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Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #81
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
One aspect of this I'm trying to understand is the FBS slant. I'm not sure this necessarily best positions the schools involved for an FBS move. Idaho, the Montana's, E Washington, ND St, and SD St are either FBS ready or close to it but UND and USD aren't. On the other hand, you've also got other schools in the Big Sky and MVFC that could also be in the transition discussion. Missouri St, Illinois St, Youngstown St? Sacramento St? Wouldn't you also want to try to get NMSU involved in an FBS gambit at least as an affiliate?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some of the super-FCS programs move up and get decent payouts for their body games either as a loose association of indies or forming an all sports league I'm not positive UND and USD are ready.
05-08-2017 09:56 PM
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The Sicatoka Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-08-2017 09:52 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There are more people in the county of Santa Clara County than the two Dakotas combined. ...
The reality is Des Moines and Minneapolis are your nearest metros and they define you.

Don't tell us about your problems.
And for some of us the nearest metro of 500k or more just might be Winnipeg, Manitoba, eh.
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2017 09:59 PM by The Sicatoka.)
05-08-2017 09:58 PM
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The Sicatoka Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-08-2017 07:11 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 06:43 PM)billings Wrote:  cal poly and uc davis are better academically than anything in the dakotas

And both are part timers in the BSC who would jump if there was a more western based FCS conference available.

Yup. I don't view "FB only" members as in for a penny, in for a pound conference members. They're like neighbors that show up when you're grilling steaks but not when you're cleaning the garage.
05-08-2017 10:02 PM
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Post: #84
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-08-2017 09:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  One aspect of this I'm trying to understand is the FBS slant. I'm not sure this necessarily best positions the schools involved for an FBS move. Idaho, the Montana's, E Washington, ND St, and SD St are either FBS ready or close to it but UND and USD aren't. On the other hand, you've also got other schools in the Big Sky and MVFC that could also be in the transition discussion. Missouri St, Illinois St, Youngstown St? Sacramento St? Wouldn't you also want to try to get NMSU involved in an FBS gambit at least as an affiliate?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some of the super-FCS programs move up and get decent payouts for their body games either as a loose association of indies or forming an all sports league I'm not positive UND and USD are ready.

USD is renovating their dome to over 15k. They can do that as it was built originally to include basketball and track and volleyball. A separate track and an adjoining arena have now been built.

UND has preannounced that nearly $170 million in gifts will result in a major renovation on campus. Some reports from earlier in this decade was a new on campus stadium was being planned. A new 300 m indoor track has already been built, which is FBS quality. The plans include an attached stadium.

EWU doesn't have a 15k seat stadium on campus, but fundraising seems to be in high gear for one.

NMSU wouldn't likely be interested until it's a CFP conference, which may take a while.

Fully expect some other schools like Mo St and Wichita St to be interested for an FBS transition only.

But the main thing is a conference like this would give all the schools relatively financial parity with each other. The MWC and even the MAC are mostly too big of a jump up to compete with their resources. FBS gives the schools more opportunities to play major FBS schools for much bigger paydays. To play Big Ten schools again would be major for the Dakotas.
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2017 10:20 PM by NoDak.)
05-08-2017 10:04 PM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-08-2017 09:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  One aspect of this I'm trying to understand is the FBS slant. I'm not sure this necessarily best positions the schools involved for an FBS move. Idaho, the Montana's, E Washington, ND St, and SD St are either FBS ready or close to it but UND and USD aren't. On the other hand, you've also got other schools in the Big Sky and MVFC that could also be in the transition discussion. Missouri St, Illinois St, Youngstown St? Sacramento St? Wouldn't you also want to try to get NMSU involved in an FBS gambit at least as an affiliate?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some of the super-FCS programs move up and get decent payouts for their body games either as a loose association of indies or forming an all sports league I'm not positive UND and USD are ready.

