's a best guess. Of course their leaving could trigger a run and that might the negotiated settlement easier.

But I agree with the reasoning expressed so far. Without OU is KU really worth it to the Big 10? I don't think so. They help with the Big 10's need which is a football brand to increase their content value in the conference. And the Big 10 already carries most of Kansas's major markets. So I don't think so.

To keep the RRR in the face of larger conferences should UT and OU find themselves under different logos would require OSU to travel with OU. That leaves the PAC and the SEC as the only two conferences that might take both of them. Whichever did might also attract Texas.

With Notre Dame strongly affiliated and Oklahoma off the market the pressure will never be greater for Texas to move. If the Horns do move then realignment for the foreseeable future is over and we likely move to a champs only scenario which is what ultimately will make N.D. decide.

As I look at UT's options, I don't see one that gives them fully what I think they want. I believe they want to be viewed as an academic peer of highly regarded universities. Specifically, of eastern universities. The PAC has a few schools (like Cal and Stanford) that would satisfy that desire. There are other excellent schools in the PAC, but they aren't necessarily the names you think of unless you live on the west coast.

A lot of those schools are in the ACC (like Georgia Tech, UNC, Virginia, Duke, Pitt, Miami). But I don't believe the ACC really wants them and their baggage, especially if OU is off the table. The B1G has a bunch of schools that suit their eye, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that they would get an invite there either.

There are no G5 schools that are both academic elite and top shelf athletically as well. Adding schools from the G5 to have a CCG had no appeal for them, and I don't think adding them to get back to 10 (or 12) would either. If they are stuck in a B12 minus OU, they might as well consider adding someone like BYU for football only just to get to an 8 game league schedule without adding any inconvenience in Olympic sport travel.

My crystal ball says no P5 realignment activity for about five years, and UT stays in the Big 12 even then, where they can be (or believe they are) the big dog.

Ken D that perspective is as good as any, but with UT you just never know. The one point I'm not sold on is 5-6 years. The desire to get out is current. Should Baylor at least lose their vote as part of conference punishment, which is more likely than expulsion, it would only take 7 to dissolve. Personally I think Texas will take Tech and seek entry into the next best thing to what they have, a division of either the PAC or SEC in which they have their old SWC and Big 12 friends.

I would submit that if the SEC moves to 16 with OU and OSU, which is more likely that folks realize, then Texas and Tech could put us at 18. Sure they don't like what the SEC offers academically, but they have chose since their inception to sacrifice academic associations to keep neighbors close. Give them a division of Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas and Texas Tech with a cross division permanent rival of Texas A&M and Florida and I think they could buy into that.

Yes they are a royal pain in the butt, but in the SEC they are just one pain in the but out of 18 at that point. Even if they control 4 votes it isn't enough to even block legislation. They make oodles of cash, get to pretend to be the Kings of their division, the LHN becomes the SECNetwork West and helps with the transmissions in Spanish to TotalView in Mexico where the SECN will be broadcast in over 22 cities, and they play folks that make their donors happy.

It suits ESPN's purposes as well. They can rotate playing Virginia, North Carolina, Notre Dame and Duke and feel just fine. The money is kept in house at ESPN and we both prosper.

If ESPN can utilize them to get a piece of the PACN as some have suggested then maybe they take their Texas buddies with them. But personally with the options available to the PAC to cut FOX and ESPN out and go with Amazon I don't think that will happen, which leads us back to the SEC where they can keep friends.

I certainly could be wrong about that but its the feel I have for the situation given the 3 past times Texas has held conversations with us since '91.

And for the record if the Big 12 passes into history I strongly believe that a champs only will arise and with it full inclusion for N.D. in the ACC.

JR, there are a lot of big assumptions here. The first is that the P5 will be able to autonomously change the NCAA scheduling rules in order to allow for three divisions instead of two, and that they also permit a four team conference playoff. That would, in turn, require guarantees that enough B12 members will find a home in a P4 conference that they would agree to go to, and that they would vote to dissolve the Big 12.

