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MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #121
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
Wright State is the bizarre one. They have support at a high mid-major level, but minimal gate revenue (nor concessions) a low contributions. This program should not be hand to mouth, dependent on institutional money transfers. Something is very wrong with the Athletic Department administration there.

Dayton really loves it's Basketball, look at Dayton's attendance as well.
07-20-2017 11:03 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #122
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
If you put aside Wright's financial/administrative problems with it's athletic dept ... wonder if MVC would have any interest in this program?
07-20-2017 11:08 AM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #123
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 10:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If we use one proxy statistic, avg attendance, the MVC teams are somewhat higher than the Horizon teams.

Below numbers are from the 2015-16 season, because the NCAA hasn't released the 2016-17 figures for some stupid reason.


MVC:
Bradley 5953
Drake 3087
Evansville 5147
ILL St 5199
IN St 3672
Loyola Chi 1831
MO St 4140
UNI 5378
SIU 5277
Valpo 3572 **

Horizon:
Cleveland St 1911
Detroit 2121
Green Bay 3029
IUPUI 1055 **
Milkwaukee 2667
NKU 2296 *
Oakland 3097
UIC 3166
Wright St 4355
YSU 2013


* - not eligible for post season in 2015-16 (still transitioning divisions)
** - were in different conf in 2015-16

Valpo goes from the 2nd highest in the Horizon to the 3rd lowest in MVC. That is more than "somewhat higher"

Numerically, it is 2500 vs 4300 average -- huge difference
07-20-2017 11:37 AM
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DavidSt Online
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Post: #124
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 11:03 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Wright State is the bizarre one. They have support at a high mid-major level, but minimal gate revenue (nor concessions) a low contributions. This program should not be hand to mouth, dependent on institutional money transfers. Something is very wrong with the Athletic Department administration there.

Dayton really loves it's Basketball, look at Dayton's attendance as well.

I still think for the AAC to get a better TV contract, they need to grab the best schools out there to be a P6 conference. That includes the best basketball schools. Dayton may love to join the AAC. Lets say the AAC go to 18 teams?

UMass. all sports
Dayton Olympics
VCU olympics
BYU all sports or football only
Boise State football only
San Diego State football only
Toledo all sports
Southern Mississippi all sports
Old dominion all sports

All sports:
UConn.
Cincinnati
East Carolina
UCF
USF
Old Dominion (partner up with East Carolina)
Memphis
Southern Mississippi
Tulane
Houston
SMU
Wichita State
Tulsa
Dayton
VCU
Temple
UMass.
Saint Louis

The A-10 gets decimated of their basketball schools.

Football:
East:
UConn.
U.Mass.
East Carolina
Old Dominion
UCF
USF
Temple
Cincinnati

West:
Houston
SMU
Tulane
Tulsa
Navy (football only)
Boise State (football only)
BYU (football only)
Southern Mississippi

16 team football. 18 basketball.
07-20-2017 11:43 AM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #125
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 11:37 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 10:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If we use one proxy statistic, avg attendance, the MVC teams are somewhat higher than the Horizon teams.

Below numbers are from the 2015-16 season, because the NCAA hasn't released the 2016-17 figures for some stupid reason.


MVC:
Bradley 5953
Drake 3087
Evansville 5147
ILL St 5199
IN St 3672
Loyola Chi 1831
MO St 4140
UNI 5378
SIU 5277
Valpo 3572 **

Horizon:
Cleveland St 1911
Detroit 2121
Green Bay 3029
IUPUI 1055 **
Milkwaukee 2667
NKU 2296 *
Oakland 3097
UIC 3166
Wright St 4355
YSU 2013


* - not eligible for post season in 2015-16 (still transitioning divisions)
** - were in different conf in 2015-16

Valpo goes from the 2nd highest in the Horizon to the 3rd lowest in MVC. That is more than "somewhat higher"

Numerically, it is 2500 vs 4300 average -- huge difference

The worst two basketball arenas in the Valley are the two new additions from the Horizon.
07-20-2017 12:33 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #126
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
Fort Wayne plays in a 13k arena. That doesn't necessarily prove anything.
07-20-2017 12:35 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #127
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 12:33 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 11:37 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 10:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If we use one proxy statistic, avg attendance, the MVC teams are somewhat higher than the Horizon teams.

Below numbers are from the 2015-16 season, because the NCAA hasn't released the 2016-17 figures for some stupid reason.