EWU isn't actually all that ready either. They'd been able to keep an excellent coach around for nearly a decade which helped a lot, but when you get past that the school, alumni and facilities aren't really there. It'd be a pretty big undertaking for them.
05-08-2017 11:45 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-08-2017 11:45 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 09:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  One aspect of this I'm trying to understand is the FBS slant. I'm not sure this necessarily best positions the schools involved for an FBS move. Idaho, the Montana's, E Washington, ND St, and SD St are either FBS ready or close to it but UND and USD aren't. On the other hand, you've also got other schools in the Big Sky and MVFC that could also be in the transition discussion. Missouri St, Illinois St, Youngstown St? Sacramento St? Wouldn't you also want to try to get NMSU involved in an FBS gambit at least as an affiliate?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some of the super-FCS programs move up and get decent payouts for their body games either as a loose association of indies or forming an all sports league I'm not positive UND and USD are ready.

EWU isn't actually all that ready either. They'd been able to keep an excellent coach around for nearly a decade which helped a lot, but when you get past that the school, alumni and facilities aren't really there. It'd be a pretty big undertaking for them.


There was an article last year, if I remember correctly, that a farmer would offer up his land for EWU for a brand new football stadium that could be bigger than what they are playing in now. I heard rumors that they wanted to join the FBS. With wins over P5 schools, they could get the money raised with excitement to go FBS.

West Texas A&M also building an on campus stadium that could be expanded to 22,500. There seems to be smore that they want to rejoin D1. Why have a 22,500 seat stadium for a D2?

UTRGV also want FBS and so does Lamar. UTRGV just need the green light to add football.

Texas A&M-San Antonio and Texas A&M-Central Texas are adding sports, and want to add football with their main goal is FBS.

There seems more schools are building to go upgrade themselves.

Several Big West schools are flirting to add football. Plus, UC-San Diego did a feasibility study for football.
Azusa Pacific and Dixie State both could join the D1 rank. Dixie State got a gift to expand their stadium.
I would not be surprise if some GNAC schools make the jump. There are talks that Western Washington is saving money to go D1 and then restart football down the road.
Colorado Mesa does fit in with Idaho, Idaho State, Weber State, Southern Utah and Eastern Washington as close by opponents with Northern Colorado as well.
05-09-2017 02:43 AM
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ARSTATEFAN1986 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-09-2017 02:43 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 11:45 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 09:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  One aspect of this I'm trying to understand is the FBS slant. I'm not sure this necessarily best positions the schools involved for an FBS move. Idaho, the Montana's, E Washington, ND St, and SD St are either FBS ready or close to it but UND and USD aren't. On the other hand, you've also got other schools in the Big Sky and MVFC that could also be in the transition discussion. Missouri St, Illinois St, Youngstown St? Sacramento St? Wouldn't you also want to try to get NMSU involved in an FBS gambit at least as an affiliate?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see some of the super-FCS programs move up and get decent payouts for their body games either as a loose association of indies or forming an all sports league I'm not positive UND and USD are ready.

EWU isn't actually all that ready either. They'd been able to keep an excellent coach around for nearly a decade which helped a lot, but when you get past that the school, alumni and facilities aren't really there. It'd be a pretty big undertaking for them.


There was an article last year, if I remember correctly, that a farmer would offer up his land for EWU for a brand new football stadium that could be bigger than what they are playing in now. I heard rumors that they wanted to join the FBS. With wins over P5 schools, they could get the money raised with excitement to go FBS.

West Texas A&M also building an on campus stadium that could be expanded to 22,500. There seems to be smore that they want to rejoin D1. Why have a 22,500 seat stadium for a D2?

UTRGV also want FBS and so does Lamar. UTRGV just need the green light to add football.

Texas A&M-San Antonio and Texas A&M-Central Texas are adding sports, and want to add football with their main goal is FBS.

There seems more schools are building to go upgrade themselves.