Another change would require moving the start of the regular season up by a week. This isn't hard, since the camel already got his nose under the tent with the change to "Week Zero" games to benefit Hawaii.

It would only take 7 votes to dissolve the Big 12 if Baylor were stripped of their vote. But it takes 8 votes to strip that vote, and Baylor would have a vote. I think that's a long shot.

There is one attraction to allowing three divisions you haven't touched on. Yes, it allows an 18 team conference to have 3 six team divisions. But it could just as easily work for 15 team conferences, or even 12. The problem here is that if the PAC didn't like the 3 teams available to them in order to expand to 15, and chose to stay at 12, then there aren't enough Big 12 votes to dissolve in the first place, and the whole plan either collapses (or at least gets very expensive) or has to be deferred until near the end of the B12 GoR.

Here is the only scenario I could come up with that makes everything work. After the SEC takes UT, TT, OU and OSU, there are six B12 members left. The ACC wants none of them, if they are going to have to accommodate ND as a full member (bringing them to 15). The B1G goes along, accepting Kansas as their only acquisition (something we have both said is not likely). Now they are at 15.

Now there are five remaining B12 schools available to the PAC: Kansas St, Iowa St, TCU, Baylor and West Virginia. They clearly won't want West Virginia, and almost surely won't want Baylor, so they have to convince the other three to join, and persuade 9 current members to invite those three. That means that one of the mountain schools would have to be assured of being in the California division.

Now you have placed 8, giving you the votes you need to dissolve (without even having to vote to expel Baylor or strip them of their vote). My take, though, is that all this is way too complicated to piece together. Further, it requires the reluctant cooperation of three other conferences, all of whom would see clearly that this scheme benefits the SEC far more than it does any of them. So why would they go along?

It is this conclusion that leads me to say that the SEC can ultimately get what it wants, but not in the next few years and not thanks to cooperation from other conferences..
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2017 09:46 AM by ken d.)
05-20-2017 09:42 AM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #178
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I'm not sure how much weight Nebraska has in the Big 10, but you can guarantee they'll be fighting tooth and nail to keep Texas out. Texas is the reason why they left to begin with. It'd be interesting to see how Texas reacts to actually having to play nice for once, though. I doubt Ohio State and Michigan would put up with their shenanigans for long.

As for the OP, I just don't see Oklahoma as a good fit for the Big 10. As awkward of a fit as Rutgers is, it makes more sense than Oklahoma does. Academics at Oklahoma have never really been up to the Big 10's level, and the culture down there's more Southern/Southwestern than Midwestern. Kansas would at least make sense. I'm sure the conference itself would love Oklahoma, but the presidents outside of Lincoln would have a different view.
05-20-2017 09:47 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #179
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
BTW, the B1G divisions in the scenario I mentioned above would be:

Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers, Purdue, Indiana
Ohio St, Michigan, Michigan St, Illinois, Northwestern
Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas

In the ACC:

Florida St, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Miami, Wake Forest
Notre Dame, Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville
Virginia Tech, Virginia, UNC, Duke, NC State

Presumably, Baylor and West Virginia would wind up in the AAC, which could now legitimately claim to be the 5th best conference in the FBS, and the undisputed strongest conference in the G5.
05-20-2017 09:55 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #180
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
Oklahoma & Kansas to the B1G
Oklahoma State & TCU to the SEC
Texas & Houston to the PAC-14

The Big 12 reorganizes itself as the Southwest Conference
Air Force
BYU
Colorado State
Iowa State
Kansas State
Navy (Football-Only)
New Mexico
Rice
SMU
Texas Tech
Tulsa
Wichita State (Full-Member)

The American backfills
Central Florida
Cincinnati
UConn
ECU
Memphis
Temple
Tulane
Southern Mississippi
South Florida
West Virginia
05-20-2017 10:55 AM
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