MVC:
Bradley 5953
Drake 3087
Evansville 5147
ILL St 5199
IN St 3672
Loyola Chi 1831
MO St 4140
UNI 5378
SIU 5277
Valpo 3572 **

Horizon:
Cleveland St 1911
Detroit 2121
Green Bay 3029
IUPUI 1055 **
Milkwaukee 2667
NKU 2296 *
Oakland 3097
UIC 3166
Wright St 4355
YSU 2013


* - not eligible for post season in 2015-16 (still transitioning divisions)
** - were in different conf in 2015-16

Valpo goes from the 2nd highest in the Horizon to the 3rd lowest in MVC. That is more than "somewhat higher"

Numerically, it is 2500 vs 4300 average -- huge difference

The worst two basketball arenas in the Valley are the two new additions from the Horizon.

The Loyola addition still puzzles me.
07-20-2017 12:42 PM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #128
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 12:42 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 12:33 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 11:37 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 10:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If we use one proxy statistic, avg attendance, the MVC teams are somewhat higher than the Horizon teams.

Below numbers are from the 2015-16 season, because the NCAA hasn't released the 2016-17 figures for some stupid reason.


MVC:
Bradley 5953
Drake 3087
Evansville 5147
ILL St 5199
IN St 3672
Loyola Chi 1831
MO St 4140
UNI 5378
SIU 5277
Valpo 3572 **

Horizon:
Cleveland St 1911
Detroit 2121
Green Bay 3029
IUPUI 1055 **
Milkwaukee 2667
NKU 2296 *
Oakland 3097
UIC 3166
Wright St 4355
YSU 2013


* - not eligible for post season in 2015-16 (still transitioning divisions)
** - were in different conf in 2015-16

Valpo goes from the 2nd highest in the Horizon to the 3rd lowest in MVC. That is more than "somewhat higher"

Numerically, it is 2500 vs 4300 average -- huge difference

The worst two basketball arenas in the Valley are the two new additions from the Horizon.

The Loyola addition still puzzles me.

Academics, market, and endowment. Should have went with UIC IMO if we were going to Chicago.
07-20-2017 01:42 PM
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Post: #129
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 09:43 AM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 12:31 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 08:32 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 04:05 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  At this point, there's not much of a difference between the Valley and Horizon. It's a lateral move.

Valley has better facilities, attendance, budgets, television deal and better all-around sports league.

But just barely. It's like the difference between eating at IHOP over Denny's. If you want, then the difference between shopping at Kroger over Wal-Mart for groceries.

No its not. There is still a big difference between the MVC and Horizon.

I disagree other than that the Valley is better. But losing Wichita and Creighton means it's not what it was.

And again the main reason the Valley is better is because they took Valpo. Any other factors like TV and attendance only help so much. If you asked a fan that only tunes in March which conference UIC or Loyola is given the choice of only these two leagues, they'd be throwing darts.
07-20-2017 02:46 PM
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Post: #130
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 01:42 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Academics, market, and endowment. Should have went with UIC IMO if we were going to Chicago.

Agreed 100%.
07-20-2017 02:53 PM
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Post: #131
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 02:46 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 09:43 AM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 12:31 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 08:32 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 04:05 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  At this point, there's not much of a difference between the Valley and Horizon. It's a lateral move.

Valley has better facilities, attendance, budgets, television deal and better all-around sports league.

But just barely. It's like the difference between eating at IHOP over Denny's. If you want, then the difference between shopping at Kroger over Wal-Mart for groceries.

No its not. There is still a big difference between the MVC and Horizon.

I disagree other than that the Valley is better. But losing Wichita and Creighton means it's not what it was.

And again the main reason the Valley is better is because they took Valpo. Any other factors like TV and attendance only help so much. If you asked a fan that only tunes in March which conference UIC or Loyola is given the choice of only these two leagues, they'd be throwing darts.

No the Valley is better overall than Horizon even if we had took a different team than Valpo.
07-20-2017 02:59 PM
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Post: #132
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 02:59 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 02:46 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 09:43 AM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(07-20-2017 12:31 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(07-19-2017 08:32 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Valley has better facilities, attendance, budgets, television deal and better all-around sports league.

But just barely. It's like the difference between eating at IHOP over Denny's. If you want, then the difference between shopping at Kroger over Wal-Mart for groceries.

No its not. There is still a big difference between the MVC and Horizon.

I disagree other than that the Valley is better. But losing Wichita and Creighton means it's not what it was.

And again the main reason the Valley is better is because they took Valpo. Any other factors like TV and attendance only help so much. If you asked a fan that only tunes in March which conference UIC or Loyola is given the choice of only these two leagues, they'd be throwing darts.

No the Valley is better overall than Horizon even if we had took a different team than Valpo.