Several Big West schools are flirting to add football. Plus, UC-San Diego did a feasibility study for football.
Azusa Pacific and Dixie State both could join the D1 rank. Dixie State got a gift to expand their stadium.
I would not be surprise if some GNAC schools make the jump. There are talks that Western Washington is saving money to go D1 and then restart football down the road.
Colorado Mesa does fit in with Idaho, Idaho State, Weber State, Southern Utah and Eastern Washington as close by opponents with Northern Colorado as well.

Wanting to go from DII to FBS is ridiculous!!!03-banghead03-banghead03-banghead03-banghead03-banghead
05-09-2017 10:49 AM
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Post: #88
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
With the MVC and Horizon both talking 12 members, this scenario is setting up nicely.
05-10-2017 07:09 PM
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Post: #89
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 07:09 PM)NoDak Wrote:  With the MVC and Horizon both talking 12 members, this scenario is setting up nicely.
Say the Summit drops to eight which seems possible.
If they added UI, UM, MSU, and EWU some Eastern members would try to find new conferences.
The perfect Western Six would be
UI, UM, MSU, EWU, PSU, and Denver/Seattle.

Eastern Dakota four NIU and Omaha I guess
05-10-2017 08:36 PM
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Post: #90
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
Be careful what you wish for.

If the MVC goes to 12 with Murray State and Milwaukee, the Horizon goes to 12 with IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC, and Omaha, the WAC gets back to 8 with ORU, and the OVC gets back to 12 with WIU, the Summit is down to five schools. There's no guarantee the Summit would be able to rebuild in time.
05-10-2017 08:54 PM
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Post: #91
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 08:36 PM)MJG Wrote:  Say the Summit drops to eight which seems possible.

At this point, scary so. Visible things are in motion with the MVC moves. I could see the IUPUI and IPFW shopping now that the Horizon has taken a hit. That would probably mean WIU would start looking, and Omaha has had a visit.

To me the best scenario should the Summit rapidly dissolve is the "Dakota 4" (state name schools) pairing up with the similar Big Sky schools (state name schools: Idaho, Montana, Montana State). They'd probably want EWU. There's 8 FB. If they grabbed (no FB) Denver and Omaha there's an 8/10 FB/BB alignment. Not bad.

I still think better would be a 9/12 -- so try to get Weber State and UMKC?

Why 9/12? That's 8 FB games (4H/4R, round robin) and 22 BB games assumably with true travel partners.
05-10-2017 09:22 PM
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Post: #92
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
I know Omaha was visited, but I think that was more to rattle the Summit's cage and remind everyone of the pecking order.

If the I-29 Summit schools want more and better they're going to have to build it for themselves.
05-10-2017 09:24 PM
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Post: #93
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 09:22 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:36 PM)MJG Wrote:  Say the Summit drops to eight which seems possible.

At this point, scary so. Visible things are in motion with the MVC moves. I could see the IUPUI and IPFW shopping now that the Horizon has taken a hit. That would probably mean WIU would start looking, and Omaha has had a visit.

To me the best scenario should the Summit rapidly dissolve is the "Dakota 4" (state name schools) pairing up with the similar Big Sky schools (state name schools: Idaho, Montana, Montana State). They'd probably want EWU. There's 8 FB. If they grabbed (no FB) Denver and Omaha there's an 8/10 FB/BB alignment. Not bad.

I still think better would be a 9/12 -- so try to get Weber State and UMKC?

Why 9/12? That's 8 FB games (4H/4R, round robin) and 22 BB games assumably with true travel partners.

Why not Northern Colorado instead of Weber State? Sure, Weber is better athletically. But, UNC makes a natural travel partner for Denver and has a long history in the old NCC with the Dakotas and Omaha.

The Montanas are understandably resistant. But, I like the idea of flagship and land-grant (state name) schools sticking together. The Dakotas could add the Montanas to their critical mass of similar schools in the North.
05-10-2017 09:34 PM
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Post: #94
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 08:54 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Be careful what you wish for.