Virtually all the Valley teams have made a deep run in the tourney. Bradley, Drake, Indiana St. and Loyola (and Loyola does have a championship banner) all have a final 4. For the Horizon few have made deep runs. Creighton and Wichita St. have not historically been far above the Valley average, only in recent years.
07-20-2017 03:33 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #133
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
All MVC teams either made the Sweet 16 (NIowa, SIllinois, Bradley, MoSt, Valpo), finished top 25 (Drake), or got an at-large bid (Evansville) in the last 20 years.

The 3 exceptions are either a current relevant midmajor (IlSt) or was part of something historically significant (Loyola-national title, InSt-undefeated til '79 title game, most viewed college game ever, Bird).

Even if you think Horizon/MVC will be even moving forward, it's still better odds to put your $ on the league with programs who have history (+attendance). Worst case scenario, Valpo makes a lateral move but acquires 2 in-state rivals and a 50/50 public/private split that's a wash geographically.
07-20-2017 04:31 PM
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Post: #134
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 02:59 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  No the Valley is better overall than Horizon even if we had took a different team than Valpo.

I never said it wasn't overall. But the difference isn't outstanding. Someone sighted attendance. Unless the Valley's average attendance is 7-8K or they have 2-3 teams drawing 10k+, then it doesn't make a major difference. As I said, it's better but as much of a difference as shopping at Marshall's versus Ross. Or if you want, shopping at the Gap versus either of them. It's not like I'd snub one for any of those others.
07-21-2017 01:53 AM
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Post: #135
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-20-2017 03:33 PM)bullet Wrote:  Virtually all the Valley teams have made a deep run in the tourney. Bradley, Drake, Indiana St. and Loyola (and Loyola does have a championship banner) all have a final 4. For the Horizon few have made deep runs. Creighton and Wichita St. have not historically been far above the Valley average, only in recent years.

You're bringing up stuff from so long ago, none of the current players were close to born. None of the current Valley has a recent pedigree of sustained success. Wichita had been to the Sweet 16 in four different decades. Creighton doesn't have the NCAA Tournament resume but has a huge fanbase.

Are you gonna throw Bradley's Final Four runs into this? Like when they just fell short of a national title at 19-13 (15-12 before the Dance)? Or way back in 1950? They snuck in the Dance one year and had a solid run but nothing else recently. Indiana State was the definition of a one-hit wonder. Loyola may have had 5 really good teams ever and none in a very long time.
07-21-2017 02:44 AM
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DavidSt Online
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RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
MVC is dead. They were dead for adding schools that did not have history for basketball tournaments and all that. MVC have gone down the ladder with their major players are now gone. Missouri State would be the next one to go. There are already schools with football in the conference having wandering eyes for several years now to leave that play football. Those schools were in talks to join for a football merger with the WAC for FBS until they get full invites to another conference. This would have include the Summit and Youngstown State schools that have football. MVFC does have the clout to be consider an FBS conference. They are at that level as the MAC on how they play. I would be glad to see the football schools divorced from the basketball schools from this conference. This conference is a sinking ship like the Big East was. CAA is also a sinking ship as well with the football schools fighting with the basketball schools over which schools they want into the conference. The football schools wanted Stony Brook and Albany to join as full members, but the basketball schools blocked those two schools. That is why there are rumors of all the football schools are looking to join another conference that could satisfy their needs.
07-21-2017 09:19 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #137
RE: MVC official announcement: Valpo gets the only invitation
(07-21-2017 02:44 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  You're bringing up stuff from so long ago, none of the current players were close to born. None of the current Valley has a recent pedigree of sustained success. Wichita had been to the Sweet 16 in four different decades. Creighton doesn't have the NCAA Tournament resume but has a huge fanbase.

Are you gonna throw Bradley's Final Four runs into this? Like when they just fell short of a national title at 19-13 (15-12 before the Dance)? Or way back in 1950? They snuck in the Dance one year and had a solid run but nothing else recently. Indiana State was the definition of a one-hit wonder. Loyola may have had 5 really good teams ever and none in a very long time.

It all depends on what we ultimately are looking at.

It could be argued that the two more important, objective outside measures of a basketball conference are: 1) how much the NCAAT selection committee respects them, and 2) how much TV broadcasters value them.


In those two critical measures, I think it could be argued that going forward the MVC has lost much of whatever edge it had over the Horizon. Even last year, a worthy ILL St team was ignored by the committee. And it will remain to be seen how much more TV value the new MVC has over the Horizon.
07-21-2017 09:37 AM
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