If the MVC goes to 12 with Murray State and Milwaukee, the Horizon goes to 12 with IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC, and Omaha, the WAC gets back to 8 with ORU, and the OVC gets back to 12 with WIU, the Summit is down to five schools. There's no guarantee the Summit would be able to rebuild in time.

The Idaho, Montana and Dakota flagships are so similar, they is a natural law of attraction. UND had already had a pact with the Montanas and Idaho, where Idaho had an agreement with the Big Sky that Idaho could back out if the other three were gone. Something has been up for some time. As I have posted before, the ND and Montana schools have longed to be together. Idaho will do whatever the Montanas want and the SD schools will go where ever the ND schools go. EWU will tag along with Idaho.

Was wrong about the WAC because I didn't realize that the NCAA would waive the FBS rule. That was almost the unanimous opinion here too, so nobody gets on themselves for getting something totally wrong, but since I said the WAC would be an FBS vehicle for those schools, I'm the idiot.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 09:46 PM by NoDak.)
05-10-2017 09:43 PM
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Post: #95
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 09:34 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 09:22 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:36 PM)MJG Wrote:  Say the Summit drops to eight which seems possible.

At this point, scary so. Visible things are in motion with the MVC moves. I could see the IUPUI and IPFW shopping now that the Horizon has taken a hit. That would probably mean WIU would start looking, and Omaha has had a visit.

To me the best scenario should the Summit rapidly dissolve is the "Dakota 4" (state name schools) pairing up with the similar Big Sky schools (state name schools: Idaho, Montana, Montana State). They'd probably want EWU. There's 8 FB. If they grabbed (no FB) Denver and Omaha there's an 8/10 FB/BB alignment. Not bad.

I still think better would be a 9/12 -- so try to get Weber State and UMKC?

Why 9/12? That's 8 FB games (4H/4R, round robin) and 22 BB games assumably with true travel partners.

Why not Northern Colorado instead of Weber State? Sure, Weber is better athletically. But, UNC makes a natural travel partner for Denver and has a long history in the old NCC with the Dakotas and Omaha.

The Montanas are understandably resistant. But, I like the idea of flagship and land-grant (state name) schools sticking together. The Dakotas could add the Montanas to their critical mass of similar schools in the North.

The problem is that N Colo has no money for facilities and few big donors or endowment. It can't compete with nearby UC and Colo St either for FBS. Think FBS is the goal and N Colo just hasn't shown that ability financially.

All the other schools have taken their FB teams to the upper FCS level. N Colo is just a bottom feeder even in performance within a low level DI league.

Weber St is a relatively short drive from the SLC airport, which is a Delta hub for most of those schools. Weber St also has very desirable facilities and has shown a continuing ability to improve them.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 10:01 PM by NoDak.)
05-10-2017 09:52 PM
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Post: #96
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 09:24 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  I know Omaha was visited, but I think that was more to rattle the Summit's cage and remind everyone of the pecking order.

If the I-29 Summit schools want more and better they're going to have to build it for themselves.

If Omaha and UMKC get offered a Horizon League bid, which would be a lot of air travel, think they both would take it. Omaha wasn't too enamored with the old NCC either, as they were a later addition. Travel to the Montanas would be nearly as expensive as direct shots in the Horizon. Hockey could be a difference maker though. Think Omaha could be successful at something like M/W lacrosse too, and future changes are something Omaha needs to consider.
05-10-2017 09:57 PM
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Post: #97
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 09:22 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:36 PM)MJG Wrote:  Say the Summit drops to eight which seems possible.

At this point, scary so. Visible things are in motion with the MVC moves. I could see the IUPUI and IPFW shopping now that the Horizon has taken a hit. That would probably mean WIU would start looking, and Omaha has had a visit.

To me the best scenario should the Summit rapidly dissolve is the "Dakota 4" (state name schools) pairing up with the similar Big Sky schools (state name schools: Idaho, Montana, Montana State). They'd probably want EWU. There's 8 FB. If they grabbed (no FB) Denver and Omaha there's an 8/10 FB/BB alignment. Not bad.

I still think better would be a 9/12 -- so try to get Weber State and UMKC?

Why 9/12? That's 8 FB games (4H/4R, round robin) and 22 BB games assumably with true travel partners.

One doesn't want to really torque off the Big Sky by immediately endangering it by taking Weber St or N Colo right away. This separation needs to be fairly amicable. Nothing worse than a bloody divorce. The Montanas and Idaho still want games in all sports against those very teams.

The new Big Sky could be this Northern Tier's feeder league, much as the Slummit has fed the MVC and Horizon over the years. Think both the MVC and Horizon realize that there won't be any more Summit League in the Midwest, so they both will stock up on schools.
05-10-2017 10:08 PM
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Post: #98
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-10-2017 09:52 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 09:34 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 09:22 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:36 PM)MJG Wrote:  Say the Summit drops to eight which seems possible.

At this point, scary so. Visible things are in motion with the MVC moves. I could see the IUPUI and IPFW shopping now that the Horizon has taken a hit. That would probably mean WIU would start looking, and Omaha has had a visit.

To me the best scenario should the Summit rapidly dissolve is the "Dakota 4" (state name schools) pairing up with the similar Big Sky schools (state name schools: Idaho, Montana, Montana State). They'd probably want EWU. There's 8 FB. If they grabbed (no FB) Denver and Omaha there's an 8/10 FB/BB alignment. Not bad.

I still think better would be a 9/12 -- so try to get Weber State and UMKC?

Why 9/12? That's 8 FB games (4H/4R, round robin) and 22 BB games assumably with true travel partners.

Why not Northern Colorado instead of Weber State? Sure, Weber is better athletically. But, UNC makes a natural travel partner for Denver and has a long history in the old NCC with the Dakotas and Omaha.

The Montanas are understandably resistant. But, I like the idea of flagship and land-grant (state name) schools sticking together. The Dakotas could add the Montanas to their critical mass of similar schools in the North.

The problem is that N Colo has no money for facilities and few big donors or endowment. It can't compete with nearby UC and Colo St either for FBS. Think FBS is the goal and N Colo just hasn't shown that ability financially.

All the other schools have taken their FB teams to the upper FCS level. N Colo is just a bottom feeder even in performance within a low level DI league.

Weber St is a relatively short drive from the SLC airport, which is a Delta hub for most of those schools. Weber St also has very desirable facilities and has shown a continuing ability to improve them.

Got it, re: UNC. If FBS is the goal, they can't pull that off. The Front Range is maxed out with FBS schools as it is. Can Weber State move up, surrounded by Utah, BYU, and USU? I'm sure they're in a better position than UNC.

SLC-DEN is an easy flight for road trips and travel partners.
05-10-2017 10:10 PM
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Post: #99
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
As known, Omaha has been working the phones, and W Ill, ORU, IPFW and IUPUI are most assuredly doing the same. Nobody want to be stuck with the Dakota-4 or worse yet, for them, Montanas and Idaho.
05-10-2017 10:12 PM
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
Would the competing egos involved be able to work together in is proposed league? The Dakota 4, particularly NDSU, are used to ruling the roost and getting their way. Ditto for the Montanas. This is the FCS equivalent of trying to drop Alabama, Ohio St, Texas, and USC all together and expecting them to get along and reach a consensus.

I really don't see the Horizon or MVC reaching out and trying to grab Omaha or UMKC. Even if both the MVC and Horizon expand aggressively and land at 12 I think the remainder of the Summit--I expect all 4 Dakotas, Omaha, Denver, Oral Roberts, and likely WIU all to still be there--is still stronger than the WAC and thus won't be on the verge of collapse.

Omaha and UMKC are not headed to the Horizon. The league needs a St Louis presence before it leaves it's Great Lakes footprint and tries to stake it's flag on the Great Plains as well.
05-10-2017 10:16 PM
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